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used to feel homebirth was best... but not anymore

17K views 245 replies 88 participants last post by  UnassistedMomma 
#1 ·
i realize what i'm about to say is against the mdc prevailing thought .. and i have great respect for mdc and learned more here than anywhere else, been supported more here than anywhere else. i've wanted to post for months but always chickened out because i'm sure someone will get angry and i don't feel strong enough right now after what happened. but i think it's important that i say this. it might save a life.

all my life - well since 14 when i saw my first h/b - i've thought h/b is the way to go, avoiding all the bad things that can happen in hospitals, the cascade of interventions, the fights over 'it's our policy do do this and that' and so on.

so when i was pregnant i devoured ina may's books, michael odent, websites on homebirth, practised hypnobirthing, planned to use water and tubs in labor, read everything about relaxation, normal course of labor, complications, scientific studies on safety and so on (i'm married to a doc,) found a midwife i thought i gelled with - a very experienced woman for sure. paid out of pocket for her services as my insurance wouldn't cover it. i felt with every inch of my body that i did not want interventions and that i wanted to be left alone to find my own rhythm of birth, without being told 'you must do this or that, it's been X hours, yadayada' i also strongly strongly felt i did not want any drugs in my baby and as you know, labor drugs pass the placenta and we don't know the long term effects of this.

so this is what happened and why i don't feel having a baby outside a hospital is worth the risk if you want to have the best chance to go home alive and with a healthy baby..BUT hear me out and read why and what i think the solution is.. until we have a third choice.

i had a completely normal pregnancy. labor started with one intense excruciating contraction that went on and on, then stopped for a few minutes then started again. i was in terrible pain, couldn't speak, tried to crawl to the shower, hypnotherapy didn't work, nothing did. i was 1cm dil. i said i had to go to the hospital as i felt something was wrong. the m/w said i was acting as though i had the pain of transition. but i was 1cm.

we went to the hospital, a 15 min car ride, and to cut a long story short i had an epidural shortly after as morphine didn't work. pain was off the charts. yes i know older studies suggested early epidurals increase the chance of c section. newer studies have refuted this.

the rest of labor was uneventful, apart from me feeling a bit of a failure. after 24 hours of so of labor, eventually had pitocin because stalled at 4, a well placed epidural that allowed me to walk around so i could try to make him descend. no progression. eventually talk of c section as the baby's heart was slowing periodically (yes a known cause of pit augmentation but that could not have caused what happened next.. so don't jump at me :)

c section, baby was apgar 9/9 and in excellent health and weight

as soon as he was out i started hemorrhaging. badly. within seconds. the docs were not tugging on the placenta, (i.e. they didn't cause it.. my husband was watching) but the blood was gushing out from around where the placenta was and the plac was partly stuck too deeply and partly coming off in chunks as they watched. i lost 4 (i think) liters of blood (some of the stuff they put in me came right out) had many units of tranfused blood and other assorted stuff, by a miracle they saved the uterus (ask me how if you're interested), i passed out from lack of blood (bp was something like 50/30 at one point) for a few secs. this bleeding happened in the space of 5 minutes immediately after birth, all from where the placenta was attached.

i was taken to the ICU and didn't see my son till day 2 - though i'm happy to report that breastfeeding was great when i started and it continued till he was a year. no probs with that at all. i had further transfusions and was sent home after a week. my diagnosis was formally 'placenta accreta', meaning the placenta was embedded too deeply into the uterus. (necessarily a clinical diagnosis i.e. from what they saw and what happened, as i still had my uterus so they could not slice that up to look at the structure of it. however the placental side strongly suggested accreta because of cellular abnormalities and other things (ask if interested)

most women lose their uterus with this, about 10-20% die (check the stats, i'm doing this from memory). you can lose most of the blood in your body in 5-10 minutes. so it was a blessing that i was in an OR when this happened and that i had insisted on going to the hospital. i can't claim great foresight.. i just felt that labors do not start with excruciating pain at 1cm dilation.

i was VERY lucky. i am very lucky to be alive. i can say with all honesty that if he had been born at home i would likely be dead because of how quickly i lost so much blood. accreta is happening more and more as women have more c sections and thus have more scar tissue where the placenta can dig in too deep, but i'd never had a c section.

