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Signing Up For An Epidural

9K views 166 replies 68 participants last post by  leafwood 
#1 ·
One of my husband's friends just knew she wanted an epidural. She decided this before her son's birth, and followed through with that plan.

If you made the same decision before one of your children's births, how and why did you come to that decision?

I'm just trying to understand where she's coming from.

Thanks,
Lydia
 
#128 ·
I just wish that in the US we had more alternatives. For example, women laboring in other countries have the option of using nitrous oxide. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1523-536X.2006.00150.x?prevSearch=$%7BresultBean.text%7 D&cookieSet=1

I can see the need for epidurals at certain points -- with my 1st two labors I had them after a certain point. I didn't with my third. I am still struggling with the idea of homebirth, b/c I never like all or nothing choices/decisions.
 
#129 ·
i have friends who signed up for the epi, and i didnt understand it then and dont now. if youre going to want it, then maybe learn about it (my first friend, she wasnt sure, ended up wanting it after the doc gave her pit when she promised not to...and never was told that paralyzation is a risk until after the fact, she found out and FREAKED out.) and then decide. dont ust "oh whooho, no pain and everything s hunkie dorie. there are real risks a lot of people dont understand or know about


they tried to force it on me, i had a pit induced first birth, and had argued with me, finally they set it up when i was in the bathroom. still refused, they got mad and laughed at me saying id want it later over and over... yeah.

made me more against them than i was unless youre having some sort of traumatic experience, not just "oh i hurt." ive seen people who will admit they had very little pain, i know its mamas choice but i dont get why youd take the risk if it doesnt hurt much to begin with, kwim?
 
#130 ·
We are talking about epis before labor gets going and before the pain is intense -- correct? Why? One is fear of pain and experience with past labors. Second, it is just how birth is administered in this country. It is mainstream, doctors recommend it. The majority of women get them, it would be going aginst the grain and involve serious questioning to not get one. It is seriously outside of the mainstream to consider a natural birth. It is part of American culture to go along with the mainstream, to not question authority and do as everyone else does.

If a woman is in pain and needs one, I do not fault her. If a woman is traumatized from her last birth, I understand that. If a woman is caught up in mainstream and doesn't even see that there are people questioning -- I completely understand that too. What I fault is the system that doesn't present options. When I went to see my midwife for my first birth and said I wanted a natural birth -- he (yes he!) said great! However, he never asked me how I planned to go forward or what I was going to do to manage the pain. Why not? I was completley unprepared for birth much less a posterior positioned birth. He was a great midwife and b/c of him I am so thankful I did not get a c-section, or have vacuum or forceps used -- instead he let me push for over 4 hours. But why, why didn't he help me prepare? Encourage me to read about the Bradley Method or Hypnosis? Or Penny Simkin? It is the entire system that is the problem, not the individual women who sucuumbs to it.
 
#131 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
What I fault is the system that doesn't present options. When I went to see my midwife for my first birth and said I wanted a natural birth -- he (yes he!) said great! However, he never asked me how I planned to go forward or what I was going to do to manage the pain. Why not? I was completley unprepared for birth much less a posterior positioned birth. He was a great midwife and b/c of him I am so thankful I did not get a c-section, or have vacuum or forceps used -- instead he let me push for over 4 hours. But why, why didn't he help me prepare? Encourage me to read about the Bradley Method or Hypnosis? Or Penny Simkin? It is the entire system that is the problem, not the individual women who sucuumbs to it.
Pushing for 4 hours??? UGH!!!!
: This is an interesting question. I had wondered this too about my first MW who did a great job keeping baby safe and healthy when there was emergency, and keeping the medical staff away from me with their c-sec and forceps....but she didn't offer any support to me with my pain. I had wondered: is it fair to expect the MW to do that as well? How much of this was her responsibility and how much was mine? I am not sure I have answers yet to that question.
 
#132 ·
for me part of going with a midwife and not a doctor was because i wanted someone to expect me to take control over my own birth and my own body. To own my experience, therefore I didnt expect her to offer techniques or to teach me about them. If I wanted someone who was going to tell me what to do I would have used a doctor, if my midwife would have done that I think I would have gotten angry... but then again I like my midwife because she is really hands off. basically it is borderline UC.

To me part of the natural birth experience is research and empowerment. It is my job to have the birth that I want.
ETA:
Maybe that is why it is important to find the type of midwife that we each need and why interviewing them and asking them what they help you with is important. I basically just need a midwife to make sure I dont die if something goes wrong, other than that... I dont want to be bothered during my pregnancy or labor.
 
