*****DISCLAIMER*****
I do not shave my legs or my armpits and this thread is not intended to be a debate about shaving(It's crazy that I have to say that, lol). I am actually anti-shaving and this is really a support only thread for people who do not shave, not for people who do and want to chime in about how they do and they love it and yadda yadda yadda.
FTR I am friends with a lot of shavers and while they know my position I would never impose my beliefs on them or shame them for shaving and this post is not intended to make anyone feel bad, but for the sake of my question I wanted to be clear about my feelings and beliefs on this subject
So.
I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls. I am a woman, I have hair, embrace it!
I actually think hair is sexy, I love my husbands beard and musky scent, he is in no way a metro-man and I wouldn't have it any other way!
And he feels the same way for me! I have never actually had anyone complain that I didn't wax my pubic hair off or shave my legs(and because I don't the hair is soft and fine) or my underarms and I have been this way most of my life, excluding some time in my late teens and early twenties although even then it was spotty sometimes I did sometimes not.
So what I'm wondering is how I will aproach this with my dd. I know that TV and media in general support shaving, promote shaving and advertise shaving products like mad. We are not TV free.
I want to instill in her the idea that she is already created perfectly by God in his image. That she doesn't have to conform to society's gender roles like 'smooth big breasted sexy kitten girl' and what not.
But I don't want to alienate her if she is interested in shaving, either.
Do I need to just go TV free and really sensor her media? I am pretty anit-sensorship, but I don't want to program her with ideas I don't agree with just for the sake of not sensoring, y'know?
Sorry this is scattered.
TIA for any responses, I know a lot of people do shave and I will be surprised if anyone actually does respond to this wierd post, lol!!!!!
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
It really is tricky because the last thing that I want is o make her feel bad about natural curiosity.
I do want her to know the truth, though, and as I see it shaving has nothing good to offer.
I don't think I would feel bad if she wanted to try it or even if she liked doing it, that seems like a natural phase, it's more about her feeling like she needed to, even if that need was subconscious.
I think maybe if shaving is presented more as a fashion thing than a "must do" or "must not do" type of thing? An example- some women prefer short hair and some long, some women shave and some don't. If it's presented as a fashion issue I think that gets more to the issue at hand- that it is more about body image than anything else generally speaking. Kind of like calling circ what it is- cosmetic surgery.
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
And I also in my heart don't believe that any woman truely shaves only for her own self, that is my true belief, whether they think they do or not. (Flame if you like, but this is supposed to be a support only thread.)
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.
Originally Posted by magstphil
I'm not going to flame you as you are entitled to your own opinion but really who are you to truly know? I just don't think things are as black and white as they are in our own minds, ykwim? To me that's like saying you don't think people get a tattoo or piercing or lose weight or dress in a specific color for themselves. Sometimes people really do do things to feel more comfortable and more "them"
Lest you think I am just here to be a nay sayer
I really am finding this thread interesting! I also find women with body hair really attractive as does DH and have for some time. It has led to some interesting conversations with friends
Like I said, this is just how I feel in my heart, it doesn't have to be right or wrong, it's just how I feel and I'm ok with it. I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea. Again, that's just my opinion. I also feel like it is something women do to be "beautiful", not just out of boredom, I know I am never that bored and if someone were to be that bored I have some great ideas of ways to fill up that time, lol!
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
I presonally find it hard to believe that if our society was excepting or even promoting of natural hair on women that you would still fel compelled to shave and pluck "a lot". TO me you must do it, on some level, because of what others will think. I am not trying to single you out to ridicule you, I just feel in the context of this discussion this is perinent.
In my personal experience I was cutting my body hair with scissors starting very young because I was so uncomfortable physically with it. My mom and grandparents were 100% against me shaving so I begged my older cousin to bring a razor and show me how. I cannot tell you how liberating it felt. Believe it or not shaving is the only way I am not constantly digging at my skin. So I suppose I am just thankful for the option like I am thankful for the option and that I knew someone who knew how.
Quote:
I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea.
