This was on the radio this morning and it got me fired up.
I was curious what some other Mother's thought...
I usually miss the original email in the morning that spawns the conversation, but it had something to do with "spying" or following up on your children to make sure they are not up to things they shouldn't be.
This Mother called in and said that as a parent you have to do whatever it takes to make sure your child is safe and she has broken into her daughter's diary several times to "check-up" on her. She even admitted her daughter gave her no reason to beleive she had any troubles going on or anything, she just felt as the Mother she had every right to snoop in her daughter's things to make sure she was okay.
This really angered me... maybe I'm being unrealistic because I do not have teens to deal with yet... but I plan on impressing an open communication and am hoping if my children are dealing with anything and need help, they know they can come to me... I do not agree with invading their privacy like this.
My Mother did that to me as a teen, and it's still a sore spot. She raided my room and found a box of condomns and I actually got grounded for it... Grounded for being reponsible... yeah I don't think that was the correct message to send.
I think it depends on the situation. If you think you have a legitimate reason to do this because your child is giving a lot of signals that they may be suicidal or on drugs then I do think you have some reason to do this. I think it should be done only if you have a well founded concern though, not because you are wanting to snoop. My parents did do this a few times when I was a teen but they didn't tell me until I was an adult and had my own child. Apparently they even plucked some of my hair to test me for drugs and I never knew. I didn't really care when I found out but that was because we have a really open and close relationship.
Originally Posted by Tigerchild
May I also add that there are always going to be parenting choices that are going to be detrimental (at least in the short term) to one's relationship to one's child? Sometimes though the short term loss is to the benefit of the long term.
It obviously varies from person to person, but loss of trust isn't a short term issue with me. It doesn't matter who it is. Once someone has proved that I can't trust them (by snooping my room, for example), I don't trust them. In the very few instances where I've patched things back up to some degree, it's still nothing at all like it was prior to the trust being damaged.
I'll also add that some of us need our space desperately. My room was my refuge as a teen, and having someone snooping around in there would have been devastating. Mom actually did look around once, when she had serious concerns about reports from school. Even at the time, I understood exactly why she did it...and I still didn't feel safe in that room again for about two years. It was the only safe space I had in the world...and it was stolen from me. Fortunately, I knew my mom well enough to know that only extreme concern could drive her to do that for me, so I did regain my safe space, eventually. Solely because I understood why she'd done it, I did eventually trust my mom again. She's the only person who has ever betrayed my trust and earned it back - the only one.
Originally Posted by One_Girl
If you think you have a legitimate reason to do this because your child is giving a lot of signals that they may be suicidal or on drugs then I do think you have some reason to do this.
What's the rationale for spying on someone if you think they're suicidal? One of the things that contributed to my depression all through my teens was the feeling that the world was hostile, mean and unsafe for me (I was bullied a lot, which was part of it). I'm fortunate in that I regained my feeling of safety in my room before I started having my major depressive episodes, but I think another invasion of my privacy at that time would have pushed me over the edge.
If my mom had read my diary or snooped in my room at all when I was a teenager she would have known I was suicidal and found me help. Instead my *help* came after my suicide attempt. So that's MY rationale. I'd rather be able to help my child BEFORE she tries to kill herself thank you.
If my DD grows up to hate me, well, I'd hate that. But I WANT HER TO GROW UP. If the only way to get her there safe and healthy is to end with her hating me. It's a pain I'll have to deal with.
I would hate it, but I would hate myself more if I didn't *snoop* and lost DD forever from suicide, getting killed in a gang, etc.
My mom NEVER snooped at all. Didn't read my mail, never went in my room, didn't listen to conversations, etc. But I don't trust her in the least. Never did. And when she tried to kidnap DD1 that kind of cemented that. So just because you'd rather not look in your DC's stuff doesn't automatically mean you're going to have a child that adores you and trusts you immensly.
And for the record, my *snooping* started AFTER there were huge warning signs. And I'm glad I did. If I hadn't I may not have DD with my now.
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
What's the rationale for spying on someone if you think they're suicidal? One of the things that contributed to my depression all through my teens was the feeling that the world was hostile, mean and unsafe for me (I was bullied a lot, which was part of it). I'm fortunate in that I regained my feeling of safety in my room before I started having my major depressive episodes, but I think another invasion of my privacy at that time would have pushed me over the edge.
My parents used this because they knew that I was suicidal and I think it helped them to identify with me more. And as I said, until I was an adult I didn't know that they had done this. I think done in this way though it can help a parent to know a little more about their child who thinks the world hates them and doesn't understand them and knowing this can save their life. It isn't the same for all people and it would have been a horrible blow for me if I had found out, but the way they did it worked and helped build up our relationship.