my point is this.. there are some obstetric emergencies that can kill you wherever you are but you stand a much better chance in the hospital. one of these is accreta, another is amniotic fluid embolism (the biggest killer of women in birth. i had a mild form of this too), another is a ruptured uterus (yes you have warning sometimes that this is happening, but sometimes it's sudden and the baby would die before you were able to get to the hospital.) and that's not to mention sudden problems with the baby that can happen.

these things are RARE, very rare, incredibly rare (i think accreta is something like 1/60,000 births) BUT if you are in a hospital you have a greater chance of living and to my mind it's just not worth the risk to stay home.

in the complications i listed above there's sadly nothing you can do at a homebirth - manually compressing the uterus to stop bleeding would not have stopped it in my case (the docs had the whole uterus in their hands and squeezing like crazy.. nothing..), in the case of amniotic fluid embolism you need massive interventions, will prob go into cardiac arrest in seconds and even in a hospital some 60-70% of women die. it happens randomly, no way of knowing if it'll be you.

now, having said that.. i think what is lacking in most cities is a 'third way', a place run by midwives (san francisco had st lukes'..futon on floor, candles, tubs etc) in a hospital but allowing a homebirth birth with all the best that a midwife can provide, the emotional support, handholding, experience with normal births and so on, BUT with emergency life support measures in the building if needed in those rare rare cases. (but it could be you remember)

so where does that leave most women who don't want to sign up for a medicalized birth in a hospital yet have nowhere else to do this but home.

i think for now.. until there are more 'homebirth in hospital' type places, the safest choice is hospital BUT i believe it's also the responsibility of every woman to prepare herself by reading and studying and asking questions about all the things a hospital will want to do and how you can refuse those you don't think are necessary, and by having a doula or support person who can be firm about what you want and don't want, thus allowing you to focus on birthing as naturally as you can.

we don't need to choose the hospital and just throw up our hands and be helpless and feel that the process is out of our hands. it isn't - WE are still in control and making decisions, or at least we should be.

i think we should spend more time learning and thinking about birth than choosing a car.. yet it seems the opposite at times.

i think if hospitals weren't so pushy with routine things, if they provided more choice in the things that can make a difference between a relaxed, happy mom managing her own birth and a woman who is 'delivered of a baby' as the victorians used to say, then we wouldn't see the high c section rates and all the birth interventions that are often neither necessary nor helpful. (i suspect liability fears are at the base of many interventions.. you'll get sued for not doing something but not for doing it) but there's no reason we have to have any of these things done to us.

there's no real reason why midwives shouldn't work in hospitals as they would in a woman's home, why hospitals shouldn't have all the things that make for a good safe birth. i believe that birth is a natural, normal event and that is should be supported by people who know the natural event best - midwives - but that the safety net should be there, just as you probably would choose to use safety measures in any other activity in life, if they were available.

well i'm an idealist and i also know that birth is a business.. it costs more to have more nurses looking after a women 1:1 rather than one nurse at the nurses' station monitoring contractions of 15 women via electronic fetal monitoring. sure - and that's probably why my ideal solution isn't happening in many places. BUT we can get as close as possible by bringing in our own doula and/or midwife who does give us 1:1 care and knows what to look out for and knows the type of encouragement we need. we can do this. we can also visit hospitals in advance and know the layout, ask questions, decide if hosp A or B is best, lobby for this 'third choice' when talking with our Obs or with the hospital authorities themselves. it's a business remember, so they would hopefully respond to market demand :)

we can say no to routine interventions we believe are unnecessary, but we have to be informed, know what we are saying no to and realize that life is fragile and it is, in my opinion, not worth risking the life of one mother when such a risk is not necessary.

a mom.
 
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#77 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luv2Skydive View Post
The only thing the OP proved to me is that if we listen to our bodies, they won't steer us wrong! They are smarter and know more than any doctor out there and bless you for listening to it when it was screaming: "WARNING: Something isn't RIGHT!".
I have to say that I truly believed that would be the case with me, and it wasn't. I had no feeling that something was wrong at all, until after we got to the hospital, and that was more tension and fear about being there than it was intuition.
 
#79 ·
Arwyn

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Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
yes i believe most countries in europe have i believe better birth outcomes in general (this may be too broad a statement) and this is probably due to socialize medicine more than anything else. by this i mean healthcare is free for all, so women get care throughout their pregnancies from midwives (with ob's if unusual probs), there are midwives at births. holland i believe has the best outcomes anywhere, with 30% or so of women birthing at home with midwives.
Actually I think it's higher. I have to do some research. I saw it, just need to figure out where...