See the above. I wanted to get rid of my hair without really knowing how. I just wanted it gone so I started using scissors. That's how uncomfortable it makes me. I think it depends on the woman and the circumstances. If that woman was me and the sun was blaring heck yeah I'd be sharpening a rock. Same goes with trimming one's hair or beard.
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.
ITA with this- well put.
(and I don't shave, if that makes any difference!)
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.
I am seriously going to ignore any comments made like this, after this. This is inflammatory. I am simply saying how I feel, being as honest as possible, even though I know some people won't like it. It is actually ok not to agree with me, and it is ok for me to have opinions you don't like or even respect.
But I do have to wonder what the point of having a support thread is if people are going to just charge in and try to start a fight anyway?
I don't have all peachy-rosy opinions all the time. I don't actually like everything everyone does or why they do it. I said in my OP that I understood this was weird to some, that I have an opinion that most don't and I understand that. DOn't join in if you don't like the conversation. It's truely your choice. But I am not interested in *debating* this AT ALL. This is one sided because I am interested in people's opinions from the stand-point that I am coming from on this issue. Is that against the UA?
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
Like I said, this is just how I feel in my heart, it doesn't have to be right or wrong, it's just how I feel and I'm ok with it. I don't think shaving was ever something that a woman would have come up with living alone on a desert island never having been introduced to the idea. Again, that's just my opinion. I also feel like it is something women do to be "beautiful", not just out of boredom, I know I am never that bored and if someone were to that bored I have some great ideas of ways to fill up that time, lol!
Sorry to take the thread off topic, but I don't agree with the "a woman would never have come up with that" idea.
All people have greater and lesser levels of body hair. Some people like body hair, some don't. Women have personal preferences, just like men. Some women prefer men with hairy chests, some prefer men with hairless chests. Or like facial hair on men or don't like it. Or think hairy backs are gross or don't.
Are women who prefer hairless chests/faces/backs are guilty of the same sorts of pejorative judgements that have been thrown around about men? (that they are trying to infantilize, that they don't accept men in their natural form, etc)?
If it's okay for me as a woman to be more attracted to a man with a hairless chest, why is it not okay for me, as a women, to prefer myself with hairless legs? (and I'm not even saying these are my preferences, I'm just playing devil's advocate.)
Originally Posted by magstphil
In my personal experience I was cutting my body hair with scissors starting very young because I was so uncomfortable physically with it. My mom and grandparents were 100% against me shaving so I begged my older cousin to bring a razor and show me how. I cannot tell you how liberating it felt. Believe it or not shaving is the only way I am not constantly digging at my skin. So I suppose I am just thankful for the option like I am thankful for the option and that I knew someone who knew how.
See the above. I wanted to get rid of my hair without really knowing how. I just wanted it gone so I started using scissors. That's how uncomfortable it makes me. I think it depends on the woman and the circumstances. If that woman was me and the sun was blaring heck yeah I'd be sharpening a rock. Same goes with trimming one's hair or beard.
Mag~ You know I like you
But I really don't want to debate this at all. I am comfortable with my opinions on this and I really really don't want this to turn into a discussion where someone is trying to comvince someone else. That's why I said that in my OP.
well, I do shave (not as often as I would like to, so sometimes my leg hairs get pretty dang long, and fwiw DH does not mind at all) BUT, whether I shave or not has nothing to do with my DD's decision to shave or not. I would never not allow her, or force her to, shave.
Either way it's controlling, and silly to make those decisions for another human being. I mean, I wouldn't give my 4 yo a razor, and say do what makes you happy, but if my pre-teen DD was at a point where she herself wanted to shave, I would give her an electric razor like I use myself (it's pretty impossible to cut yourself, and to me that's the biggest risk I see when 'letting' your child shave).
Originally Posted by churndash
Sorry to take the thread off topic, but I don't agree with the "a woman would never have come up with that" idea.
