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Raising Girls in a Misogynistic Culture

5K views 65 replies 33 participants last post by  mammal_mama 
#1 ·
I'm an egalitarian who actually used to think, before having kids, that sexism was getting rarer and rarer in America these days. Then I had children, and first off I learned that some people see it as "immodest" for a mother to just lift her shirt and feed her hungry baby or child.

In the ten years since having my older dd, I've become increasingly aware of how the standards of modesty are much harder on girls than on boys. I was recently confronted by a 12yo at our neighborhood playground because it upset and disgusted her than my 5yo fell down and her dress when up, and she got a glimpse of dd's butt-cheek.

This girl's offense seemed especially ludicrous to me when I considered that she wasn't the least bit concerned that her own little brother was running around in pants so big they kept falling down and exposing his underwear...

Of course, it's easy enough to put shorts on under dresses for my 5yo, though it kind of annoys me that some people would get so worked up about a little girl playing and not being all self-conscious and prim about her dress -- but this isn't the only little drop of sexism I'm witnessing.

True, we are mainly dealing with a lot of comments from a group of playground bullies at the moment -- but I can't help realizing that these views are not just confined to this one group of kids.

One of the bullies was recently getting onto my 10yo for "swinging with her legs apart" -- the bully, a girl herself, called my dd a "he-she." I've had to encourage dd to tell these kids it's none of their business when they question her about her bathing habits or wonder why she's "dusty."

She simply loves playing outdoors and getting super wild with it sometimes ... and I'm kind of glad she's not "settling down" and becoming sedentary like some of her peers, even though she is now 5'2" tall and weighs 120 lbs and has some breast and hip development.

The other day dd1 commented that it wasn't fair that the boys could pull off their shirts to cool down when they were hot and sweaty at the playground, and no one said a thing, but she "couldn't." I agreed that it wasn't fair, and I also said that she probably literally "could" take off her shirt -- but that it would attract a lot of attention that I didn't think she would want, and she agreed that it wouldn't be a good idea.

I know this issue is really hot in my mind right now because of the various difficulties we've encountered with this one group of kids who frequents the playground -- but it's honestly not "just" about them. I've encountered other people who seem to think it's "disgusting" for girls and women not to be extremely conscious at all times about modesty, but think nothing about a shirtless man jogging down a public street.

I feel like I want to help my girls avoid unnecessary problems, which probably means it's a good idea for my little one to wear shorts under dresses, but at the same time I want to raise empowered young women who aren't willing to cower in some corner to fit into someone else's idea of a "modest young lady."

I welcome everyone's input and stories!
 
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#27 ·
My MIL really bugs me with this whole issue. She is overall a great grandma but very stuck in stererotypical gender roles. Maybe it's because she only had boys or her traditional southern upbringing but she insists that girl's only play with "girl toys" and wear "girl clothes". She only ever sends princess-themed pink stuff (I drew the line at Barbie). Honestly, she is bored with these toys after a few minutes. I have had to put a stop to things she would say to DD - "you don't want to play with that, it's for boys!" On her last visit she got upset at DD because she refused to wear pigtails or ribbons in her hair. "Don't you want to look nice? Don't you want to look pretty?" - I stepped in and stopped her right there - I mean really - she is THREE years old and we were going to the playground? Why on earth does it matter how "good" or "pretty" she looks?
 
#28 ·
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Originally Posted by COgirl19 View Post
My MIL really bugs me with this whole issue. She is overall a great grandma but very stuck in stererotypical gender roles. Maybe it's because she only had boys or her traditional southern upbringing but she insists that girl's only play with "girl toys" and wear "girl clothes". She only ever sends princess-themed pink stuff (I drew the line at Barbie). Honestly, she is bored with these toys after a few minutes. I have had to put a stop to things she would say to DD - "you don't want to play with that, it's for boys!" On her last visit she got upset at DD because she refused to wear pigtails or ribbons in her hair. "Don't you want to look nice? Don't you want to look pretty?" - I stepped in and stopped her right there - I mean really - she is THREE years old and we were going to the playground? Why on earth does it matter how "good" or "pretty" she looks?