Either way, the US has a horrid infant and maternal death rate and yet we are one of the only countries where midwives are not regularly used. Corrolation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
there's also a feeling that birth is a natural process, it's a rite of passage and so on. (which i support). the flip side is in many countries in europe you must request an epidural ahead of time, have a little interview on why you want it because many hospitals don't have 24/7 epidurals available.
Good. Epidurals carry many side effects and serious issues that are best avoided. And yes, I had one (intrathecal) with all those glorious issues. I believe they should be more limited. Not having a doctor or nurse bully you into one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
if you don't accept routine interventions in hospitals then all they are saving you from is existing problems that manifest themselves within those 4 walls. you don't have to accept routine vaginal exams (which can track infection up and cause fever in the mother and danger to the baby), you don't have to lie in a certain position, or accept iv fluids and pitocin and you can certainly say no to cytotec induction which esp in women who've had c-sections can cause uterine ruptures..

i mean you can can say no and they must respect that, but because you will be in labor i think you need a person to advocate for you while you sit there wearing earplugs or music and don't get distracted from what you're there to do.
This is where you are so very, very wrong. Most people can not do this. You are being very idealistic. Ask the population even here on MDC that have had hospital births to see if they allow you to refuse services or bully you into it or get court orders. An alarming amount I can guarantee you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
but in the case of birth we can *lower* our risk by going somewhere where there's a safety net (until my utopian 'birthing homes run by midwives in hospitals' is established :) ) and in something so important as birth i think we should consider if the risk of voluntarily doing without a safety net is worth it.

the complications that hit you without warning are rare - look at the Farm outcomes - they have been in business for decades (i seriously thought of going there actually, have incredible respect for ina may) and they have never had a maternal death. they have been lucky and i hope they continue to be, they are very skilled and experienced but they can't predict everything sadly.

i believe the higher risk of death at home in the case of rare unpredictable complications has such horrible consequences for a family - motherless baby, sad partner, other siblings etc - that it's not worth it. you can manage what is done to you in a hospital. by law you can say no to anything if you're consicous, but you can't manage the outcomes in the case of a rare problem that may kill you anyway whether home or hospital, but less likely to kill you if intensive medical help is right there. it's no guarantee, but i believe it lowers the risk and this is such a great even in anyone's life.
Those risks are there no matter WHERE you are. Period. Having worked in infertility and also in the hospital on the floor, let me tell you that just b/c that fancy equipment is there does NOT mean you are safer. Sure once in a blue moon they are truly needed and truly do save a life. But how many are sacrificed before then for the name of convenience or just irresponsibility? The rates of medical malpractice deaths alone should tell you that one. Every woman has a right to decide where she will give birth. Every.single.one. Your body is yours. Noone can or should make that decision for you but yourself. You can spend your life in a bubble in the hospital and desperately pray that you don't get MRSA or another hospital-driven infection, but that doesn't make life any safer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in. you have to consent to anything - though it's not always made clear.. :)

you can't manage your chances of an emergency- a real one i mean, not something that gives you time to transfer.
How very wrong you are again. Why will noone (a broad noone) listen to the numbers of women who have had CPS called on them? Been held down, birthraped, assaulted... I know we don't want to believe it but it is a common experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
but wouldn't you say that every mother who dies at home (or as a result of having been at home when this happened) of hemorrhage or AFE or every baby who dies of abrupted placenta (can't do a c section at home) would have a better chance in a hospital.
What if...that is the question, isn't it? What if I didn't listen to my doctor who insisted my baby was too big so they induced me and he was premature with long lasting health issues? What if I would have given birth at home instead of having my placenta literally ripped out of me so that I wouldn't go into shock and have seizures? What if...my cousin didn't go to work that day and get into a car accident??

Life is never predictable. That's life. Plain and simple you can't predict everything. Hospitals are there for emergencies. Not for just in cases. And isn't AFE actually more common with women who have been induced? Specifically with Cytotec? Your baby could die from your abrupted placenta even in the hospital. They are not always known until after the fact.


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Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
i don't have a list of cause of death following homebirth (and cause of death is tricky, some studies count death of mom or baby in the first month after birth or other longish time interval) and i'd love to find one but it seems to me that some homebirth deaths could be preventable if the mom was in a hospital.
And more could have lived if they weren't in the hospital. Be fair.
 