I had problems with depression in high school too. If I think one of my kids is suicidal, I will absolutely snoop. But it would take something that serious, and I'd have to have a strong feeling about it. I do feel that kids should have as much privacy as they can, but serious issues like drug use or potential suicide would be bigger than that.
I would not snoop about sex. If you find out your kid is having sex, what will you do? If I suspect that she is having sex, I'll get her birth control and get on with life. You can't stop a teenager who wants to have sex from having sex. That's just folly.
bu thee is a difference between puttin a keystioke reader and chcking the histoy o simply eading thi blog o looking at their myspace site. those things are by nature public. anything they type at home or school or on any shared compute inherently lacks pivacy.
Originally Posted by mamazee
I would not snoop about sex. If you find out your kid is having sex, what will you do? If I suspect that she is having sex, I'll get her birth control and get on with life. You can't stop a teenager who wants to have sex from having sex. That's just folly.
Even though I am very conservative on this issue (I am borderline Catholic and think chastity is very important-- we're thinking of even NFP), I agree. I hope very much that my children choose to be chaste before (and after) marriage, but this is not something that can be forced. My Dh and I did not have sex until after were were married, but it was mostly because of fear of discovery/a sense of guilt, not because of moral choices based on reason and faith. I wish I had made the same choice but for better reasons.
Anyway, my job is to teach them/model behavior as best I can, but this is a choice they have to make on their own. And yeah, we could have had sex 1000 times in 1000 places, even after the "intervention." referenced in my post above.
I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.
I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the end. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.
I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?
I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do not want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual thoughts are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.
Originally Posted by 1littlebit
snooping when you know something is wrong is way different then snooping just to 'make sure' something isn't wrong.
one is to find out how to help your child.. the other one.. i don't know.
What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?
I don't have the inclination or the time to be a helicopter parent or to run my home like a totalitarian dictatorship ....but I can't imagine a time when my children are not yet adults and using the internet in my home that I would not make them aware that their internet use would be supervised. I'd also supervise them learning to drive, supervise their education, supervise parties they hold at my house, supervise them learning to cook....and the level and type of supervision would depend on the child's age, maturity and level of independence. But failure to provide this supervision would be parental neglect, imo.
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.
I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the end. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.
I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?
I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do not want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual thoughts are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.
ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?
And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.
Originally Posted by Aubergine68
What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?
I don't have the inclination or the time to be a helicopter parent or to run my home like a totalitarian dictatorship ....but I can't imagine a time when my children are not yet adults and using the internet in my home that I would not make them aware that their internet use would be supervised. I'd also supervise them learning to drive, supervise their education, supervise parties they hold at my house, supervise them learning to cook....and the level and type of supervision would depend on the child's age, maturity and level of independence. But failure to provide this supervision would be parental neglect, imo.
first of all i think there is a difference between supervising and snooping. parental controls, computer in a common room, checking visited website is supervising.
recording their key strokes and reading IMs, Emails, etc...well.. honestly? how would you (general) feel if dp said ok well im going to start monitoring everything you do online. you ask why and he says just to make sure your not doing anything i don't want you to. wtf? yk? why would you do that to your kids?
Originally Posted by the_lissa
ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?
And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.
yep. i also think that we should try not to take our issues from our childhood and put it onto our kids. i really wished my parents had noticed i was adhd before i got to college. i wish high school hadn't sucked so bad b/c i didn't know what was wrong with me. I'm not going to base my parenting around that though,
pp mentioned she should snoop and read her kids diaries b/c her parents didnt notice she was suicidal until after a suicide attempt. While I understand that fear i think it is unfair to your child to make them pay the price for what your parents did or didn't do with you. yk? She may not be the least bit depressed and to invade her privacy like that b/c you were depressed isn't right. keeping your eyes and ears opened and staying attuned to the warning signs would be much more effective.
You will know something is not right if your child is suicidal or depressed. you can take action much sooner instead of waiting for something drastic. you won't know from reading her diary (i mean you might be thats not necessary) you'll know b/c your her mother and you won't hesitate to get her help.
Originally Posted by 1littlebit
You will know something is not right if your child is suicidal or depressed.
I think that's true. My mom didn't realize how bad it was with me, but she did know something was wrong...and that was despite dealing with two other seriously messed up kids, two invalid - and toxic - parents (my mom was the primary caregiver for both her parents from the time I was 6 months old until grandma died when I was...19? 20?...something like that), and an alcoholic husband. She was still aware enough to pick up that things were going wrong, even if she wasn't aware of just how bad it was.