Just chiming in to say that I have the same problem with the IL's, although we have a 3 yr old boy. He wanted a play kitchen for Christmas last year, because he absolutely LOVES to help me cook in the kitchen. Granted, he helps me with real things at this point, and there's no need for the play kitchen. But when I told IL's this was what he wanted, the REFUSED to get it because "That's a girl toy". Um, hello, no it's not! It's a toy for children!

MIL also gets upset if he even so much as colors a pink picture. He happens to like how pink looks on paper. Not a problem for DH and I.

Also, he is athletic- very, very gifted athletically, and of course we encourage this since it is a natural talent. But IL's act as though it is his only quality of any value! If I say what a sweet boy he is, they say, "oh who cares! as long as he can hit the baseball" and stuff like that. They don't care how smart he is or anything else, just his athletic ability. It drives me bananas. We also got the "boys are lazy" comments since he did not walk until 14 months. We have a niece too, and they are horribly sexist when it comes to her too. She is supposed to be pretty and dressed perfectly at all times, can never get dirty, etc. They get super upset if she has a speck of food on her. Problem is, her mom is the same way. Grr.

I just wish in general our society didn't devalue both sexes. It makes me sad.
 
#29 ·
I don't understand this problem with "showing your underwear". I have been reading some posts and I have to say I agree that it is a problem for both genders. I only have girls and they are little but we have already encountered multiple comments, attitudes and looks regarding their gender in relation to what they were doing or wearing. It worries me but I sincerely hope that what we do at home will have the bigger impact on them and I try to stay conscience of what I say and do to ensure I don't tell them something I wouldn't tell a son/male.

But this underwear thing keeps soming up. For the op I find it quite strange that anyone would be offended by a little 5yo accidentally exposing her butt or her underwear. I also would find it strange if someone were offended if I accidentally showed my underwear. I understand offense if I were purposely exposing myself and you found it lewd (sp?), but if I was wearing a skirt and squatted down to help my kids and accidently someone saw my underwear I would not care. Its underwear. I am not sitting there trying to flash anyone and I assume your 5 yo was not either. Same goes with an tween or teen for me.
 
#30 ·
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Originally Posted by Bellabaz View Post
But this underwear thing keeps soming up. For the op I find it quite strange that anyone would be offended by a little 5yo accidentally exposing her butt or her underwear. I also would find it strange if someone were offended if I accidentally showed my underwear. I understand offense if I were purposely exposing myself and you found it lewd (sp?), but if I was wearing a skirt and squatted down to help my kids and accidently someone saw my underwear I would not care. Its underwear. I am not sitting there trying to flash anyone and I assume your 5 yo was not either. Same goes with an tween or teen for me.
Personally, if I knew I were going to be in a situation where my underwear had a possibility of showing (or if my daughter was in one...like going to the playground) I'd make sure that it was covered somehow. When I attended a private Christian school we had to wear skirts/dresses every Thursday for chapel...it wasn't unheard of for the girls to wear tights or bike shorts underneath so they could still run and play at recess...
 
#31 ·
I guess I don't see the big deal about underwear. It is clothing... what makes it naughtier than pants or a shirt? swim suits? Unless it is being purposely shown off or is more lingerie style (which I hope people dont put on little kids) but even diapers are similar and my kiddo is often just in a diaper... why will she have to wear full clothing as soon as she is potty trained? A glimpse of underwear once in awhile shouldn't be such a horrible thing. Sometimes it happens. Heck, at least people don't wear underwear on the outside of pants or tights like superheros! hehe
 
#32 ·
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Originally Posted by treeoflife3 View Post
I guess I don't see the big deal about underwear. It is clothing... what makes it naughtier than pants or a shirt? swim suits? Unless it is being purposely shown off or is more lingerie style (which I hope people dont put on little kids) but even diapers are similar and my kiddo is often just in a diaper... why will she have to wear full clothing as soon as she is potty trained? A glimpse of underwear once in awhile shouldn't be such a horrible thing. Sometimes it happens. Heck, at least people don't wear underwear on the outside of pants or tights like superheros! hehe
I don't see little kid underwear as "naughty" or anything...but I think it's more of a teaching good habits early on kind of thing.
 
#33 ·
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Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
I don't see little kid underwear as "naughty" or anything...but I think it's more of a teaching good habits early on kind of thing.
Hmm. I guess I think playing is a pretty good habit for a 5yo. Of course, it's easy enough to pull shorts on under a dress but, for whatever reason, I failed to do it that day.


