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May yank my twins out of public school - thoughts? *BIG UPDATE #137*

16K views 160 replies 70 participants last post by  mamadebug 
#1 ·
HUGE 2/18 update post #149

I'm thinking of pulling my twins out of public school and homeschooling them instead. Did anyone do this? Specifically with twins and/or children that were young (kindergarten age)?

My twin boys have been in public school for one month. Due to two separate illnesses and their weakened immune systems, they've missed two weeks approximately (broken up, not straight).

Due to this, the teachers are getting pretty nasty with DH and I. The principal is calling our cell phones to leave nasty voicemails about how we need to "work on getting them back into school" (uh, where's the magic potion to make them well??). One of their teachers tells me about the negative things they do every morning and every afternoon. She says no positive things and my boys end up hearing the negatives and then telling me they are sorry for making me and the teacher mad.


Today, Kyler got a "Good day coupon" for having a good day. Yet his teacher still stopped me and proceeded to say that one of the boys didn't line up after recess was over. It wasn't today, it was sometime this week. Why wasn't this mentioned during one of the other many times she spouted off the negatives? And they don't know which one? Sheesh. Kyler accidentally got in line with the 2nd graders one day, another day Cameron accidentally went into the girls bathroom instead of the boys.

I mean, it's little stuff that is happening because (I THINK!) they have missed so much and are still getting used to procedures. But the school is beginning to get very rude about this, not understand their health issues, etc.

The teachers wanted to setup a meeting on the 15th. I politely asked if it could be the 17th, as that is the only day that week my DH can get vacation (yes, he'd have to use up a vacation day). Today I am told that no, only the 15th will work and actually, DH doesn't need to be there (the teacher told me this).
: Yes, I could go in myself but I'd like DH to attend so we can both hear what they have to say and both talk to them about the issues.

So we're talking about pulling them out of school and instead homeschooling. I didn't look into this before. I guess I thought I was taking the easy way out by putting them in public school but I'm realizing that isn't the easy way for us.. I am intimidated by the thought of homeschooling but then I want them to learn as well.

I think the issues at their school are more about social than academics. So then I wonder if homeschooling is right for us? I mean, they wouldn't have near the social interaction that they'd have in public school (I'd of course get them out and about, etc.).

Sorry for the rambling.. I'm just stressed, upset and ticked off. Thoughts?
 
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#52 ·
Good grief! Based on the things your boys have done I think my DD would have been expelled by now if she were attending that school! Seriously, she has some difficulties with behavior at school and her teacher has been awesome with her! She and I emailed a few times at the beginning of the school year b/c I was getting some negative feedback from my DD and the teacher completely put my mind at ease. Basically it was just my DD learning the routine and having some difficulties transitioning. The teacher said she didn't mention it to me b/c it really wasn't a big deal, quite a few classmates were also having a rough time transitioning to school. There have been some other issues but the teacher has spoken with her about them and encouraged her to make different choices next time. Examples of her behavior:
-Wandering the halls and getting lost b/c the first bathroom had a line
-Hugging/not keeping hands to self (she can be disrespectful of other ppl's personal space sometimes)
-Making silly faces to make other children laugh when it's storytime or the teacher's turn to talk

So, very similar stuff to what you describe with your sons. I think she's gotten in the wrong line a few times too and somehow she hasn't heard the bell to line up from playground a few times. Her teacher has taught K for 18 years so while I was stressed out that maybe my DD wasn't ready for K and she reassured me that it takes time for children to adjust to school and that this was all normal, developmentally appropriate things that she is doing.

Oh, and FYI, my DD is a Dec 02 kid, so around the same age as your boys.

One last thing, I would definitely push for a "purpose" for the meeting. If needed send the principal a certified letter asking for clarification about the meeting. Document everything. Keep a notepad in your car and jot down every single thing Miss Mean says about your son (make notes of what Mrs. Nice says too!) and keep detailed notes on every conversation that you have with the principal or other staff members over the phone. I'd walk into the meeting with a stack of notes all typed up, printed, and chronologically organized into a small binder. Not in a huffy or mean way, just to keep stuff straight.