All people have greater and lesser levels of body hair. Some people like body hair, some don't. Women have personal preferences, just like men. Some women prefer men with hairy chests, some prefer men with hairless chests. Or like facial hair on men or don't like it. Or think hairy backs are gross or don't.
Are women who prefer hairless chests/faces/backs are guilty of the same sorts of pejorative judgements that have been thrown around about men? (that they are trying to infantilize, that they don't accept men in their natural form, etc)?
If it's okay for me as a woman to be more attracted to a man with a hairless chest, why is it not okay for me, as a women, to prefer myself with hairless legs? (and I'm not even saying these are my preferences, I'm just playing devil's advocate.)
Yup!
And also I think I have figured out why I never thought of shaving as meaning you are trying to look like a child- because I had loads of body hair as a child!
Hmm, I always find the shaving conversation fascinating!
I do shave sometimes. Not because my hair is particularly course and thick. Not because it's more comfortable. But, just because I like to, and my particular iteration of my queer femme identity sometimes involves shaved legs. My DP does not shave, nor do any of the (mostly butch) women with whom I've had relationships over the past ten years.
The very fact of our family (queer femme me, genderqueer DP) means that my DD will be exposed to a variety of ideas about masculinity and femininity, gender and beauty, and what bodies look like. It absolutely terrifies me to think of all the Disney princess crap that she'll be exposed to in the world, but I have to believe that growing up in a house where a range of different notions about gender and beauty and bodies are, well, embodied, will help her to feel confident in herself, and in whatever choices she ultimately makes.
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama I do not shave because I feel like it is a disgusting habit invented by men to make grown women look more like little girls. I am a woman, I have hair, embrace it!
This is what I say all the time, but I still find myself shaving my armpit hair in the hot summers about once a week. This is solely for my comfort and for reducing my armpit sweat odor. (And why do I feel I must defend my choice to shave my armpit hair in the summer?
when I'm on a support only thread, no less.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
So what I'm wondering is how I will approach this with my dd. I know that TV and media in general support shaving, promote shaving and advertise shaving products like mad. We are not TV free.
I want to instill in her the idea that she is already created perfectly by God in his image. That she doesn't have to conform to society's gender roles like 'smooth big breasted sexy kitten girl' and what not.
But I don't want to alienate her if she is interested in shaving, either.
Do I need to just go TV free and really sensor her media? I am pretty anit-censorship, but I don't want to program her with ideas I don't agree with just for the sake of not censoring, y'know?
I don't think you need to go TV free. I just think you need to be there to offer a healthy perspective, to put in your two cents, to open up a discussion, so she won't feel the media is the one and only truth.
I agree with thismana and katie:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
I don't shave, and I think shaving is silly and yes infantalizing and uncomfortable. I will probably tell my daughter that if/when she asks, but what she does with her own body is her choice.
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Originally Posted by katiesk
i don't shave and i have wondered about these things...and what i emphasize when talking to other people about why i don't shave is that - our society puts A LOT of pressure on women to appear as very young girls - with tiny noses, no body hair, etc. this is the 'ideal' for women's appearance and the underlying concept is that men prefer young girls to mature women?
anyway, i think it is messed up, and while many women shave because they like it, is is more comfortable, etc, i don't shave because i do not want to perpetuate these "beauty myths". and while i don't really care if anyone else shaves or not (obviously not my business...) i do think that when women shave they are collectively perpetuating this "myth".
and...how much money are these people who sell shaving products making? TONS.
that is where i am coming from and my dd will know that. i would not forbid her to shave...obviously, but i don't know how much money i will be willing to spend on shaving products. and i hope that she has a different image and perspective around beauty and what that means for her.
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Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber
I don't shave, but I did when I was younger.
but I stopped shaving in my teens when I got involved in the punk/queer/feminist scenes.
I wouldn't censor media simply to avoid shaved women, but having an open dialogue about shaving, beauty standards, what has been beautiful through out time and how that changes etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber
I also don't wear make up and don't really have any in the house
However, I do pluck the surprising number of errant facial and chin hairs I have that seem to have multiplied since pregnancy, although I always feel like a hypocrite while I do it!
