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Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid!

10K views 194 replies 71 participants last post by  rabbitmum 
#1 ·
OK, I just need to vent.

Ds and his best friend go to different schools. Due to a host of factors, they don't see each other that often, and the last 2 playdates have had to be canceled because we've been sick.

Sunday was ds' birthday party. He'd planned it for over a month. His best friend (plus 6 other kids) was invited. His friend's mom (who is a friend of ours too) was going to come early to help us set up (we were at a local rec center for a party/swimming). So, 15 minutes before the party, the mom shows up, without her son.

Turns out her son had "lost his privilege" of coming to ds' birthday party. Ds was in tears.


I get that they were really upset with their son (age 6) -- he had gone over to a neighbor's house without permission and didn't come back when asked to. Instead, he ran the other direction when the parents came to find him. It took them nearly an hour to find him/bring him home. He did this twice in one week. Once, Wed and then again on Friday.

I don't know if I'm more ticked about the ineffectual punishment, the fact that it really did put a cloud on ds' party OR that they didn't tell us AHEAD of time. They knew Friday evening that their son wasn't coming to our party. I could have at least prepared him for the fact that his best friend wasn't going to be there.

Ok, end of vent.

Now a question: What can these parents do to keep their 6 yo from taking off like this?

What can I give the parents to read to help them? They are well meaning, but not terribly effective at discipline. (Too harsh on some little things like snacks, and a bit oblivious to other things until they've become a BIG problem (ignoring chasing the cat until he's cornered her and she feels threatened). I know they've tried "Love & Logic" (they were our introduction to the program, which my dh declared "needs a lot more love and less logic"!) But as dh describes it, their basic instincts are just plain off much of the time. (Things escalate to a power struggle a lot.)
 
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#152 ·
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
That is pretty condescending, and a really underhanded way to deliver an insult IMO. Just because people don't all do things your way doesn't mean they do not value commitment, joy, and kindness.

That's not what I said. Other people can value those things and have different priorities or other values that lead them to other decisions. I truly and genuinely do not understand what is being fun about taking my words and making them say other things than what I said.
 
#153 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
well if you are referring to me, we are a no punishment family as well

and I said that sending a 6 yo alone with a random cabbie is ludicrous, not any parenting strategies

I am sure you are the only person on this thread that values these things

Which it was explained, by both myself *and* another poster was in response to a hypothetical and which I said was just one idea, which you needed to respond to with an insult.

I believe you that where you live it would be dangerous to send your child somewhere in a cab. It is not true where I live, nor is it true for my many many relatives who live in NYC. If it would be dangerous for your 6 year old (which if I'm reading your signature right would also be a hypothetical 6 year old) then it would not be an option that worked for you.
 
#155 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Do some of you all really think it is somehow damaging and horrible to deny a child a birthday party as a consequence for taking off to the neighbours and refusing to come home, running away from your parents when they come for you, instigating an hour long drama... TWICE in a week? Does it really matter so much if the consequence is 'natural' or 'logical' or simply the parent saying: No way, dude, you don't pull that crap without fallout?

This is where 'GD' kinda gets off track for me. IMO there is NOTHING wrong with a parent refusing a b-day party after that, and it does not have to be simply about keeping a child safe in the moment... which some folks here seem to think makes it invalid or not gentle or somehow crushing to the child's delicate psyche.

I mean, back in the day there was a lot of parental punishment that was disrespectful, mean, and really out of line. But we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here! Our children are not delicate flowers who can't handle a bit of actual parenting. I think some of us advocate going so far the other way, questioning always ourselves and not the kids (a la 'omg why would you chase him??'), and the kids just do whatever they please while we sit around psychoanalyzing and taking such pains to not damage the little sweeties that we render ourselves inert. Yk???

 
#156 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar View Post
I've got an introvert without a lot of friends too. And, I get that it would be a big deal.

That said, I also think kids need to get to the point where they realize that even on their birthday they aren't the only person in the universe with needs.
And I will say to my son's credit (more so than mine
that he coped AMAZINGLY well. He cried a little bit, he got over it and had fun. I'm the one who's still stewing about it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar View Post
And, I should note I also post this as a parent of a child with medical difficulties - he does get sick sometimes and he does sometimes miss going to parties he wants to attend. That's sad enough for him without adding the burden that he's got to feel guilty for disappointing a friend. I appreciate the ways in which friends and their parents have been understanding of that.
But that's very very different. That's a health concern. We would be disappointed, but understanding if a child was sick. There was no illness involved here. It was a parent-imposed consequence that ticked me off. I've moved on (not quite as fast as our son did, but I've come to terms with it.) Ds did learn a valuable lesson in having a good time. He handled the whole thing maturely.