I think it's very suspicious that they 1) don't care if your DH attends the meeting, 2) won't tell you what the meeting is about, and 3) have so many people coming to this meeting - esp the 2 behavioral psychologists. Not that I'm trying to be all conspiracy theory over here but it sounds like they are setting you up... but wtf would be the purpose in that?

GL,
Beth
 
#53 ·
I would press them on the purpose as well, and perhaps ask that they circulate an agenda and list of those attending.

It is important that you know ahead of time whether you are all meeting to discuss how the school can meet your children's needs, whether they want to discuss testing or therapy of some kind, or whether they have 'truancy' concerns or concerns of some other nature.
 
#54 ·
You may get a better response in the homeschool forum.


I have homeschooled mostly throughout my kids school years, but for 2 years they did go to a private school. We are now back to homeschooling and hopefully it's for the long haul.

It looks like your boys were born in November so they will be 6 this year right? I'd probably take them out and either wait another year to start them in kindergarten again or homeschool them. Either way, the school sounds *very* unreasonable. Their expectations sound very high. And is it possible for you to get notes from your doctor to help with the absences? That's truly the only area I can see that they should have a concern, but all the other stuff sounds silly and petty to me. But then again, I homeschool my children.
 
#55 ·
Oh and I wouldn't take what they say in the meeting they have planned very seriously. I mean come on, your kids are 5 years old.
I think most schools these days expect way too much from children. They've only been in the world for 5 years! I really wouldn't let what they tell me effect how I view my children if I were you. You know your children best. Do what you feel is right. They can't tell you anything you don't already know since you've known them your whole life.
Good luck with whatever decision you make. Hope to see you on the other side!
 
#56 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mommy68 View Post
It looks like your boys were born in November so they will be 6 this year right? I'd probably take them out and either wait another year to start them in kindergarten again or homeschool them. Either way, the school sounds *very* unreasonable. Their expectations sound very high.
I agree that their expectations for never doing any of the things that have been mentioned would be completely unreasonable. Kids do need time to learn and will make mistakes. But by a couple of months into school, I don't think its unreasonable to expect a 6 YO to use the correct restroom, line up at the bell, find the right line, keep hands/legs/lips to yourself and walk quietly in line. Again, not without being told those were the expectations. And definitely not without expecting to issue the instructions a time or two before making it a discipline issue. But honestly, both of my children were meeting these expectations by the time they were 2 months into preschool as 3 year olds. Well, preschool didn't expect a complete understanding of hands to yourself. My 5 YO DD started K this year and those are all rules for her class. While her school has very high expectations for student behavior, I don't think these are unreasonable rules. And most children remember them with an occasional gentle reminder (especially on the hands to yourself issue). All of those things are necessary, I think, to keep order in a school and classroom and make sure all children in the room are respected. Of course, if you think they are unreasonable expectations, than homeschooling probably is the best choice.
 
#57 ·
I don't know that any of us are arguing that the expectations of lining up, not kissing other kids, etc., are unreasonable. I do realize that schools need to keep some semblance of order given the # of kids they are overseeing. I think that the issue is with the manner in which these rules are being enforced and the teacher turning it into some sort of behavioral anomoly rather than a typical young boy who gets lost, is adjusting to the new school routine, and has occassional issues with impulse control. I don't like to see children pathologized for being impulsive and lacking experience.
 
#58 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom View Post
I agree that their expectations for never doing any of the things that have been mentioned would be completely unreasonable. Kids do need time to learn and will make mistakes. But by a couple of months into school, I don't think its unreasonable to expect a 6 YO to use the correct restroom, line up at the bell, find the right line, keep hands/legs/lips to yourself and walk quietly in line. Again, not without being told those were the expectations. And definitely not without expecting to issue the instructions a time or two before making it a discipline issue. But honestly, both of my children were meeting these expectations by the time they were 2 months into preschool as 3 year olds. Well, preschool didn't expect a complete understanding of hands to yourself. My 5 YO DD started K this year and those are all rules for her class. While her school has very high expectations for student behavior, I don't think these are unreasonable rules. And most children remember them with an occasional gentle reminder (especially on the hands to yourself issue). All of those things are necessary, I think, to keep order in a school and classroom and make sure all children in the room are respected. Of course, if you think they are unreasonable expectations, than homeschooling probably is the best choice.
But as has been stated, the boys have missed a lot of school due to illness. So while every other child (for the most part) is going on six weeks into school, my boys are going on their third week.