Me, too, to both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
Eh, in parenting I think it's okay to be and offer myself, as a person, to the job. So I'm okay with giving my uncensored opinions on things, instead of some evenhanded laying out of all the options with no personal opinion or guidance offered. I do however, know that my opinions are my own, my choices are my own made in the context of my own life and supports, and that my child may have different opinions and make different choices. I think it's okay to be ourselves as long as we respect that we don't know everything and our children may come to different, and equally valid, conclusions.
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Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
This is exactly how I feel. I know I can't really change people's minds but it makes me pretty sad that women are willingly buying into these "ideals" hook, line and sinker. I long for a world where women truly feel beautiful exactly as they are, where other people don't put emphasis on these kinds of things, where women and girls were not held to a man's standard of beauty which I think is RIDICULOUS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama
I agree that giving her the info is really all I can do and I will not feel like I failed if she shaves, but I will be grossed out if she dates a guy who likes her "clean and shaven" like a lot of my friends say about guys they have dated. Just the idea that she could or will feel unclean if she doesn't shave makes me really sad.
I'd have a really big problem if some guy wanted my daughters to shave (once they're of dating age, of course!). I would think they were pervs or pedophiles or freaks and I wouldn't want them anywhere around my daughters.
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
If it's supposed to be a support thread, why are you using it to decide the motives of women you don't even know, and decide that we don't even know why we do what we do, "even if we think so"? Arrogant and insulting. My only problem with women who don't shave is that too many of them make nasty, superior-minded assumptions about why other women (including me) do. If you want support, get support - but insulting other women, and then basically saying, "you can flame me if you want, but this is supposed to be a thread for support" is just taking cheap shots. I'm not flaming anybody - but you are.
i think it is ok to have strong feelings about something - like this - and while holding the feeling that something might be wrong, still not have any judgement for others who don't agree.
so the op clearly has string feelings around shaving, and she has some assumptions about others who shave...but i don't necessarily think that she is being judgemental. or i guess, i could just come from my own point of view - i really do think that most of the people i know who shave do it largely due to societal pressure. not that someone has specifically pressured them, but it is culturally weird, dirty, "hippie" etc not to shave. most people don't want to be seen as a weird, dirty hippie! anyway, i think that although my friends agree with my thoughts around shaving, they still do it because to not do it would be uncomfortable...thinking about what others think of them. i mean, they have basically said as much. so, i think that is perpetuating these unfortunate beauty stereotypes. but do i care? do i want to judge them for it? nope. everyone gets to decide what they do with their own bodies. but i do think that shaving for the most part is unfortunate.
i don't shave, okay i rarely shave, like 2 times in the past year. dd likes to play with my arm pit hair while she is bfing and if i shave, she just pinches me! i'm not sure what i will tell dd about shaving when she gets older. i think i'll let her form her own oppinion about it. i don't shave because it's a waste of time, it drys out my skin and it doesn't always fell natural.
personally, i don't mind body hair. my dh is very hairy. i'm italian and i'm just use to seeing hairy men growing up. my mother is very conforming with 'social norms' and always shaved. i started to shave when i was 14 because i thought i 'had to'. i felt pressured from peers and my own mother. i'm happy i'm way beyond that phase and i'm much more comfortable with my body how it is than i was as a teen and don't feel like i have to compare myself to another.
I really just wanted to know what other people will be doing or are doing about being an unshaven mom and explaining this complex social issue to their dd and I have gotten some good responses to that for which I am appreciative.
I do have strong feelings about this and I do have strong feelings about the responses I have gotten from women who feel the need to be defensive about their choice to shave.
I like the idea that I can authentically be myself as a mom, truely say what I feel, but still embrace my daughters right to explore this issue on her own. I know that she will open my eyes to many issues in the future, as she has already done so on her short time on this earth. Maybe this will be one of those issues, time will tell.
I've always thought Desmond Morris' stuff about human sexuality is really interesting. here is an excerpt of his that gives a well-balanced discussion of hair growth and removal (this excerpt is specific to pubic hair).
