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Washington Post article is up

6K views 83 replies 27 participants last post by  josephine_e 
#1 ·
#27 ·
Quote:
"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
Oh my word, and this woman claims to know about birth? What ISN'T broken in the system? cripes, that's scary.
 
#28 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bluefish View Post
"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
After reading the discussion with Laura and Rothman, I wonder if this quote wasn't taken a bit out of context. In the discussion, Rothman clearly feels the hospital system doesn't work and that homebirth is superior (even while opposing UC). My read (after reading the discussion) is that she may have meant this to highlight that the system has problems. I'd be surprised if she meant that homebirth midwifery is "the system."
 
#29 ·
Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that). I really admire how much knowledge you all have regarding what to do in different situations, but I definitely wasn't brave enough to UC twins (way to go, MamaRabbit!).
 
#30 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by michellyn View Post
Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that)...
Well if you have another birth and the baby comes too fast for attendance, depending on your intended birthplace you'll be in your car on the road or in your home.

I have a couple friends who've had car births. The one whose water broke in the car was never able to get the smell out of the carpet/padding, ventilation system. They ended up trading it in. My precipitous labors were all at home. I vote for home.


~BV
 
#31 ·
I've had to step away from the "fight" for birth rights because I just cant help but get SOOO ticked off by it all. The quote:

Quote:
"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
is what they should ALL be asking themselves. If this was really a service put in place to help women, it should not have turned into all the garbage that it has. I really feel like the system is simply so broken that there is no point in being a part of it. I just flat out refuse to use my children's births as a way to fight the system. I made the conscious choice to avoid the hospital (and any kind of OB/CNM for the last month or so) because birth just isnt a time when I wanted to fight and fear for my safety and my rights. No woman should be put into that situation.

I give Laura and Lynn huge props for being advocates for UC. I definitely think it should be an option, and it burns me up that we, as women, are told what we need to do by those who have no idea what is going on with our bodies.

EDIT: and why did they lump it in with non-vaxing??? I see that as a totally seperate issue. Does everyone here not vax? I really never saw it as a correlation. I hate when they lump things together to get the "vote" of those who find something else extreme t hat is completely unrelated.
 
#32 ·
Quote:
Anthropologists that observed healthy tribal cultures a hundred years ago often reported that they rarely saw a death or complication in childbirth.
Is there a source for this Laura? I'd love to read up on it more.

Quote:
Why do you think it would be something that people would want to do, apart from cost and novelty?
I paid for my ENTIRE prenatal care and childbirth for my last child prior to changing plans and UC'ing. (minus about $54 that they had the nerve to call me and ask for) And I dont know about this woman, but my daughter's birth was too important to take "novelty" into consideration. Novelty to me is a healthy woman having unnecessary elective surgery.

Quote:
Complications of cesarean birth are still the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age, and cesareans also increase the chances of neonatal death significantly.
Just felt the need to repeat this... since so many people seem to think that cesareans are a good way out of birthing. (I had one w/ my first because my bp wasa bit high and the OB said "you should have a cesarean because it will hurt less")
 
#33 ·
My first baby was UC and our 2nd one due in October will be as well. Our first baby wasn't our original intent to be a home birth however. We were lied to, coerced, threatened and finally ignored and dropped (on our due date) by the OB/GYN we chose based on their "good" reviews. As an educated adult I did the research, read the same medical journals and research papers the doctors did and came to a conclusion that medical intervention on a healthy woman, who has a healthy pregnancy was hundreds of times more risky then a UC on the side of the road, let alone at a home prepared for birth with or without a midwife.

I was disappointed that there wasn't any representation in either the Post article or the discussion from the fathers point of view. Sure we're there to support you, love you and care for you during pregnancy, birth and afterwards but we're just as frightened and concerned as you are about the whole process from start to finish. While most women before and during labor are focused on the baby, we men are worried about about the both of you. I hope future discussions have more men included in them.

As a father, and a husband I hope these discussions continue to get national media attention. Our medical system is a business, and that business not often has the best interest of the patients in mind. It's of no surprise to me that a hospital which has to have on staff all those nurses, OBs, anesthesiologists, and of course the "equipment" needs to set policies in place to ensure they get the most money possible to pay for them. If hospitals had their way 100% of births would be c-sections, and that's a future I care not to ever see.
 
#34 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by michellyn View Post
After reading the discussion with Laura and Rothman, I wonder if this quote wasn't taken a bit out of context. In the discussion, Rothman clearly feels the hospital system doesn't work and that homebirth is superior (even while opposing UC). My read (after reading the discussion) is that she may have meant this to highlight that the system has problems. I'd be surprised if she meant that homebirth midwifery is "the system."
You're absolutely right. Mairi honestly feels that's what people should be asking - what is so wrong with our system that these women don't want to be a part of it? Because she absolutely believes there are many things wrong with it. She and I have been emailing and she's actually much more supportive of UC than the article would appear (or at least a woman's right to choose it). She told the Post when they first contacted her that if they were looking for an anti-UC midwife, she wouldn't really fit the bill. But they chose her anyway, and I thought she did a nice job in the discussion.

I'll respond to more comments soon. Must walk doggie.
Laura
 
#35 ·
I just lost my post......2nd time today!
 
#36 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryonyvaughn View Post
Well if you have another birth and the baby comes too fast for attendance, depending on your intended birthplace you'll be in your car on the road or in your home.

I have a couple friends who've had car births. The one whose water broke in the car was never able to get the smell out of the carpet/padding, ventilation system. They ended up trading it in. My precipitous labors were all at home. I vote for home.


~BV
You're absolutely right--if we'd planned on a hospital birth, this would have been a car birth (a fact I've tried to remind DH of). I sure hope I can convince him otherwise if we have another.
 