It seemed like rather a double-standard to me for someone to be fixated on my child's dress going up when she fell down one time, while not caring that her little brother's pants were perpetually falling down.

And, honestly, I'm with Storm Bride in not caring if boys want to wear that baggy pants style; it's just not that big of a deal either way.
 
#34 ·
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.
I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.
It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
 
#35 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Hmm. I guess I think playing is a pretty good habit for a 5yo. Of course, it's easy enough to pull shorts on under a dress but, for whatever reason, I failed to do it that day.


It seemed like rather a double-standard to me for someone to be fixated on my child's dress going up when she fell down one time, while not caring that her little brother's pants were perpetually falling down.

And, honestly, I'm with Storm Bride in not caring if boys want to wear that baggy pants style; it's just not that big of a deal either way.
I see both situations as inappropriate. I don't think that one sex should be excluded from having to keep their undies covered. Now, my son's diaper shows on occasion (and we try to pull up his shorts when it does) but he recently got taller and lost some fat...and he's 17mo.

...and I just think the "baggy pants style" looks tacky.
 
#36 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.
I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.
It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
FWIW I do...not to them but I don't make comments to people about their kids. I make an effort to keep myself covered and would do so for my children.
 
#37 ·
At some point my 8-year-old dd became modest and didn't want anyone to catch a glimpse of her underwear no matter what. I don't remember just how old she was, maybe 6? But I didn't worry about it, and even now I let her take the lead as far as that goes. I'm more worried about creating a sense of bodily shame in her than I am about anyone seeing her underwear.
 
#38 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
It surprises me in the world and it surprises me more in the crunchy community. Last year, I posted about how my six-year-old was sitting quietly in a teahouse with her legs apart. A woman walked up and started yelling at her. At us. She said that my dd was the reason people molested little girls.I came on here for support and wow. All I got was an earful of how I should have put shorts under my dds dress.It makes me sad that a poor hurt five year old is overlooked because her butt is showing. I have no idea why people are like this.
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.

Oh.my.god. that statment is so f*ed up. Right, and women who wear skimpy outfits are just asking to be raped too, huh? Im totally discusted that anyone would say that to you and your daughter.

I really dont understand the whole "keep your legs closed" deal. They are kids, if they want to wear their halloween costume and hang upside down from a tree, I dont think it matters. IMO, when it is important for humans to cover themselves should be when they *feel* uncomfortable, not when society tells them to.

Sorry you didnt get support. Did you tell her off or were you just too stunned to say anything. I think I may have sat there with my mouth open, trying to think of where to begin with someone dumb enough to accuse my daughter of being the reason for molestation. I want to kick that lady for you.
 
#39 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
And, yes, I have seen so much adult man and woman butt crack in the last, what, ten years. No one comments on that.
I think people criticize that all the time. Not even just the "modest" crowd or something. There are entire webpages dedicated to making fun of people dressed in ugly or unflattering outfits, and they're mostly people showing underwear in one way or another. When the super low rise jeans were in style a few years back, it was pretty common to make fun of women wearing thongs under them because you could quite plainly see the "butt floss," as I've heard it referred to. And have you really never heard of anyone making fun of "plumber's crack"?
 
#40 ·
I don't see the point in wearing a dress if you have to wear shorts underneath. I thought the whole point of a dress was airflow? If I wanted to wear shorts, I would have skipped the dress entirely. I dunno. I'm not a dress-wearing sort.

And then, why is bike shorts not inappropriate but underwear is? If you're wearing bike shorts under your dress, they are essentially your underwear for that outfit.

I'm not saying anyone should be out flashing their underwear at people, but so what if you see a little?

But then, I see dresses as a way of keeping little girls restricted to begin with. Not that I don't let my kids wear them if they want.
 