#80 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I have to say that I truly believed that would be the case with me, and it wasn't. I had no feeling that something was wrong at all, until after we got to the hospital, and that was more tension and fear about being there than it was intuition.
I'm sorry......sometimes I doubt my own ability to act on my intuition and pray it's there for me (and that I'm able to really HEAR it) when it counts.
 
#83 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
my point is this.. there are some obstetric emergencies that can kill you wherever you are but you stand a much better chance in the hospital. one of these is accreta, another is amniotic fluid embolism (the biggest killer of women in birth. i had a mild form of this too), another is a ruptured uterus (yes you have warning sometimes that this is happening, but sometimes it's sudden and the baby would die before you were able to get to the hospital.) and that's not to mention sudden problems with the baby that can happen.a mom.
Well, I just want to say that it's obvious that women know these obstetric emergencies exist and that is why the majority of people who are planning a homebirth stay flexible and will transport when advised by a midwife or their body.

You were smart and I'm sure your midwife helped you make the decision to transport also. Your planned homebirth was safe because you transported, now you exist in the very small number (maybe 8%) of women who have to transport.

I also want to mention about a uterus rupture. I had a friend who had 2 c-sections, was pregnant with her third, her uterus ruptured at 30 weeks, she drove over an hour to the hospital, the hospital had her wait in the waiting room for quite sometime because they were "busy" and all the L&D was full. She was just fine and so was the baby. Yes, some people die instantly (probably very few) but God has made our bodies to be wonderful works of art that can do amazing things in times of physical trauma.

I'm saddened that you have pushed homebirth out of your mind, especially after reading and investigation so much about it. If you have more children I hope you will reevaluate the situation and see that this was an isolated situation and your next pregnancy probably won't have the same problems.
 
#84 ·
Quote:
Those risks are there no matter WHERE you are. Period. Having worked in infertility and also in the hospital on the floor, let me tell you that just b/c that fancy equipment is there does NOT mean you are safer. Sure once in a blue moon they are truly needed and truly do save a life. But how many are sacrificed before then for the name of convenience or just irresponsibility? The rates of medical malpractice deaths alone should tell you that one. Every woman has a right to decide where she will give birth. Every.single.one. Your body is yours. Noone can or should make that decision for you but yourself. You can spend your life in a bubble in the hospital and desperately pray that you don't get MRSA or another hospital-driven infection, but that doesn't make life any safer.
Exactly.

Yes some women are better off to birth in a hospital, but not every woman.

Home birth is about way more than no interventions.

I had a severe hemorrhage with my first that was not responsive to any meds and required a d&c, but I still home birthed with my second.
 
#85 ·
Fight or flight is a powerful thing.Having birthed 4 in hospitals with mw I should have felt safe,I had that safety net right?Instead I would give birth precipitously and leave as soon as possible.I felt elated,anxious,scared.

I've birthed 3 at home.I took my time.I felt safe.

You should be so very proud of yourself for listening to your gut and acting on that knowledge.I'm glad you're still here to share the conversation with us.

It'd be nice if there were that safe place to give birth.The reality is it seems much more like some cavalier game of dice that most of us make it and some of us don't and those of us who survive by the skin of our teeth wonder why.

My DIL lost 15 pts of blood and her uterus when the grandbabies were born due to a botched c-section in a military hospital ( you can't sue) she did develop DIC and Sheehan syndrome.I sat in ICU the longest night of my life wondering why.Sometimes there just aren't any answers.You do the best you can.Your caregivers do the best they can.And sometimes even when things go terribly wrong you still make it.In some ways that can take a whole lot more time to work through.
 
#86 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
again, you can *manage* what is done to you in a hospital. you can say no to anything, you can literally have no one touch you from the minute you get in. you have to consent to anything - though it's not always made clear.. :)

you can't manage your chances of an emergency- a real one i mean, not something that gives you time to transfer.
I think your understanding of what can happen in a hospital is fundementally flawed.
 
#87 ·
Hospital proponents, in general, believe that if we just do enough, interfere enough, sacrifice our babies' health and our mental wellbeing, our breastfeeding relationships, our power and autonomy, we can have a guarantee

I don't think there are any guarantees in birth. I'm not saying that in any of my posts. I feel though that we should have a safety net that can only be provided in a hospital. Remember I'm not some pro intervention person, I was strongly HB activist, since i was 14 or so. I've been to several HB and they were beautiful births, handled well by midwives (who i believe should handle the vast majority of births).