I just wish his friend's parents had had the courtesy to warn us ahead of time, at minimum, and maybe rethought the punishment.
 
#157 ·
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Originally Posted by allgirls View Post
One child showed up at her party. I was so
and upset for her. And I was so mad at the parents.

BUT she had a great time. She partied and had fun and played with us. We went out of our way to make sure she had as much fun as she could have with only one other child at the party.

I held that resentment for a long time and still am somewhat ticked at those parents. But my daughter is now nearly 14 and she doesn't even remember it. Kids are so resilient.
Thanks! That does help. I swear I worry more about his social life than I do mine. It just hurts so much to see him hurt. And to know that this hurt was "optional". I'm probably a little sensitive too because we'd had to cancel TWO playdates with his best friend because we were sick.
 
#159 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post

But that's very very different. That's a health concern. We would be disappointed, but understanding if a child was sick. There was no illness involved here. It was a parent-imposed consequence that ticked me off. I've moved on (not quite as fast as our son did, but I've come to terms with it.) Ds did learn a valuable lesson in having a good time. He handled the whole thing maturely.

I think having it be a big deal in a way that a sick kid wouldn't be is 100% a choice you are making. If your biggest concern is that your son's friend isn't there that's the same whether the friend is sick or being punished. The bottom line is the same - not every thing goes the way you always want it to and sometimes you have to learn to roll with it.
 
#161 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
can you explain what you mean, your point of view?

maybe it's semantics - i don't see an outside world full of punishment.

peace
 
#162 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar View Post
If your biggest concern is that your son's friend isn't there that's the same whether the friend is sick or being punished.
It wouldn't be to me. They used the birthday party as a tool to punish their son.

It happened to me once that I arranged something nice for the kids and invited another child, but then that child's mother called me just before the event to say that her child had been so difficult all day that she had decided to punish him, a four-year-old, by not letting him join us for our planned event.

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.


Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.


There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.
 
#163 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.

That's what I'm seeing anyway.
 
#164 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post
There is no logic and no predictability in that sort of treatment of children. The child in this position has to make sure he doesn't disobey, or else whatever the parents know that he loves or looks forward to, can be taken from him as revenge. His possessions aren't his to keep, things he has been promised can be snatched away at any time. It is a completely unpredictable situation for a child.

I understand that this is the prevailing pov on punishment here on the GD board. And I've read many, many books, and I understand that Kohn and others share this pov.

I don't believe, however, that a child raised in a GD home that incorporates punishment some of the time necessarily shares this pov.

We've used punishment (time out, and, yes, sometimes cancelling something fun) at times. Those punishments are reserved for when things are really breaking down and a specific behavior needs to stop, immediately, to keep everyone safe, and, for whatever reason, more relationship-style parenting is failing us at the moment. And ime it can work very well.

I would be concerned if this were the backbone of our parenting and our relationship with our dc. But it isn't. Our relationship is based on love and trust and simply enjoying each other
. I find that we enjoy each other best when neither of us is raging violently, however, and punishment helped us teach dd to stop raging (by requiring her to find other ways to express her feelings--ways that don't feel as immediately rewarding, but are far more rewarding in the long run).

I'd cut the parent in question here a lot of slack. It sounds like they had a very intense experience (not being about to find the child), and they were scared. They probably felt like they needed to do something to make sure that it never happened again--to make sure that their child stayed safe--and they probably didn't know what to do. Kids don't come with instruction manuals, after all. It sounds like they did the best thing they knew to do, and I'm sure they weren't happy about it.

To the op--yeah, it bites that the boy's punishment had a negative impact on your ds's party. And she definitely should have given you some notice. Maybe she didn't call because she was conflicted about her decision?
 
#165 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by allgirls
For my children I hope to instill in them a sense of right and wrong. That they will do the right thing because it is the right thing not because they fear the "punishment" because that doesn't prevent them from doing the wrong thing when there is no one watching or when they don't get caught.

I look to the future and how I want them to be as adults and let's face it..adults don't get sent to arbitrary corners to "think about what they did" for all sorts of little infractions and adults don't get smacked for "misbehavior".