#41 ·
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Originally Posted by lach View Post
And I do agree that I don't think that miniskirts are appropriate for girls who are young enough to play on the playground. I think that high fashion trickles down to young girls much more so than to young boys, and that clothes that are appropriate for adults (or not, I don't really care) are NOT appropriate for kids who need to be able to move freely and run and play. I can't tell you how many young girls I see at the playground in little slip-on ballet flats or flipflops that they can't run in, in super tight skinny jeans that don't allow movement, in tiny miniskirts that they're constantly tugging down. I don't think that it's appropriate for kids of either sex to show underwear, but I can't say that I've ever actually seen a boy doing it. They still get to run around in sneakers and jeans and oversize t shirts. It's not even entirely a "modesty" issue, it's also a practical one. Those clothes just aren't practical to play in. You can't go down a slide in a miniskirt that rides up: your butt won't slide down the hot metal slide easily.

Again, I find this an issue of consumption more than pure misogyny. Companies make a lot of money selling "grown up" fashions to parents of little girls, so of course they do it. I guess I just don't understand what makes the parents think that $120 ballet flats from Crew Cuts that don't stay on are a good idea for the playground. And I'm happy to dress my DD in low-fashion but practical clothes for as long as she'll let me, but at the same time I know that when she starts getting teased for it I'll cave and buy her the stuff that "everyone else" wears. I just hope that it doesn't happen for a long time...

I agree strongly with this post. I have done home childcare for years and also have been very involved with my sons' preschool. Every year, we have to specify that girls (it's *never* boys) need to be sent in clothes that are appropriate/comfortable for active play indoors and out in a cooler climate -- good shoes, clothes that are ok to paint in , stretch in, run in, climb in, etc.

I don't know what to call it - `fashion forward' clothes for girls? -- slow the girls down. They can't run as fast in sandals, as the boys can in sneakers. They can't let loose and paint or glue or play with gak if they are afraid of mussing their dresses. I've been presented with a bill for new clothes by parents who sent their dd to my program in designer clothing and then got mad at me because the red tempera paint at the craft center that smeared in the clothing despite paint shirts wouldn't wash out (No, I didn't pay it.
) Girls can't go in puddles or in deep snow in the girly ankle boots that match their coats like the boys can in their practical waterproof rain boots or snow boots. Girls, usually smaller and thinner than boys to start with, shiver outdoors in lightweight but pretty jackets while boys jump in the snow in the parkas and snowpants their parents send. Even the snowsuits *made* for girls are often of lesser quality in terms of keeping a child warm than boys' suits are, though that seems to be improving in recent years.

Girls have to stop and pull their low-rise jeans up or their miniskirts down. Girls don't want to go on the slide or into the bush by our house with miniskirts/shorts/sandals on for fear of bug bites or hot metal or scratchy thistles. Girls in miniskirts need more bandaids on the knees than boys in long pants, I find.

I'm not against dresses -- my dd wore them all the time, but layered over leggings or pants for practicality and with appropriate warm sweaters and shoes. I'm not against self-expression. That's what my dressup center is for.

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Originally Posted by NewMoonMum View Post
I have to say I'm always surprised at people who think sexism is a thing of the past. That is no more true than racism "being a thing of the past".
This.
 
#42 ·
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But then, I see dresses as a way of keeping little girls restricted to begin with. Not that I don't let my kids wear them if they want.
Must disagree. I grew up dresses-only. Everything the boys did, we did. We had bloomers, shorts underneath. The dresses were a religious thing, the shorts were a modesty thing (cover more than underwear) but they were not restrictive.

It's the type of clothing that is restrictive. A miniskirt or very tight clothing is restrictive. A light, full cotton skirt isn't at all.
 
#43 ·
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Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
Must disagree. I grew up dresses-only. Everything the boys did, we did. We had bloomers, shorts underneath. The dresses were a religious thing, the shorts were a modesty thing (cover more than underwear) but they were not restrictive.

It's the type of clothing that is restrictive. A miniskirt or very tight clothing is restrictive. A light, full cotton skirt isn't at all.
I agree. I still prefer a flowy skirt to something fitted.
 
#44 ·
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Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
I will admit, my hot button issue of late, once I cannot escape even here on MDC, is the idea that good, healthy girls will not enter puberty.
I see this having an impact on my innocent daughter, who has started on that journey at 8 (right on target for getting her period at the same age I did) and who has already started to ask questions as to why puberty is "bad".
Oh yeah, my pet peeve too. Nothing says misogyny like the attitude to becoming a woman. Little girl = good, big girl = dirty...And even little girl with underwear showing = dirty.