The bathroom incident happened 1.5 weeks into school. The not getting into line incident happened two weeks into school. The talking in line happened 1.5 weeks into school.

I don't think they are unreasonable expectations. As I've stated numerous times, they've missed a lot of school for a very legit reason. Yet 1.5 weeks into school, my son goes into the wrong bathroom for a couple of seconds at most and backs out in embarrassment over what he's done. The bathrooms are NOT marked well at all!

I won't go over the other incidents again, I've already gone over them enough in this thread. :/ I will say that I've witnessed others talking in line when they shouldn't, I saw another little girl line with the wrong class another day.. first child was told to quiet down, little girl was ushered back into her line. I saw the little girl picked up that day, Kyler's teacher said (and I quote, 'cause I remember this quite well), "X (her name) had a great day. She's doing perfect!" (K's teacher is a fan of the word "perfect.")

And yes, I provided a doctor note after the second illness. I will be bringing in more documentation and more letters from the dr stating why this has happened, etc.

What I was coming to update this thread with.. Today was a good day for BOTH boys!


And guess what? Kyler's teacher, Ms. Negative Nelly, wasn't there. There was a sub and she praised Kyler for having such a good day and what a sweet little boy he was. He came out of the classroom and his ego was obviously 10x larger than usual. The whole way to the van he was talking about what a good day he had and how nice the sub was.

Interesting, eh?
 
#60 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by inkedmamajama View Post
some teachers are a bad fit for some students-i would see if you can switch the teacher issue-you may solve or greatly improve your school issues if you can!
:

My oldest sons 2nd grade teacher was like that. She nitpicked him about everything. It was very discouraging to constantly get bad reports. Third grade was much better.
 
#61 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom View Post
But honestly, both of my children were meeting these expectations by the time they were 2 months into preschool as 3 year olds. Well, preschool didn't expect a complete understanding of hands to yourself. My 5 YO DD started K this year and those are all rules for her class.
Preschools often dedicate a very large part of the first few weeks to teaching lining up, using the right bathroom, etc, so it while it is easy for K student who previously attended preK for kids whos first school experience is K they probably need time to learn and practice.

I find myself wondering. if Miss mean, being younger, has mostly had experience with kids who went to preK and/or daycare, and Mrs Nice, being older, remembers back when children typically didn't start school till K.
 
#62 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristaN View Post
I don't know that any of us are arguing that the expectations of lining up, not kissing other kids, etc., are unreasonable. I do realize that schools need to keep some semblance of order given the # of kids they are overseeing. I think that the issue is with the manner in which these rules are being enforced and the teacher turning it into some sort of behavioral anomoly rather than a typical young boy who gets lost, is adjusting to the new school routine, and has occassional issues with impulse control. I don't like to see children pathologized for being impulsive and lacking experience.
And that part I totally agree with!

And to the OP -- I agree that the way they are treating these incidents, most of which happened some time ago, and the fact that they aren't letting them go is absurd! Everyone deserves to be able to make these mistakes. I completely agree that it sounds like your child has a UA for a teacher and the administration is being silly beyond belief! I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, I was just responding to the one poster who seemed to suggest that the average 5 YO shouldn't be expected to manage these expectations or that your children weren't ready to manage these expectations.
 
#63 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by eepster View Post
I find myself wondering. if Miss mean, being younger, has mostly had experience with kids who went to preK and/or daycare, and Mrs Nice, being older, remembers back when children typically didn't start school till K.
And based on what I've been told, this is their experience:

Miss Mean
aka Kyler's teacher has been a teacher for seven years, only teaching K (I'd estimate she's in her early 30's)

Miss Nice aka Cameron's teacher has been a teacher for many many more years (I'd estimate that she's in her mid-50's) and has taught almost every grade but she just left teaching high school to go back to K students a couple of years ago

I think that is what burns me up the most about this. They don't have the experience others do.. YET.. give them time, they may make a few mistakes as humans do, but they catch on pretty fast. We haven't had issues with talking, being in the wrong line, bathroom issues, etc. now. Doesn't that say something? They line up when the whistle is blown as well. I'm proud of them myself.
 
