Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lilya
PrennaMama, I can understand the confusion about the idea of shame. I think those who use public assistance as an excuse to be lazy and negligent with their lives and to be parasitic because it is less work than being self-sufficient should be ashamed. But, those who have legitimately fallen on hard times should not be ashamed to use public assistance. Those are the people it exists for, and they could have more resources dedicated to them if there weren't so many people who are taking from others for bad reasons.
|
I have no confusion about the position you hold on whether the women you have spoken of should be ashamed of themselves... It is clear that you (and you are not alone, many share this viewpoint) delineate between those deserving of the gov't assistance programs we all pay into at some point and those not deserving of these programs, based on a some kind of moral score-board. Are you aware of how you sound? I respect the open-forum sharing of opinions, I do. Your opinions (as bolded and highlighted above) are formed by your paradigm. That paradigm is fixed by your perception of a select group of women who seem to be really under your skin because their moral compass is not the same as yours. The fact that you then justify your descriptions by admitting that you don't say these things to their faces, just here, to others who don't know them, makes it all the more unpleasant to witness... If you can see that it wouldn't be good to say things like this to their faces, then maybe your paradigm needs a second look. My family has a few members who'd start a Welfare Queen Lynch Mob if they could, standing on that moral high-ground, handing out judgements, saying, "Look at those losers... look at their children! What monsters." and it makes me sad, because there is just
NOT this black/white line between deserving and not deserving. I have even been guilty of looking down at low-income families with whom I've little in common, philosophically, but after being on assistance, and interacting on a different level with many of these same kinds of families... I don't see them the same way anymore.
As for winners versus losers, this is exactly the kind of dogma I was referring to... as if life is a game and the people who play it right will be big ol' winners, and the folks that make the
baaad choices are losers...
:
Quote:
Re: Strength of character or moral focus:
I don't think that is an excuse. I can understand a desire to have everyone in society contribute to helping those who have bad luck. But, I can't approve of forcing my fellow citizens to dedicate a portion of their hard-earned income to support people who have weak characters.
|
Again, what is it about the bad luck or hard-times thing? Is that really a qualifier? Is there some morality paperwork I missed out on that states that in order to avoid the eye-rolls and downward looks a family has to be humbly meek and truly
without to draw on these benefits?
Quote:
They don't want help to be on their feet. They don't want to be self-sufficient members of society. That is what I meant by them not wanting help. They don't want the fishing rod -- they want someone else to provide them with fish for all eternity.
|
What would happen if you opened a dialogue with one of these women? What would happen to your perception if, in that dialogue, you saw just a woman, just a mother?... and she told you as a woman and as a mother, she is miserable, she feels like a loser, that she hates feeling weak... like the system and her community failed her... If she were to open herself to you, like that, and show her vulnerability, describe
herself using the same verbage you have used here... would she then be deserving of the help she receives... again, from a gov't assistance program that we all have had to pay into at some point?
Quote:
I DO give to them, more than by just taxes. But, the more I give, the more they want from me, and the more dependent they get on me. I have learned, very recently, to stop enabling them. They would take from me until I had nothing left for my own family.
|
I think you're right, unfortunately... it sounds like nothing will help this mother to better parent her children, short of severe, legal intervention... Neglect of the type you described is horrendous and somebody needs to step in.
Quote:
You don't have to make excuses about your choices to me. Please don't feel insecure (
: ) about it so that you need external approval from any of us here. You KNOW you made your choices based on concern for what is best for your family. You KNOW you are at home taking care of your family, not selfishly goofing off and neglecting your dd all day. I don't need to know these things, you do, and that is what matters.
|
See, and this just tears it. Not only are you parceling out character judgements and morality labels, you assume that what I shared with you (in an effort to illustrate that we are an example of the types who use assistance and are not on hard-times, are not unlucky, and do not feel guilty) was done out of some misguided need for validation. Yes, I may know why we made our choices, and yes I do feel secure about what we do... but YOU don't know what my moral compass is. I could be sitting here with a bong for all you know, while dd runs naked into the driveway.... she's been known to! Lol.
My point is, and I apologize if you're feeling like I'm picking on
you to make that point... We are all women, we are all mothers... That makes us in my eyes, sisters. We have a hard lot in this society anyway, without lording morality over one another. My point is that for those of you who can't stand behind another woman with support and tolerance despite your differences in styles or choices, that's fine; but don't stand
over her, either. You have not walked in her shoes, and watching her walk some miles doesn't mean you have the wisdom to judge the path she walks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama
I really don't think the pp is trying to make excuses. I know I haven't been.
I think the reason many of us are sharing some specific things about our situations, is to provoke deeper thought in those expressing anger, or critical attitudes, toward (or about) stay-at-home-moms who draw public assistance.
We're (or at least I'm) not seeking (or needing) vindication from these people, who have no more right to judge us than we have to judge them.
I would just really like for people to respect one another, regardless of differences in income or lifestyle. Just as I should respect another mom enough to refrain from telling her, " You really COULD stay home if you'd just make some lifestyle changes, or if you were willing to go on assistance."
<snip>
I'm just sharing this as an example of how we're all capable of looking down on others. My judgment didn't help my friend, even though I felt my opinions were totally sound, in the same way that someone who's "angry about welfare moms" feels their opinions are sound.
The thing about being a low-income sah mom who uses assistance -- there are always some people who think you need their unsolicited advice. Just as working mamas aren't asking me to tell them what they could do to be able to stay home -- sah mamas on assistance aren't asking anyone to tell them how they could "just get a part-time job and get off welfare."
Respect. Respect. Respect: can ya' dig it?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama
I don't think this thread is passive aggressive in the slightest. It opened a conversation, as threads do. The point was not to provide an opportunity for everyone to voice their opinions, including anti-welfare opinions, with no response from the OP to those opinions, and no resulting discussion.
That would be ridiculous.
|
mammal_mama, I wanted to thank you for opening this thread... it has given me much to meditate upon, and I have shared the contents with friends and family that span the full scope of experience and perception, from sympathetic, to pitying, and angry to entitled.
I think it's extremely important to examine things like welfare from all the angles, and question policy and policy makers... I think it's important to understand where folks come from in their experience, even if we don't philosophically fall on the same side of an issue like this. You never know what you'll learn, what might cause a paradigm shift in yourself or what new perspective another might glean from you...
We have to talk.. we have to ask... we have to try to mutually understnad... if we don't, then the powers that be, the rusty machines, have won... and we are nothing but a quiet slave to the machine.
Thank you!
eta: I wouldn't want anyone to walk away from any of my posts feeling offended, but I'm not going to jump on any apologizing band-wagon... I stand by the ideal that we are moving forward to a new era, and that the best way to do that is to stand by eachother in support and tolerance.