"My age XX daughter still plays with dolls..." as though that is somehow more virtuous than growing up and having a perfectly natural interest in and curiosity about sexuality.
 
#45 ·
Ugh, I hate the "close your legs" phrase!
It sounds so dirty and provocative, like a young girl is purposefully exposing her privates to attract predators. It's sickening.
I have three girls and for the most part I have them wear leggings or shorts under their dresses. I don't want them to feel restricted in their play.
 
#46 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hey Mama! View Post
Ugh, I hate the "close your legs" phrase!
It sounds so dirty and provocative, like a young girl is purposefully exposing her privates to attract predators. It's sickening.
I have three girls and for the most part I have them wear leggings or shorts under their dresses. I don't want them to feel restricted in their play.
Yes, it reminds of one of the bully-girls at our local playground who harassed my 10yo dd for "swinging with her legs open" (I know I already mentioned this in the OP, but it seems relevant to mention it again here). My 10yo always wears pants or shorts to the playground, so it wasn't a case of anything "showing."

But this other little girl was telling dd "Yo mama need to cut yo hair ... you a he-she!" And of course I know an 8 or 9yo child didn't come up with all this "keep your legs together" crap on her own, so it kind of makes me sad; I wonder if her mama is a misogynist? It actually does seem like mothers can be just as female-hating as fathers can.

What's really sad is the way these bully-girls like to hang around with a teen boy who has molested at least one 11yo girl. I suppose their heads are so filled with garbage about how girls who get molested must have momentarily unclenched their legs so it's their fault, that it doesn't occur to them that some boys and men are bad news. I guess the men are just "being men" and it's up to the girls to keep their legs clenched.
 
#47 ·
I saw a teaser for a "news" clip (which I never got to see) about 6-year-old cheerleaders chanting inappropriate cheers. I couldn't wait to see what was so terrible. Then I remembered my mom talking recently about a "cheer" we used to do on the playground when I was 10. The ending went, "The boys got the muscles, the teachers got the brains. The girls got the sexy legs and WE WON THE GAME!" We really didn't pay much attention to the words then, but now I'd be sad for several reasons to hear my daughter saying that. (What does a 10-year-old know from "sexy?" And really? The best thing about boys and girls is their body parts? The TEACHERS are the only ones with brains? Ugh)
 
#48 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
I saw a teaser for a "news" clip (which I never got to see) about 6-year-old cheerleaders chanting inappropriate cheers. I couldn't wait to see what was so terrible. Then I remembered my mom talking recently about a "cheer" we used to do on the playground when I was 10. The ending went, "The boys got the muscles, the teachers got the brains. The girls got the sexy legs and WE WON THE GAME!" We really didn't pay much attention to the words then, but now I'd be sad for several reasons to hear my daughter saying that. (What does a 10-year-old know from "sexy?" And really? The best thing about boys and girls is their body parts? The TEACHERS are the only ones with brains? Ugh)
My girls learned this one, and I can't stand it, especially the bolded

apples on a stick, make me sick
Makes my heart go 246
Not because I'm dirty
Not because I'm clean
Not because I kissed a boy behind a magazine
Hey girls wanna have some fun
Here comes a boy with his pants undone

He can do the pom poms
He can do the splits
but all he wants to do is kiss, kiss, kiss
Close your eyes and count to 10,
If you mess up you'll lose your boyfriend
 
#50 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
Oh, my! I'm so not looking forward to seeing what will be making "lipstick parties" seem tame when my boy is a teenager...
IDK who I feel worse for, the boys or the girls!
They still have "lipstick parties" but the lipstick doesn't end up on the boy's face...
 
#51 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
Oh, my! I'm so not looking forward to seeing what will be making "lipstick parties" seem tame when my boy is a teenager...
IDK who I feel worse for, the boys or the girls!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFWife View Post
They still have "lipstick parties" but the lipstick doesn't end up on the boy's face...
I don't know if you guys are being tongue in cheek, but lipstick parties are an urban legend made up to sell a YA novel. There's absolutely no evidence that one has ever occurred, and any adolescent psychologist will tell you that it's about the last thing any teen is interested in being involved in, for a variety of reasons. It somehow made it to Oprah, as her fact-checking department doesn't have the greatest record.
 
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