#133 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emese'sMom View Post
Pushing for 4 hours??? UGH!!!!
: This is an interesting question. I had wondered this too about my first MW who did a great job keeping baby safe and healthy when there was emergency, and keeping the medical staff away from me with their c-sec and forceps....but she didn't offer any support to me with my pain. I had wondered: is it fair to expect the MW to do that as well? How much of this was her responsibility and how much was mine? I am not sure I have answers yet to that question.
Yup 4 hours.
What about just asking during the prenatal appointments what the mother plans on doing for pain management, if she appears clueless -- just telling her about the differernet options and suggesting books.

Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
for me part of going with a midwife and not a doctor was because i wanted someone to expect me to take control over my own birth and my own body. To own my experience, therefore I didnt expect her to offer techniques or to teach me about them. If I wanted someone who was going to tell me what to do I would have used a doctor, if my midwife would have done that I think I would have gotten angry... but then again I like my midwife because she is really hands off. basically it is borderline UC.

To me part of the natural birth experience is research and empowerment. It is my job to have the birth that I want.
For you, yes but that is because it appears you are operating from a greater base of knowledge than I was in 1999 when I had my first. What about people who do not have access to research? What about people who do not even know there are methods out there to research? In 1999 I did not have this knowledge. I thought you just went in there and did it. If my midwife had talked to me during my pregnancy and asked what I planned to do and said, "Well there are many theories on management during labor -- feel free to borrow my books -- i.e. Penny Simkin, the Bradley Method, etc." All I ever heard about was Lamaze, I didn't know anything else existed. Thus I had no idea that there was stuff to research.

I have seent his with my coworkers who literally have no idea that there is anything other than bearing the pain v. getting an epidural. That information is actually not just sitting there ready for others to take and absorb. Someone has to present it to them first -- so why should the role of a careprovider be purely medical? Why not also be a resource for pain management technique. If not, then the system is essentially unchanged -- women are out there floating alone and have to find out by themselves. Until there is a cultural shift, it won't change.

Right now in Chicago there is this awesome group that assists low income women and provides them with doulas and prenatal care -- part of it is to educate them on pain techniques. The results have been phenomonal.
 
#134 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
Thus I had no idea that there was stuff to research.
.
I was a woman who knew nothing about childbirth or kids because she was never going to have kids because she was too busy moving up in corporate america. I had never seen a birth. Never wanted to. Never even imagined I would. I honest to goodness thought children came at 9 months on the dot, and that labor was 5 minutes long because that is what the TV said.
I was the text book definition of ignorant.

As soon as I got pregnant I immediately started doing research. I guess I dont understand how someone could not research this on their own... but maybe it is my type A, always have to be in control, never get caught with your pants down personality... seeing how important childbirth is I would have exhausted every means imaginable to make sure that I knew everything about it.

I understand that some people arent like this and I dont expect everyone to be like this... but that is why as I said above you really have to make sure that you get the caregiver that you want and need. Ask the right questions, it really is such a personal thing that if nothing else I think we should make sure that we get a care giver that fits our needs and that will help us.

Part of the whole empowerment of birth and of taking back birth is not assuming that women dont know any better and are in need of a handholding...

eta:
"Right now in Chicago there is this awesome group that assists low income women and provides them with doulas and prenatal care -- part of it is to educate them on pain techniques. The results have been phenomonal."

this is wonderful, for those that dont have access to libraries, the internet, or books.... this is really helpful. I am glad that something is being done to help those who cant help themselves very well.
 
#135 ·
Well I guess it just depends on what sort of model you envision for women and the future. You know?


Model 1: Information is available and provided to women by careproviders and other women concerning birth, breastfeeding, etc.

Model 2: No information is provided or readily available. There is a medical model (endorsed and supported by the financial interests of various corporations) where people just follow the doc's advice. Otherwise, if people want to opt out they are forced into a subculture and need to do independent research and make independent connections.

In my view Model 2 is currently in existence. I would prefer Model 1. I understand that we here on MDC have all managed to survive and get what we want to some extent even though Model 2 is what exists. We have made independent connections, we have researched ad naseum. And we probably want a pat on the back too. Well I did it - why not her? I asked the questions…..why can't she? But don't you see that this is just a blame game? It is putting the onus on individuals to work against a system that is heavily armed and fights any dissension at all steps. In my perfect world, women have birthing choices just made available to them at a careproviders office. Women are raised in such a system so our daughters expect it. That women across families and generations talk about birthing choices, talk about breastfeeding - they can learn it from each other (the way it used to be), instead of having to go solo and learn it from a book or a webpage or hire a consultant.
 