#64 ·
Can you do a quick check of the school's attendance rules, if any. Missing 3 weeks of school is usually a HUGE deal, often requiring kids in older classes to do summer school and/or special studies projects to catch up. Especially since it's barely October, it's not unreasonable that the school, who doesn't know your family as you're new there, is kind of alarmed to put it mildly. I think you should know, in advance of the meeting, what the specific minimum number of days is and how they're supposed to handle illness/absensces.
 
#65 ·
I don't have twins but I have dealt with a school and it's teachers who make a point of singling out students. Is sending them to school REALLY worth their self-esteem being dessimated? Your son had ONE good day when he felt good about himself AND school at the same time, out of how many school days?

I couldn't watch my children struggle with the negativity of school anymore. I had to pull them out. I was watching them slowly turn from happy well adjusted children who were always so open, to being children whose atitudes literally went in the toilet almost overnight.

The whole school structure is ALL about conformity and making sure that each and every child learns the same exact way as all the other students. Maybe some public or private mainstream schools welcome diverse personalities, but the school your guys are in doesn't sound like it and I haven't seen one yet.

I don't want to sound like a weirdo or anything...I am just really passionate about the individuality of children and how important it is for their ability to learn. I hate when a child is impacted so negatively because of a teacher...it is so wrong. They have way to much power over children to be able to do that.

I hope I don't sound too intense....I totally don't mean to.
 
#66 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Periwinkle View Post
Can you do a quick check of the school's attendance rules, if any. Missing 3 weeks of school is usually a HUGE deal, often requiring kids in older classes to do summer school and/or special studies projects to catch up. Especially since it's barely October, it's not unreasonable that the school, who doesn't know your family as you're new there, is kind of alarmed to put it mildly. I think you should know, in advance of the meeting, what the specific minimum number of days is and how they're supposed to handle illness/absensces.
The school won't tell me if there are a number of days they can miss before X happens. I've asked and the principal dances around the question. It is on my list of things to do to call the district and get the specific rules laid out from them (as they are apparently not online).

And sorry, I meant to say school started September 3rd, they aren't going into their sixth week quite yet.. I don't know why I said that. My boys have missed two total weeks of school (not consecutively).

My boys will be six in November. If we held them back, that of course means they'd be six going on seven in kindergarten next year (they'd be seven for the majority of the year). In Oregon, the cut off is September 1st (must be five). In all of my hours of reading, unless developmentally delayed, holding them back at the age they are could be detrimental in the long run (they'd have a much higher chance of dropping out later on, etc.).

I've been reading everything I can get my hands on, I even spoke with a therapist this evening (a sort of friend) to get her take on it. I am determined to do what is in the best interest of my children, though I know the school doesn't think that is true. I sometimes have a small feeling they see me and assume I am just another young mother.. I am 25 but I look 19-20 (or so I am told by many people). But who knows.. they won't tell me anything, lol.
 
#67 ·
I know in Washington you lose credit after 10 unexcused absences. The definition of unexcused seems nebulous, but illness should be excused.

I tried to search for the law is Oregon and it seems to be the same. You might see if the school secretary knows, at all the schools I've been to the secretary did attendance and could answer questions like that from memory.
 
#68 ·
**I'm replying based off the OP, haven't read the entire thread yet**

I'll start by saying I had a very sick little boy last year during the 6months of public school kindergarten he attended. He missed somewhere over 30 days in that time from the various gastro type illnesses that ripped through the class. However I was lucky in that his teacher was great and always reminded me that prep wasn't 'mandatory' , and thus it wasn't an issue.

I'd personally pull them (as I did with my son
for a lot of reasons. Having a kindergarten teacher who is THAT negative is really going to encourage him to love learning and school?
I pulled my son because obviously his immune system was being battered beyond belief.. took him 4 weeks to recover from the chicken pox when he got them just when I withdrew him! It sounds like your twins have medical issues that full time school makes very difficult to manage.. they aren't going to get as much out of school if they can't BE there, and if they are unwell, they shouldn't be there. ETA: The fact that they will NOT tell you how many excused/unexcused absences are allowed to still pass the grade is suspicious. I think I'd be giving the superintendent a ring and speaking to someone with a clue, and hopefully a bit more professionalism than the ppl running the school!