I don't think being in a hospital reduces your risk to 0, nothing can.

I do agree that hospitals cause a lot of problems and that there are some bad bad ones that start talking about court orders and the like.

I do agree that inherently there are risks of infection, of not being listened to of emotional trauma etc in a hospital. We're on the same page about that, but it would also be dishonest of me to to stay quiet on this topic having changed my mind on the safety of homebirths. Just as I talked about how I felt home was the best place before I had the baby, now it's my responsibility to talk about how I no longer feel that. And I feel I'm betraying a sisterhood here. I really do.

I talk about an ideal place to give birth while knowing the reality in America and in many countries. Hospitals don't get paid more if the woman has a good - emotionally good - experience. They get paid per birth, the quicker the better as far as they are concerned.

Of course every woman should make her own choice, but in writing this post I simply wanted to tell my humble tale and as one of those who almost didn't make it, let you know that when you hear those sentences from a midwife about 'you can transfer, we can handle almost all emergencies (which is true)' focus on the word *most*. And ask yourself if you have an emergency that they can't handle, would you be happy with the outcome if you were at home. Would you be at peace for your family if you didn't make it. I know for me, the risk is too great and I will not birth at home this time. I very much like the suggestion of one poster who said she went to the hospital and walked around not telling anyone she was there. In fact that's probably what I'll do.. :) in the absence of my utopian set up that maybe, by the time our babies are grown, will exist.

Until then we muddle through. When you talk with old obs they will tell you that births have swung in our times to a very medicalized model and like a pendulum at some point all the interventions will be seen to have limited use. Already where I live episiotomies are not routine, stirrups and lithotomy position are largely obsolete, eating and drinking appears to be Ok (this from friends who birthed in the other major hospitals in our area. I was told not to eat and drink, but did anyway without making a big deal of it, saving my battles for things i cared about. AROM, EFM and other procedures are not proven to speed up labor in the case of the first and prevent deaths in the case of the second - according to major studies. So I suspect these may be on the way out. Scalp monitoring is fairly uncommon here, and routine IVs can be refused. These things will change over time.

Perhaps another approach would be for us who choose hospitals but want intervention free births to sign a waiver on admission, saying essentially we take responsibility for our choices and will not sue you. Then the hospital wouldn't feel they have to throw that 'protective net' (actually it isn't) of interventions at you.

I *REALLY* like the suggestion of going to the hosp, avoiding the maternity floor and just walking around until you are ready to push ..thanks to the person who suggested that. Walking feels right to me in labour and I did want to walk a lot last time once the pain had subsided. Now I need to talk my husband into it. :)

Many many people have bad things done to them in hospital, out of ignorance, out of fear, out of a feeling that 'this is right' when in fact it isn't. But I think the catastrophic events that a hospital has more chance of saving you from (more chance. NOT a guarantee) make it easy for me to feel at peace going there and massaging the system in my favor.

RE AFE- it's such a rare event, but mostly fatal. Some studies link it to induction (perhaps stronger contrax of pitocin have something to do with it). Some with mothers who have allergies or have male babies. Truth is we don't know. AFE has happened in women who had miscarriages, in women who had D&C, in women who had hospital births and in women who had homebirths. (I read about a sad case recently diagnosed after the woman died, collapsed seconds after giving birth to a healthy baby at home. Maybe she would have died in hospital too, maybe not.) It's one of those random events but with such sad outcomes most of the time that I feel it should make everyone pause and think.

I only gave 3 examples of complications, but there are others, not to mention complications with the baby that necessitate an immediate (within seconds - yup they can do one at the bedside if necessary) c section to save its life.

I agree we can't live our lives being afraid or we'd never do anything. But I wanted to write about this in case it helps and informs someone. If anything as an encouragement to prepare ourselves for birth mentally and physically as best we can, knowing ourselves, our bodies, what hospitals in our area would want to do, how we can go around the system, what is safe and unsafe. And I think HBers more than any group (maybe UC even more :) ) do that and are aware of those risks.

But sometimes on paper when you read or hear someone saying 'most routine emergencies can be handled at home' as yourself what about the non routine ones, the ones I can't predict, the ones I have a better chance of surviving if I am in a hospital. If that happens to ME, will I be comfortable (if i survive) with the consequences. And if I don't, will I be at peace that my family no longer has me. I can't tell you the flashbacks I have of slipping away. Well I can tell you. I can taste the sadness. I felt myself floating over the bed in the OR, seeing DH with his head in his hands. Struggling to get back 'down' and see DS who I had not seen yet because I was passing out.