#136 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
Model 2: No information is provided or readily available. There is a medical model (endorsed and supported by the financial interests of various corporations) where people just follow the doc's advice. Otherwise, if people want to opt out they are forced into a subculture and need to do independent research and make independent connections.

In my view Model 2 is currently in existence. I would prefer Model 1. I understand that we here on MDC have all managed to survive and get what we want to some extent even though Model 2 is what exists. We have made independent connections, we have researched ad naseum. And we probably want a pat on the back too. Well I did it - why not her? I asked the questions…..why can't she? But don't you see that this is just a blame game? It is putting the onus on individuals to work against a system that is heavily armed and fights and dissension at all steps. In my perfect world, women have birthing choices just made available to them at a careproviders office. The women are raised in such a system so our daughters expect it. That women across families and generations talk about birthing choices, talk about breastfeeding - they can learn it from each other (the way it used to be), instead of having to go solo and learn it from a book or a webpage or hire a consultant.
Except there is a great deal of informations available, if there wasnt... how would we all be here?
we dont need pat on the backs... but we also dont need to be spoonfed things. If we wanted to be spoonfed information we could have gone to an OB.
 
#137 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
Except there is a great deal of informations available, if there wasnt... how would we all be here?
we dont need pat on the backs... but we also dont need to be spoonfed things. If we wanted to be spoonfed information we could have gone to an OB.
I think you may be incorrect in your assumptions. I am betting that many people here problably did go to an OB and likely did have a bad experience at one time. Secondly, going to an OB is not necessarily the issue -- women can have good natural birth experiences with an OB involved. I know that I have had that experience with one of my labors.

I know what your experiences are -- but may I gently suggest stepping outside of your experience before you judge someone else? People cannot be held to the same benchmark as one person, objectivity is the key in this circumstance. I think it is wonderful that you did all that research -- I commend you, but not everyone will do that or think to do that and that doesn't mean they deserve to languish in a medical model.

Finally, you obviously had an inkling that something was out there that needed to be looked into. Many people do not. Good for you. Not everyone is in that position nor has access to those resources. But expecting a midwife to discuss birth management techniques is not being spoonfeed IMO. Instead, it is part of the package of providing care of birth IMO.

My experience is not everyone's and I do not expect anyone else to do what I have done. I witnesssed a homebirth during my childhood -- my mother having my younger sibling. I saw my mom breastfeed. To me birth was natural. Breastfeeding was natural. You just do it. What was there to research? I wanted to do it. Why couldn't I? I hired a midwife b/c that is what seemed natural. We never discussed pain management at all. I took the hospital offered courses on breatfeeding and childbirth. I thought I was covering all my bases and doing everything I could. I only learned about posterior positioning while in labor. I only learned during labor that it is really just hard to walk into childbirth and expect to do it naturally. Under your scenario, I am screwed b/c I expected to be spoonfed -- when in reality I am a type A personality. An overachiever and always have been. I was in lawschool at the time, got straight As the semester I delivered, won an oral argument competition 1 day before I went into labor -- but well, I wasn't spoonfed pain management techniques so I didn't learn them.


In my work I come across alot of women. I work in a very large law firm. I cannot tell you how many women want to breastfeed and want to have a natural birth. However there is simply no understanding that there is anything else out there that they need to learn to do it rather than just doing it.

This is just my opinion. In past generations and in other cultures, women teach women how to labor and how to breastfeed. Women see other women breastfeed and labor. Right now in the US there is a disconnect, that doesn't exist in our culture anymore because the medical and corproate model dominate. And if we continue to believe that this is okay as a norm, and blame women for succumbing to it -- it doesn't challenge the system, it only perpetuates it.
 
#138 ·
Certainly I see what you're getting at, 3C - but I think I understand Alma's larger point, which is that we're ultimately responsible.

Before I got pregnant (only this past May!), I was pretty much aware of two options. Discovery Health Channel specials, and something called "natural" which was done only by hairy legged weirdos in forests. With chanting. Possibly incense.

I suspected these might be extremes, but I assumed the former was not nearly as extreme as the latter.

However, I dutifully googled "natural childbirth" as well as "hospitals." And I read more than fifty books. And I am naturally suspicious, being of scientific mind. If I see a statement that says "epidurals are perfectly safe with rare side effects," I damn well want to see a footnote citing the studies that revealed the side effect rates and a list of what those side effects are.