I just...I know if ds1 and his ex g/f (still really close friends) have had an argument. I know if he's had a bad day at school. I watch him. I watch how he interacts with his ex, with his friends, with us, with his siblings...I talk to his teachers, and make sure the "public" ds1 and the private ds1 are congruent. Even if he did have something that seemed depressive written down in his room or something...I wouldn't necessarily know what it was, or whether it meant anything. (I had an Iron Maiden song written down in my binder for a long time, and I put it there when I wasn't suicidal, but if someone saw it and didn't know what it was, they'd have wondered...they'd have really wondered. For that matter, I have a poem about death that I wrote about 10 years ago, and I wasn't depressed when I wrote that, either.) The day-to-day ds1 is a much better indicator.
Originally Posted by 1littlebit
recording their key strokes and reading IMs, Emails, etc...well.. honestly? how would you (general) feel if dp said ok well im going to start monitoring everything you do online. you ask why and he says just to make sure your not doing anything i don't want you to. wtf? yk? why would you do that to your kids?
Bad example in my case.
Dp and I open each others mail, share bank accounts, share an email account, use our cell phones interchangably depending on whose is most charged, and without going into details, his online relationships are mine and mine are his. We share the same identity on some online forums, including facebook and gaming sites. He sometimes reads my posts on this forum. Why I might very well be my dh right now, rather than myself....
No, seriously, I don't have a lot of need or expectation of online privacy from my spouse. We have been known to ask each other why we hung out on a particular website or why we spent so much time searching on a particular term. This is a way of starting conversations, not a way of controling each other. Like saying "Hey, what do you think of that book you've been reading. I saw the title because you left it on your nightstand last night?" We just don't see the internet as a private space, sorry.
But to answer your question more specifically, I check up on my one child who is old enough to be on the internet because she is a child and I am her parent and it is appropriate for me to make sure she's ok doing what she's doing. -- that she's not hurting herself or anyone else. I want to be able to provide her with some guidance, some clues as to online manners and mores. Half the time, I'm her help desk anyway -- she asks me how to do things online, advice on answering emails from friends, etc. She's 10, btw.
I'm sure that my level of involvement will change as she grows older, and we'll negotiate that as needed, but I don't expect that she will have or need a complete internet privacy from me. Why should I? I don't need it from my spouse....maybe we'll have a family engagement with the internet and invent something new that way....
Lots of great posts. Really, really great ones. From both sides on the issue.
One of the pp's who mentioned trusting your instincts (I think it may have been 1littlebit?) brought up a great point. As parent's we have instincts for a reason. To protect our children. To know when something is wrong. But, it's also true that there aren't always signs. So... it's a tough call.
Reading over these posts I've just been thinking... it's not even the fear of my child committing suicide. If I think that there's something in my home that should not be there... whether it's a weapon, or drugs of any kind, I absolutely have the right to make sure that it's not there. It is my home, and I am responsible for what is in it. So if I think that something is a bit off and want to check my kid's room out and make sure that there's not something that shouldn't be there, it's absolutely my right.
I'd never go so far as to install camera's and such, because I believe that everyone is entitled to a certain level of privacy. But my dh and I discussed this wayyyy before we ever had kids. There won't be and betrayal of trust because they'll know that we, as their parent's, reserve the right to go into their room's- that we pay for!- at any time for any reason. It is my home, and while I want to maintain a certain level of privacy for my children, I also have the right to feel comfortable in the knowledge that they don't bring things on my property that aren't supposed to be there.
I highly doubt I'd go snooping just cause I can. It's more of an issue that, if I think something's off, if my instincts are kicking in, if my child has been acting in a way I find worrisome or strange, yeah, I'm going to check it out. No if's, and's or but's about it.
i don't necessarily think going into your kids room is snooping... depends on what you're doing while you're in there.
reserving the right to search your kids rooms is fine.. as long as you only do it if you think there is something in there you should know about.
"i searched his room b/c he has been really distant lately ... and every time i ask a question he bites my head off."
is way different then
"everything is fine i searched his room b/c he's probably doing something wrong."
and honestly? i don't think a kid can start doing drugs, carrying weapons, become severely depressed or anything drastic like that without there being some signs. will you find them shooting up in the bathroom? probably not. but there is a fairly good chance their grades will drop and they will probably be acting sneakier then before. if your previously non depressed child becomes seriously depressed there'e going to be signs there too.
No there may not be huge red flags.. at least not any you can see in the moment.. and probably there won't be. but there will be signs... you will be able to tell something is not right. it might be subtle.. it might not be... but you will know. you will know because you know your kid and at the very least unless they have no conscience they will act slightly different b/c they are lying to you. you really really really have to trust your instincts.. similar to the way you trust your instincts with an infant. can they tell you whats wrong? no. do you know something is wrong? yep. how do you know? you just know.