None of us know what it's like to die. But this felt very close and it comes to me in dreams (and sometimes awake) all the time. (I'm dealing with PTSD obviously..)

The sadness I feel when I have these dreams, the sadness at seeing DH face as he contemplates a life without me and with an infant son is making me cry even now. I cannot responsibly choose to be without that safety net, even if it means I have to fight (a smallprice to pay) a little to have things my way in a hospital.

I don't want to be trite and say you can't understand unless you've been this close to death, and sadly I'm sure some of you have had experiences like this, but it's not something I can put in words very well so forgive me for not being very eloquent on this.

As to the other things that HBers favor, I'm all for that. No vit K injections, no circ, no eye ointment (if I know I don't have syphilis and other nasties.. why should I goop up the kids eyes with prophylactic ointment against it), pro breastfeeding, cloth diapers, cosleeping (we still do at almost 2), spaced out vaccinations (why overwhelm his immune system with lots of shots at once!) and only those that are necessary at that age. (Hep B (is it hep b..? it's one of the heps) you know is given immediately after birth. Hep B is sexually transmitted and it's given then because it was decide by the powers that be that everyone should get it rather than rely on the high risk people in 15 years to come in and get it.. which they prob won't. but that's a silly reason for me so we didn't do it. ) Anyway i digress..

Look if I were low risk and had a choice of ONLY a hospital that I knew would slap a court order on me for refusing interventions or a HB I'd probably take my chances with the HB. But I think most of us aren't in that situation. It's criminal that such things happen, like women in prison being shackled while giving birth.. what are they gonna do.. leap over a wall with a baby hanging out of them.. makes me angry.

I'm rambling a bit here.

I've tried to explain as coherently as possible why I feel as I do, and it's not been easy to read some things written. But please as you go about your lives bear in mind what I'm saying and I'll do the same with the things you all say. I can disagree with what you are saying but I still respect your right to say it and make your own choices. But I hope what I say gets thrown into the great mental blender as you do.

Peace
 
#88 ·
I'm glad you survived...wow.

I'm glad I chose to do a UC HB for my first baby. I used my inner voice/instinct/higher guiding self as a guide. If I had 'sensed' that something was wrong, I would have gone to the hospital. But, my 'inner voice' was telling me to stay away from the hospital. I'm glad I listened to it. I knew everything would turn out all right with the birth. I just had problems because the placenta didn't want to come out! If I had gone to the hospital, I can imagine what they would have done. It took 9 hours for it to come out, and then when it did it got hung up by a membrane. Everything turned out all right, and I am very glad with my choice to birth at home.
 
#89 ·
"But I think the catastrophic events that a hospital has more chance of saving you from (more chance. NOT a guarantee) make it easy for me to feel at peace going there and massaging the system in my favor."

I'm glad you feel at peace. Truly, I am (although given that you are still dealing with PTSD, I would question how true that is). I want that for every woman.

But you didn't address my (and others') main point that while yes, you might have died if you weren't in the hospital, there are other women who die because they were, and women who didn't because they were at home. I am very glad you were where you needed to be to survive this birth. But your argument that, because you would have died out of the hospital, therefore all women should, in an ideal world, birth in the hospital, and that it would thus be "safer", is simply wrong, in my opinion and understanding (based on years of research and reading and observing others' experiences).

If you feel the need for that safety net, and the risks of hospitals are worth it to you, blessings on you, and I wish you healthy and happy future births there. I hope within our lifetimes we will see the mother and baby friendly changes implemented universally, and the non-evidenced-based practices which permeate hospitals eliminated. And I will still support homebirth as the safer, saner option for all women who desire it.
 
#90 ·
I can see (read) that you're dealing with PTSD, and I'm sorry for your traumatic experience. I cannot imagine what you must have felt during that time.

However, I think you are seeing homebirth in light of your experience, and not in reality.

I attended a horrible birth once. Mom and baby survived, but it was ugly. Afterwards, for a while, birth didn't feel safe to me. In fact, birth felt incredibly UNsafe. I felt that everyone should schedule c-s. I was scared.

It took a long time, lots of talking talking talking talking (to my dh, to midwives, to my doula certification group, to my therapist) and tons of writing, before I felt okay about birth again. Just keep that in mind. I only attended that birth; you experienced an incredible birth trauma and it may be a long time before you feel normal about birth again.
 