Regarding the meeting, I would flat out tell them that if they can't be flexible about the meeting date so that BOTH of you can be there, that there just wouldn't be a meeting. You are not a school employee and they do not get to dictate to you. Adults compromise, sounds like they need to learn that. I do not think it is unreasonable that both of you wish to be there, and be involved in your childrens educational process at all. Their comment that he doesn't NEED to be there is pretty da*n dismissive and rude. ETA: They won't TELL you what the PURPOSE of the meeting is AND there are going to be about 7 people there and just you with your 3 kid? I don't think so.. that is ridiculous IMO. Also, they are bringing in behavioral experts for silly simple incidents that happened about a month ago?? Way to waste taxpayer dollars there *rolleyes*

I would seriously put the foot down about when the meeting is.. the 'behavioral experts' can just have another bloody meeting some other time tyvm.

All that in mind, and I'm sure someone has said it
Socialization is probably the last thing to be concerned about. There are hs groups and coops nearly everywhere. I'm actually concerned my kids are going to get TOO much socialization this term with all the activities planned
 
#69 ·
Yeah that he had a good day! It sounds like he really needs a different teacher!

I am so shocked that they won't tell you how many times a child can be absent! It is pretty hard to adhere to the policy if you don't know what it is... Maybe you can get clarification at the district office, not jut on the attendance policy, but also the communication policy!

Your initial question about taking them out of school to homeschool really got me thinking as my DS will be kindergarten age next fall, and we aren't sure what we are going to do for school. Just my thoughts... but if they are enjoying school (or one is and one has the potential to enjoy school) and you like having them in school (in a good situation), the maybe change teachers, schools, even districts.
 
#70 ·
UPDATE

Principal calls me just now. I'm expecting something bad but no, not exactly. She asks if DH got the 15th off for vacation. I said not that I knew of and that I told him over last weekend to take the 15th off, so I was unsure if he submitted the paperwork yet or not. She says, "Well, would the 28th work better?" and I was like Huh?? I told her I'd have to talk to him and see if he submitted the paperwork or what. She goes, "Well, I can call (DH's name) if you like" and I said, "No, that's okay. He's sleeping right now which is why I can't ask him" (he works swing shift).

So I am thinking the 28th is just put out there as an option so DH can be there, right? Wrong. She then says that the 28th would work better for them as there'd be two more specialists available that day that know Kyler. What? I wanted to ask who specifically, why, etc. but I was getting pissed at this point and getting irritated with her way of talking to me (condescending). So I just said I'd talk to DH and see what was going on with the vacation stuff and get back to her.

So they want to push it off almost another two full weeks? If this stuff is so important, whatever the goal is of this meeting, why not be meeting today? This week?
 
#71 ·
This entire post makes me scream for your boys. They are being battered by the system. I would pull them out and stories like this reminds me why I think I will homeschool or private school my kids. As a former teacher, Ms. Mean should not be allowed near children, especially vulnerable ones.

I hope everything works out in the end with a solution that works for you and your family. Stay strong and keep fighting for your kids.
 
#72 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by purplemoon View Post
I will homeschool or private school my kids. .

Private doesn't mean better all the time. I pulled my daughter from private do to issues they couldn't or wouldn't address. I was told she was lazy, too young, attention seeker, etc. She was none of them. She has food sensitivities. Took gluten out of her diet, and I had a new child.
 
#74 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by UberMama View Post
UPDATE

Principal calls me just now. I'm expecting something bad but no, not exactly. She asks if DH got the 15th off for vacation. I said not that I knew of and that I told him over last weekend to take the 15th off, so I was unsure if he submitted the paperwork yet or not. She says, "Well, would the 28th work better?" and I was like Huh?? I told her I'd have to talk to him and see if he submitted the paperwork or what. She goes, "Well, I can call (DH's name) if you like" and I said, "No, that's okay. He's sleeping right now which is why I can't ask him" (he works swing shift).