I think most of what you're saying is pretty spot on... but the thing about drugs... wouldn't the grades start falling after it's been going on for sometime? I mean, they're not going to get high for the first time and automatically start failing school. The sooner you (not specifically you, general you) find out your kid is doing drugs and do everything you can to put a stop to it the bigger your chance of stopping the problem before it gets huge.
The lines get a bit blurry. I think it's absolutely about trusting instincts and listening to the instincts and doing what you truly believe to be in the best interest of your family as a whole. (Again, general you, not specifically you, lol).
Originally Posted by Aubergine68
What is the difference between "snooping just to `make sure' something isn't wrong" and appropriate supervision/monitoring, in all areas, but especially where it concerns internet use?
Snooping just to make sure that something isn't wrong is purposefully violating your child privacy (i.e. going through their things that you would other wise not looks through such as a diary or drawers if you don't do their laundry) monitoring is setting up a way things are done to ensure you have a better knowledge of what's going on. For instance, we'd don't always know exactly what dd does when she's on the computer, but she doesn't have a computer in her room and she's not allowed to use it without a parent in the house. No one in our house has an expectation of privacy on the computer, not even DH and I.
Originally Posted by grniys
I think most of what you're saying is pretty spot on... but the thing about drugs... wouldn't the grades start falling after it's been going on for sometime? I mean, they're not going to get high for the first time and automatically start failing school. The sooner you (not specifically you, general you) find out your kid is doing drugs and do everything you can to put a stop to it the bigger your chance of stopping the problem before it gets huge.
Drugs have more then one symptom, some show up sooner then others. That's why parents need to educate themselves. And someone who gets high once isn't necessarily going to get high again.
I've peeked, but haven't read. I think it's ok to look for key words, that's my boundary. More than that seems prying, rather than safety to me. I think everyone is entitled to their own personal boundaries though, and there is no absolute right or wrong.
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I guess one of the reasons I don't get the thing about being suicidal is that there was never anything in my room or anywhere else that would have tipped anyone off. I knew some parents snooped in diaries, and that alone was enough reason never to have one.
I suppose if a child had a diary or letters or something like that, snooping could be useful with a suicidal teen. It just seems very...iffy. I'll also add that if I'd found out years later that my parents had been reading my private journal/poems/etc., it would have been the end. I'd rather have someone spying on me in the freaking bathroom than reading my private thoughts...what an incredible invasion. The whole thing just creeps me out to a degree I can't describe.
I guess I just urge people to use caution. A pp mentioned that having a child grow up hating you is worth if if they grow up...but what if they don't? What if they're like me? What if snooping is enough to actually drive them over the edge?
I do know I'd do it if I really had deep concerns about something, but I'd feel like a terrible parent, and it would very much be the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine reading a diary for anything short of a child disappearing, and wanting to find out if there's any info about someone they might know or something. I specifically do not want to know about anything sexual they may write down. Their sexual thoughts are none of my business...and if they're already acting on them, I can't turn back the clock, in any case. As a woman of 40, I still want to hit the people who read my posts here - those posts were public, and meant to be read - but they weren't meant to be read by members of my family. If they'd been journal entries, meant to be written, but read by nobody, it would have been much, much worse.
Yeah to all of this. I can't tell you how much it bugged to me to know my dsd had gone into everyone's rooms in our house and stolen from us, or how much it bothered me to have to go into her room after my stuff. It just felt wrong. I remember being so pissed that my parents treated me that way and feeling like I could not trust my child was the same thing all over again. Your home, and especially your room, is supposed to be your sanctuary. Even going into someone else's room to get my own stuff felt wrong, because I feel so strongly about my own personal space, yk?
whew, it took me all day to read this thread ... lol ... there are some wonderful posts here but I feel I just need to add one thing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jezzy
I have read her diary, Last week. My dd (13) told me that she had a bf she has had a crush or two so I didn't think anything of it until she told me that he was 19!! I got scared what on earth does a 19 year old want from a 13 year old?
ok, I have btdt .... but If she told you these things then why did you have to snoop? How long do you think she is going to continue to tell you things when you betray her privacy like that? I have been through that with my dd - and yes I did snoop. I regret it, it was not helpful anyway and I feel bad about it to this day.
When I was 13 and started seeing an over-age guy, the minute we were threatened to stay away from each other, we just took off. That is not what I want with my kids ... sorry slightly ot
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_lissa
ITA. If you are concerned something is wrong, then do something. You don't need to snoop to intervene. If one snoops and doesn't find anything, are their fears going to be quelled? Probably not. I imagine the parent would still do something, so why not do something before snooping?
And you're right. Lack of privacy and respect can worsen depression, for example.
So many people are talking about - "if I thought my kids was in trouble with drugs/sex/suicidal I would snoop" amazes me... the above post represents my opinion, learned from my own experience.
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