Originally Posted by Mama2Rio
i don't shave, okay i rarely shave, like 2 times in the past year. dd likes to play with my arm pit hair while she is bfing and if i shave, she just pinches me! i'm not sure what i will tell dd about shaving when she gets older. i think i'll let her form her own oppinion about it. i don't shave because it's a waste of time, it drys out my skin and it doesn't always fell natural.
personally, i don't mind body hair. my dh is very hairy. i'm italian and i'm just use to seeing hairy men growing up. my mother is very conforming with 'social norms' and always shaved. i started to shave when i was 14 because i thought i 'had to'. i felt pressured from peers and my own mother. i'm happy i'm way beyond that phase and i'm much more comfortable with my body how it is than i was as a teen and don't feel like i have to compare myself to another.
It really is such a vast waste of time, LOL!
When I have lived with female roommates in the past it amazes me how much time they spend shaving, it has to happen like everyday......which blows my mind. I don't even shower everday and that is truely an understatement. And the shaving is really just the tip of the iceberg as far as time wasted on "beauty" regimens, but that is another post that I will probably never attempt!
Originally Posted by limabean
I've always thought Desmond Morris' stuff about human sexuality is really interesting. here is an excerpt of his that gives a well-balanced discussion of hair growth and removal (this excerpt is specific to pubic hair).
I will tell my daughter this: http://radicalchristiancrunchyknotty...-we-shave.html and if she still wants to shave that's her business as long as she's old enough to control the razor and not slice herself up.
We are tv free but we still have to deal with worldly influence. Just tell her how you feel mama and support her decisions even if they are different. I'm fully prepared to have a high heel/make-up/nail polish wearing shaven/waxed daughter lol. It's just not that much of an issue for me as long as I stress to her that she doesn't need those things but is choosing them because she likes them for herself.
KristaDJ~ I am reading your blog post in spurts and loving it so far.
sisteeesmama~ I hope you don't mind me sticking around. I did come here because I have 5 daughters and am curious about things like this. I didn't mean to turn the thread so OT but the comments being made about women like me were just so far off. I understand wanting a support only thread but it's hard to maintain one when comments are made that can be hurtful and untrue about a group of people, ykwim? So I spoke up. It's what I do.
Again, sorry I took your thread so OT. Hope you don't mind if I stick around. As I said this is something with having daughters that I do have on my mind .
Originally Posted by magstphil KristaDJ~ I am reading your blog post in spurts and loving it so far.
sisteeesmama~ I hope you don't mind me sticking around. I did come here because I have 5 daughters and am curious about things like this. I didn't mean to turn the thread so OT but the comments being made about women like me were just so far off. I understand wanting a support only thread but it's hard to maintain one when comments are made that can be hurtful and untrue about a group of people, ykwim? So I spoke up. It's what I do.
Again, sorry I took your thread so OT. Hope you don't mind if I stick around. As I said this is something with having daughters that I do have on my mind .
Of course I don't mind *at all*, like I said I like you and often times we agree pretty succinctly, don't we! So we don't agree on this really at all, I am still glad to have you in this thread
I haven't shaved in several years. It's my body, and I'm happy with my G-d given womanly hair.
However, I trust that once my daughters are old enough to grow womanly hair of their own, they're old enough to make their own decisions about their bodies. DD1 started shaving her legs around age 12. I buy her razors and I taught her how to shave safely. I also remind her frequently that she doesn't HAVE to keep on shaving if she doesn't want to. She's recently stopped shaving her armpits
although she still does shave her legs.
DD2 doesn't really have anything to shave just yet, and at this point plans to remain fuzzy. But we'll see what happens in a few months or years- if she changes her mind, that's OK too.
I know all the societal reasons for shaving, the history of it, etc. But the fact remains that my kids DO live in the current world, and if either or both of them is more comfortable with her body if she shaves, it really is OK. I'm not going to push my ideology onto THEIR bodies. It's only hair. It grows back.
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