#91 ·
Out of interest.. has anyone raised the threat of suing while a nurse/doc was doing something they asked not to be done?

As in 'i'll cut an episiotomy now'

No you do not have my permission. I will sue you if you proceed. We are filming this.

has that worked for anyone?

(horrible that we should have to ask such things..)

one other thing.. a few days after i left hosp we went out for the first time. put the baby in the car seat and just went to a bagel store if i remember correctly. i needed to be out of the house and see people. see life. i crossed the street alone to post a letter. i looked around and started bawling when i saw kids and their parents and all those people. i felt as though i'd been away, on a different planet, and had changed completely. i felt how we take for granted that things will turn out ok. i i'd look at people with kids and parents and 'how lucky that your mom made it, that her number wasn't up. how might life be without her, if you'd never known her. how close we are to disaster'

i walked back to my husband and bawled, feeling soo spaced out. looking at him and the baby and wondering at that same scene, but without me there, and knowing how close it had been. the same street, sky, cars, people, but without me.

this isn't really relevant.. but i wanted to say it. thanks for indulging me and i hope you all stay safe and remain close to those you love.

over n out for now. enjoy the weekend.
 
#92 ·
One of the things about giving birth is that you need to listen to your body no matter where you give birth. You did that. You listened to your gut and followed your instincts and it saved your life.

I hope if you have another child, your labor goes easier and doesn't end up with you losing any more blood then that your body was designed to lose.
 
#93 ·
Quote:
We are filming this.
From my experience and knowledge, I do believe that most hospitals and doctors do not allow cameras or filming of any kind in the delivery room because often it is used against the doctor as evidence for a malpractice suit.

As for telling a doctor not to do something and they do it, his colleague doctors will line up to testify that the doctor behaved and acted according to the "standard of care", and that statement will go a long way in vindicating a doctor in a court of law who performs any procedure against your wishes. After all, the doctor is the trained, educated expert, and you, well you are the patient.

When a woman has a baby in a hospital, she is on the medical profession's turf.

When a woman gives birth at home, she is queen of her domain, she has the home court advantage.

As for the feeling of death, you certainly "walked through the valley of death", and you returned. Postpartum is hard with the change of hormones and the problems you endured. But you were healthy enough to recover and return to your family, and now you are healing.
Easy healing vibes to you and may you find a support in those around you.
 
#94 ·
Oh honey, I'm sorry your birth was so hard and not what you had hoped. I'm married to a doctor too (also had a section - breech) and although I know intervention can lead to more c-sections I wouldn't have a non hospital birth either. There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore. Say what you will against modern medicine, and my husband will be the first to admit it is FAR from perfect, but it has definitely saved some lives. I'm glad you and your son are safe!
 
#95 ·
i'll try to address your point arwyn as best i can.

some women die because of hospital mistakes. agreed. but if you educate yourselves you can catch many of those before they happen. of course you could touch a door handle going in and get mrsa in a cut and get very sick, but that could of course happen at the mall too.

if someone puts the wrong fluid in an IV while you're having surgery there's not much you can do about it. you can't prevent all hospital mistakes.

but if someone wants to keep you lying down or says you must have an IV from the minute you check in or says you must have vaginal exams every X hours or wants to rupture membranes, you can say no. sure, there are hospitals who'll whip a lawyer out of the woodwork but I hope none of us *have* to go to those, because by doing research ahead of time we'll know about them. we'll know what happened to X at X hospital, and we'll know that we will go to stay with a friend in another place (or an arrangement like that) close to a better hospital if that's our only choice in our area.

But we can find out those things with research. Take the hospital tour then ask midwives who work there or HB midwives who know the ins and outs of the particular hospital.

We can do a lot to control for the bad things that can potentially happen to us in a hospital, be strong (with info, with support people) if they try to guilt you into accepting procedure X.

We can't control everything, and for sure, sometimes hospital make such catastrophic mistakes on mother or child that they kill and lawsuits are supposed to help get justice for the victims. Not that it makes up for the loss.

But.. births can go from low risk to high risk very quickly and on balance i think the things hospitals can save you from are so serious (and i'm not just talking about a couple of events as i described in the OP) that it's worth accepting the (usually lesser) risks that crossing that threshold brings.

it is sad that the business of medicine (have you seen the 'business of birth documentary, it's a bit skewed in parts but good) intrudes at all in the comfort and safety of a woman going thru a non medical event.

but in balance i think the bad things that happen in hospitals are fewer and less likely to be fatal than the things a hospital can save you from. BUT ONLY if you are very well prepared with knowledge, support.