So I am thinking the 28th is just put out there as an option so DH can be there, right? Wrong. She then says that the 28th would work better for them as there'd be two more specialists available that day that know Kyler. What? I wanted to ask who specifically, why, etc. but I was getting pissed at this point and getting irritated with her way of talking to me (condescending). So I just said I'd talk to DH and see what was going on with the vacation stuff and get back to her.

So they want to push it off almost another two full weeks? If this stuff is so important, whatever the goal is of this meeting, why not be meeting today? This week?

Why do you not know which specialists? Please just ASK. Who will be there and why. You have a right to know who is going to be there.

Also... just, I don't know, this is going to come off wrong, but at this point I almost worry the school has a pretty negative impression of your commitment to education given the kids have missed 3 weeks of school and it's only October 7th and saying things like "my husband is asleep"... just.... step it up a notch or two in your professionalism - it's none of their business what your dh is doing, and I'd start thinking of it less like a "oh they're keeping me in the dark" thing and more like a manager who is attending an important client meeting and goddamnit you need to know what the meeting is about - what is the agenda SPECIFICALLY - and who the attendees will be and what they're bringing to the table.

Let me put it another way - I think you're actually in pretty dangerous territory with regard to risk of CPS being called in (a la "their son French kisses girls, goes into the wrong bathroom repeatedly, and not only do the parents not even send their kids to school or bother to make the time to meet with us, but they apparently sleep all day"). Put yourself in the principal's shoes QUICK and start taking control of this thing - it sounds like a runaway train and I would hate to see you blindsided on the 15th or 28th or whatever.
 
#75 ·
I do ask. They tell me "behavior specialists."

The boys have missed two weeks in full (not consecutively).

She asked if she should call my husband right then. He was sleeping. Why tell her to call him if he's sleeping and it will go to voicemail? They KNOW he works swing shift. I've told them this in the past, so they understood why it was me bringing the boys to school and picking them up. I explained it again when they wanted a meeting at 3pm, because that would mean my husband taking a vacation day (which we are fine with, whatever..).

THEY wanted the meeting to be on the 17th initially. DH put in for vacation, it was approved. THEN the school wanted the 15th. Well, DH's work makes it a pain to change things like that.. so changing from the 17th to the 15th would be difficult but he'd do his best! NOW they want the 28th!

I've asked them previously what the point of the meeting is. "To talk about Kyler's behavior" and similar is what I am told. What is the goal of the meeting? "To get Kyler on a better track."

Cameron went into the wrong bathroom one time, backed out immediately and apologized to his teacher because he didn't realize it until he got in there (no one was in there). HIS teacher wasn't even the one to tell me about this, it was Kyler's teacher. No one else made mention of it again.

I know I've replied to this thread a lot and have long replies, but read some of my replies. I am willing to work with them, of course. If it has to be just myself attending the meeting, FINE. If the meeting had to be today after school and I had no childcare, FINE. If they wanted the meeting at 3am, FINE.

If they want to call CPS on me, bring it on. I've dealt with them once before because MIL was mad at us for not giving all vaxes, so she called and made some things up and mentioned how they weren't circ'd (seriously). We dealt with them back then and will again if need be. Not fun, not what I want to do and I don't see what this school has to call them on us about.. but they can if they want and CPS can come out, inspect our kids, our house and then they can see the detailed notes I've kept about their school, their illnesses (dr's notes, receipts, medications, detailed notes about their temps, when meds were given, etc. etc. etc.) and much more.
 
#76 ·
I have read everything you wrote (including that you said it was 3 weeks of school missed though I see you later changed that to 2) and my post is just a wake-up call even if entirely unwanted to look at it from THEIR point of view. This is not me saying you are doing anything wrong, just that I am seeing a number of red flags here (beyond what is actually occuring in the school, which is bad enough) that you're freefalling down a slippery slope and do not currently have the school's trust or respect, and a suggestion that you deal with the discomfort of the phone call and ask some questions. Who are the behavior specialists, how many, why, have they met with my son, has he been evaluated, what is their specialty, what is their NAME and whom do they work for, etc. etc. ETC.
 
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