Also, when using a tool of discipline I like it to be something that is far-reaching and will be effective in the future. I may be able to send a 3 year old into time out for doing something but at 13 she's not going if she chooses not to and it's setting myself up for failure to think I can make her do something at that age or older without a lot of noise.

The most frustrating thing for me is watching children being held to standards of perfection that adults aren't held to. If you speak out against something you don't get sent to your room. If you voice your opinion, you don't get spanked. If you make a mistake you don't get shamed and embarrassed by anyone...or if you do you will get a lot of support on how wrong it was to have been treated that way.

To answer your question directly I think children who are raised without punishment but with gentle guidance, teaching and respect actually function better in the world because they don't have to look to anyone else for their compass..it will come naturally from within because they have been trusted and respected and thus have trust and respect for their own judgement.
:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
Just curious . . . how do kids who grow up in households with no punishments cope in an outside world full of them?
If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen to me if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.

I like and agree with the following:

Quote:
"And, very important, punishment-any punishment-devalues human suffering, simply because it is the intentional infliction of suffering. Parents are those individuals in a child's world who are supposed to represent the side of good. When they intentionally inflict suffering, the implicit message to the child is that suffering must be a legitimate means to an end. Punishment as a part of child-rearing practice teaches the child that human suffering is not an absolute harm." (Anthony Wolf, The Secret of Parenting)
 
#166 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by thismama View Post
omg seriously? Yes there are a zillion ways to deal with anything. Denying a birthday party for leaving home and refusing to come back, twice, is not the end of the world, and it is not necessarily un-GD. Let's not do the 'omgz is this babycentre????' coz really.

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with parent-imposed consequences, but to me, missing a birthday party is an extreme consequence. As a child, I think I'd have preferred a spanking
 
#167 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by sledg View Post
:

I am also someone who does not experience or perceive the world as being full of punishments.

If what you mean is that all of our actions have consequences, and that by the time one reaches adulthood one needs to be able to accept responsibility for one's own actions (and the consequences thereof) and to be able and willing to make amends when having (purposefully or not) caused harm/suffering/damage: I think punishment simply isn't necessary to teach this. Further, I don't think punishments do a good job of teaching kids to take responsibility for their actions, or to make amends, or to recognize the significance of human suffering, or to empathize or take the perspective of another person. I think punishment often results in the opposite effect: a child learning not to get caught, learning that sometimes it's worth the punishment to engage in a behavior, that punishment wipes the slate clean even without making amends to those we've hurt. And I think punishment emphasizes focusing on the self, focusing primarily on what will happen to me if I act in this way, rather than promoting thinking carefully about how my actions will affect those around me.

ITA with this.
It is what makes me KNOW that this will work. We have done a pretty good job of practicing GD, and I think a lot of what we do is CL. I have seen my son learn through this type of parenting. I have seen that I don't have to punish in order to get a point across to him.

But above all else, he has EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, which is so important. many children, boys esp, never learn how to identify their emotions or express themselves in an effective way.
We very occasionally will do a parent imposed consequence, but avoid it like the plague. The consequences don't get to the root of the problem.
 
#170 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post

I felt very bad about it because something special I had planned for the kids was being used as a punishment. I felt like my efforts to give them a nice experience had been turned into a tool to hurt and humiliate this child, in a way I would never have done. I don't do punishments so I don't want to be used like that.

That strikes me as a very narcissistic way to view the situation. It isn't really about you. The original poster's feeling was that it "crushed her kid". My point was that unless the parent chooses to make it a big deal, the objective reality for a young child is that their friend isn't there. Whether the kid is sick or punished really makes no difference unless parents choose to layer on another level of meaning. I can't imagine anyone here would be holding a grudge if the friend's kid got sick and I see no reason to treat this any differently. As I the poster acknowledged her son handled it maturely and bounced back and she was the one who struggled more. I'd see this as a good example of how we maybe should a hint from our kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitmum View Post
Even if it wasn't my wish that the "misbehaving" child should stay at home, it is very possible that he would feel shame the next time he saw me, and think about the time he wasn't allowed to join our event because he had been "bad". And maybe wonder if I didn't want him there.

I think this is really far fetched. It sounds like you are looking for a reason to make it about you and to be upset. And, I post this as a parent who doesn't believe in punishment and doesn't use it.
 
#171 ·
My two cents on the issue because we just dealt with ds (almost 4) running away from me at the park, TOWARD the very busy street...I had no help and had to lug my 13month old as I ran and panted and heaved and...you get the picture...