If someone cuts you despite you saying 'no' that's awful and would anger me greatly to say the least. but i'd rather that happen and be somewhere that saves me if i go into cardiac arrest, than be home and not be savable.

in the case of hospitals killing someone by mistake, when that person would have been fine at home, sure that happens. i don't know how often (that would be an interesting stat) and yes that person would have been better off at home.

do we know whether hospitals KILL (actually result in death, not just a relatively minor procedure done against will) more people

or whether birthing at home results in more deaths that would have been preventable? i do not know.

but i strongly feel that you can educate yourself enough to catch most potential mistakes or dangers in hospital (not all, for instance you wouldn't know if the door handle your nurse touched had a bacteria she's about to transfer to you by brushing against you - even if she washes her hands) while being in an environment with a safety net.

i just don't think deciding against the safety net is the answer, just as i think hospitals have a lot of improving to do.

here's a shocking (to me) story. a friend who is a doc, and married to one is pregnant. neither are obs. their ob decides that my friend's baby is too big for her (pelvic measurements or some other innacurate thing, despite her having birthed vaginally a bigger baby than then one she is apparently carrying) so he advises inducing THREE weeks early..

result. long, drawn out labor, forceps, 4th degree tear and a kid who is not quite 'normal'. something about her is odd. how can 2 docs who are supposed to know more about birth than most people allow this. did they not question? nope. that's what i mean about doing research. if they'd read ina may or odent or even googled pelvimetry they would have heard some alarm bells.

was the tear and forceps a result of induction so early. i tend to think so. is the kid 'funny' because of that. who knows. but it seems so unnecessary.

i'm rambling again.. have to go out now. bye for now.
 
#96 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by pannacotta View Post
I feel though that we should have a safety net that can only be provided in a hospital.
I understand that your birth was traumatic; I've had a traumatic birth experience, myself. However, just because you feel that the only safety net is to be in a hospital doesn't make it so, and the statistics bear that out.

Quote:
...but it would also be dishonest of me to to stay quiet on this topic having changed my mind on the safety of homebirths. Just as I talked about how I felt home was the best place before I had the baby, now it's my responsibility to talk about how I no longer feel that. And I feel I'm betraying a sisterhood here. I really do.
But again, just because you've changed your mind on the safety of homebirths doesn't mean that the actual safety of homebirths has changed. The only thing that has changed is your perspective. You're basing your opinion on some pretty powerful emotions, rather than basing them in facts.

Quote:
And ask yourself if you have an emergency that they can't handle, would you be happy with the outcome if you were at home.
If I have an emergency that my midwife can't handle, I'll be off to the hospital, no questions asked. That is what the hospital is there for.

Quote:
I agree we can't live our lives being afraid or we'd never do anything. But I wanted to write about this in case it helps and informs someone.
Unfortunately, though, and this isn't meant as an attack, you aren't informing. It really amounts to scaremongering, because while you think you're providing information, your 'information' isn't based in fact - it's based completely off of fear.

Quote:
I've tried to explain as coherently as possible why I feel as I do, and it's not been easy to read some things written. But please as you go about your lives bear in mind what I'm saying and I'll do the same with the things you all say. I can disagree with what you are saying but I still respect your right to say it and make your own choices. But I hope what I say gets thrown into the great mental blender as you do.
I hope this doesn't offend you, but I cannot bear in mind what you're saying as I go through my life and/or my pregnancy, because the facts don't bear out what you're saying. You can disagree with the statistics and you can disagree with the studies that show the safety of homebirth, but when you do so, it's tantamount to sticking your head in the sand. I will base my childbearing decisions in fact, rather than out of fear of the "what if."

I truly hope you are able to find peace with your birth.
 
#101 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by catters View Post
There's a reason the number one cause of death for women of child bearing age ISN'T childbirth anymore.
No, there isn't "a reason". There are lots of reasons. Yes - OBs have saved lives. They've also cost lives. IMO, antibiotics have saved more lives in this area than anything else.

I've also looked at old records from...England, I think, and women started dying like flies when they started going to hospitals, instead of having their babies at home. Some wards lost 100%. That part always gets glossed over by the "OMG - women used to die in childbirth all the time" crowd.
 
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