Well, surprise, surprise, but the Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy doesn't have footnotes, and the Thinking Woman's Guide does. What To Expect has no bibliography. Ina May does. The authors may be biased, but at least they're willing to say "here's the signed, dated research. Do your own followup if you don't want to take my word for it."

I'm told I'm overly anal, but I did as much reading and study before I took a trip to Italy. I don't see why anyone wouldn't wander into a public library before taking on childbirth.
 
#139 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Writerbird View Post
Certainly I see what you're getting at, 3C - but I think I understand Alma's larger point, which is that we're ultimately responsible.

Before I got pregnant (only this past May!), I was pretty much aware of two options. Discovery Health Channel specials, and something called "natural" which was done only by hairy legged weirdos in forests. With chanting. Possibly incense.

I suspected these might be extremes, but I assumed the former was not nearly as extreme as the latter.

However, I dutifully googled "natural childbirth" as well as "hospitals." And I read more than fifty books. And I am naturally suspicious, being of scientific mind. If I see a statement that says "epidurals are perfectly safe with rare side effects," I damn well want to see a footnote citing the studies that revealed the side effect rates and a list of what those side effects are.

Well, surprise, surprise, but the Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy doesn't have footnotes, and the Thinking Woman's Guide does. What To Expect has no bibliography. Ina May does. The authors may be biased, but at least they're willing to say "here's the signed, dated research. Do your own followup if you don't want to take my word for it."

I'm told I'm overly anal, but I did as much reading and study before I took a trip to Italy. I don't see why anyone wouldn't wander into a public library before taking on childbirth.

this is exactly how I feel. I dont see how anyone cannot wander into a free public library to get educated about their options.

I think that taking what is ultimately our responsibility and putting it on our healthcare providers is exactly the reason that we are in the situation that we are... letting others made decisions for us.
 
#140 ·
Also remember in 2008 there is much more information available now and the internet is a different thing than even just 8-10 years ago.

Second, I am just amazed at the judgment against women who didn't do as we do and the lack of desire to question the system. I thought that was what I read so much about in all the threads and posts on MDC about pregnancy. But really, in the end -- the system is not being questioned? Instead the preference is to assign individual blame and judge people by our own experience rather than step outside of our experience and look at thing's objectively. This is so bothersome to me.
 
#141 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
Also remember in 2008 there is much more information available now and the internet is a different thing than even just 8-10 years ago.

Second, I am just amazed at the judgment against women who didn't do as we do and the lack of desire to question the system. I thought that was what I read so much about in all the threads and posts on MDC about pregnancy. But really, in the end -- the system is not being questioned? Instead the preference is to assign individual blame and judge people by our own experience rather than step outside of our experience and look at thing's objectively. This is so bothersome to me.
if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.
 
#142 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.

Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.
 
#143 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.
 
#144 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.
The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.
 
#145 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.
so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?

ETA:

In a perfect world... we should be able to trust that our caregivers will give us the care and education that we need. We should be able to have them help us understand our choices. But we dont live there.... and we havent for a long time.
 
#146 ·
Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.
 
#147 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?

No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.
 
#148 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.
well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.
 
#149 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Writerbird View Post
Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.
I am sorry for your friend and to me it proves my point, but I know that I see it differently that other people may see it.. and it is ok. I think that different opinions are the reason that we are all here on MDC. We dont just take what we are given at face value... most of us are pretty opinionated I would say.
 
#150 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by almadianna View Post
well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.
I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.
 
#151 ·
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3cuties
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

almadianna:
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.
I think the problem lies in the fact that "well-informed" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Some women read the What to Expect series and consider themselves "well-informed". Some simply just don't KNOW to question what their docs tell them. Some are so busy struggling to survive that sitting down to Google something or going to a public library is simply out of the question. And then there's us MDC mamas who question everyone and everything


Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

And some people just simply don't WANT to know. They'd prefer to continue on living in their little epidurals-are-safe-lah-lah-lah world and they get really angry if you disrupt that bubble, even if it isn't THEIR bubble you're disrupting. I was accused of fear-mongering just yesterday on another (non MDC) board because I gave a mother a few facts about c-section risks. I find this a lot on mainstream boards with similar topics: breastfeeding, induction, caesarean, parenting, etc. You name it, there's a controversy. And if you have FACTS to support your statements, you are dismissed as using "fear techniques" or "scare tactics" or compared to a certain group of WW II soldiers.

Jen
 
#152 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 3cuties View Post
I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.

We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.
 
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