To me, not taking a child to a pre-planned event can make sense as a natural consequence depending on the situation. I told ds today that we aren't going to the park for a good long while because he runs away and that is NOT safe and it puts me in a really bad spot.

I'll be honest and say that at this point in my gd journey there are times we punish (taking away privileges like going to eat, going to a friend's house, etc) because we are so spent that we don't have the energy to do xyz. If I've just exhausted myself in dealing with a runner/ whatever, I may not be in the mood to go out and have fun and all la dee da. Sorry bub.

Huh, I just told all this to dh and he totally disagrees with me! He's usually the stricter of the two. He agreed with pps that it wasn't fair to the birthday boy and we would let our son go and figure out another way to deal with the problem...I may have to think about this more.
 
#172 ·
Just tossing in my 2 cents -

The thing that's wrong with it, IMO, is the hurt it inflicted on an innocent bystander. She chose to create a situation where another child was going to be hurt, so that makes it a bad punishment, whatever your views are on the value of punishment itself. I don't see why another child should have to be disappointed on their birthday, to teach her son a lesson. It's just not very compassionate to the other child.

Other than that, if your kid runs off a few times and won't come back, it seems reasonable to me to not let the kid out of the house for a while. Lock the doors and try to figure out why the kid is running away!

ETA - The end result for the birthday child is the same, yes - his friend isn't there. But we, as adults who are supposed to know better, should not *manufacture* situations like this. Illness can't be helped. The mom had choices in how to handle her DC's running away.

And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.
 
#173 ·
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.

The only thought I have left after 9 pages is that this problem behavior had gone on less than a week. That isn't much time to try anything closer to home in terms of problem solving. The parents put all their cards on the table in one swoop. There isn't much left to do once you get to the point of not letting a 6 be the guest of honor at his best friends party. For everyone's sake I certainly hope this worked, because I don't know what these parents are going to do next if he repeats the original behavior. They haven't given themselves much of an "out" if this doesn't work, kwim?

Rabbitsmum I understood your meaning too. As a child I would have felt exactly as you described--totally humiliated and afraid to face you again. Not all kids will react that way but some really do, and it would be a terrible feeling to know you were unwittingly implicated in a situation that led to that feeling.
 
#174 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd View Post
And Rabbitmum, I think I understand what you are saying, and it didn't sound particularly narcissistic to me. I'd feel pretty bad about it too.
Me, too.

As a child I was punished in a similar manner, and whenever I saw the lady next door (who's house I was not allowed to go to as punishment that day) I felt terrible shame, assuming that my parents had told her how rotten I was and that she must agree. It never would have occurred to me that she might have felt compassion for me because it never could have occurred to me at that age that my parents were ever wrong.
 
#175 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
Maybe I'm confused, but I didn't think this kid was a "runner" being kept home because his parents were afraid of losing him at the party. I thought he was grounded because they were very upset that he tried to hide from them after going to see a friend without permission. I thought he was kept home from the party to demonstrate the severity of what he had done wrong.
I agree, they kept him home to teach him a lesson, not necessarily for his own immediate safety. If it had been a trip to the park or something, I think that would have been justified, but that's just me. It's a trust thing, yk?
They may not have thought he would leave the *party*, per se, but they have to know he will be within the parameters they have set for him, and if he demonstrated *just that day* that he couldn't be trusted to do that, I think it's reasonable to cancel outside activities and stick to the house until the issue is resolved.

EXCEPT, cancelling his attendance was thoughtless of the birthday child, and therefore inappropriate. I have to add that disclaimer, in case someone didn't read my previous post.
 
#176 ·
Quote:
On another note, parents whose children run away from them. Well, DH and I call to our children before they get too far away that "we are going this way and we hope they come with us" (we've explained to our children that we will never ever leave them, but sometimes we need to go a different way and it would be really sucky if they went another way); most of the time this works. I almost never run after my children (unless they are in danger); I definately would not have chased my child for 30 minutes (I probably would have said, "Well, I'm going home now and going to bed. . .I'll probably lock the door so I hope you come too so you don't have to sleep outside).
I have the kid who would say "Ok, bye" if I told him I was going in a different direction. And unless you're prepared to follow through on things like that (leaving, locking kids out) I would recommend not telling them that you're going to do so. Unless you're clearly joking when you say it, it's a good way to get them to not take you seriously.
 
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