#37 ·
i was reading a bit, and i did get an answer to my question as to "why women 'need' to be monitored."

the MW here mentions that MWs act as "life guards" in this situation, and that when she gave birth, she wasn't capable of being her own "life guard" and she didn't want her husband to have to be her "life guard."

so, this is interesting to me.

when i think of a life guard, i have two images in my mind:

1. professional life guards on the beaches in places such as Australia where the training and competition to be a life guard is intense, where you have risks such as sharks and other majorly dangerous sea creatures to deal with, and most of them have EMT or higher levels of training; and

2. teenagers at the local pool who have taken a weekend certification class that included CPR and first aid training. they learned to use some basic equipment (life saving devices, certain holds to draw someone out of the water, etc) and they learned the basic 'rules' of the pool itself.

beyond this, for the most part, the places where i tend to swim most are unguarded places. I should assert that i know how to swim, and i would consider myself a very strong swimmer. I am used to open water swimming--generally in places with few truly dangerous animals living in those waters (ie, i do not swim in bayou's very often--in fact, never).

now here's the thing. for the most part, lifeguards are necessary when we're talking about people who don't know how to swim, people who don't have a clear understanding of the risks of say--jumping on top of someone while they're swimming (i had this happen recently at a pool, where the teenaged 'life guard' didn't do a darn thing, even though she saw the kid jump on me. i grabbbed him and pulled him up--he said "sorry" and i said "don't do that, you could kill someone!" the lifeguard did nothing--so, i was, effectively, the life guard).

now, here's the thing. as a strong swimmer who understands basic water safety, knows CPR, and is generally well aware of her surroundings and capable of caring for herself, i don't see myself as a person who needs a life guard to swim in my back yard pool (i don't have one, but if i did). There are few risks to me swimming by myself in my back yard pool because 1. i know how to swim; 2. i'm informed about how to swim; 3. i trust that i can swim; and 4. i am capable of being aware of my surroundings, even when swimming.

so, i have this feeling that i dn't really "need" a "lifeguard" when i swim.

And in most ways, i feel the same about birth.

my body already knows how to do it, but i'm also "learning to swim" by learning about birth--talking to you, reading, watching videos, etc. While i haven't actually "gotten into the pool"--i assume that i hvae the nature skill and talent to swim.

having taught swimming lessons, i find that the biggest barrier to swimming is not anything physical (ie, arms not long enough to stroke, not enough body fat to maintain bouyancy, etc), but rather abject fear. people fear the water.

i never feared the water, honestly. i like the water. i want to be in the water. you can't keep me out of the water! LOL as a kid, i may not have had the awareness to understand the complexities of swimming--which is why i was told to never swim without an adult present. At 16, i was given permission to swim in open waters alone because it was understood or believed that i had the capacity to take care of myself while in the water. I also worked as a 'life guard' that summer at our neighborhood swimming hole (and yes, it was a paid position). it was a small lake.

so, here's the deal.

i'm smart. i'm unafraid. i'm educated. i'm healthy.

i'm not in a high risk situation (ie, no snakes on my homebirth such that i'd need a life guard to keep me safe from them).

i can birth.

why do i need a life guard?

i'm not seeking one. i don't need one (i can take care of myself--or i am my own life guard). i don't want my hsuband to be one.

just one of those perspective things, i guess.
 
#38 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by michellyn View Post
You're absolutely right--if we'd planned on a hospital birth, this would have been a car birth (a fact I've tried to remind DH of). I sure hope I can convince him otherwise if we have another.
If you want some help convincing him I suggest you bring along some medical articles that explain the truth about UC, c-sections and hospital interventions. Men typically won't be won over going the emotional route because to be honest we're not wired that way. Let him read the cold hard facts, and he'll come to understand that letting nature go through it's normal course is best. If he's still leaning towards a hospital or midwife you can suggest having a midwife/duela present before or after the birth.
 
#39 ·
I do not go outside the system because it is broken. I go outside the system BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED IT - IT IS USELESS TO ME!


Come on now - I'm not the only one - right?!

This is a fundamental thing that people miss.

I don't plan to homeschool because public school sucks. I plan to homeschool, because *I want to teach my own kids.*

I don't wear my baby because strollers are evil. I wear my baby, because I want to wear my baby.

I don't plan to UC because midwives/OBs/hospitals/birth centers suck. I plan to UC, because *I want to birth my baby alone or with my immediate family.*

When we allow people to reduce our choice to simply opposing another choice, then we allow them to invalidate the intrinsic value of our choice.
 
#41 ·
bluefish:

i do agree with you about wanting to do this, not doing it because the system is flawed.

UC just makes perfect sense to me. it just does. i can't even explain it logically--but, if people want me to give them a "logical reason why i would prefer UC over a MW or hospital" then i can provide them with that information. But, the real reason, for me, is spiritual-mental-emotional, not 'Logical.'

and i don't think it has to be logicial. nor does it have to be about fear/risk management, nor does it have to be about broken systems. it can simply be about what we want, what is right for us as individuals.

that's how it is for me.
 
#42 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bluefish View Post
I do not go outside the system because it is broken. I go outside the system BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED IT - IT IS USELESS TO ME!


Come on now - I'm not the only one - right?!

This is a fundamental thing that people miss.

I don't plan to homeschool because public school sucks. I plan to homeschool, because *I want to teach my own kids.*

I don't wear my baby because strollers are evil. I wear my baby, because I want to wear my baby.

I don't plan to UC because midwives/OBs/hospitals/birth centers suck. I plan to UC, because *I want to birth my baby alone or with my immediate family.*

When we allow people to reduce our choice to simply opposing another choice, then we allow them to invalidate the intrinsic value of our choice.
This is what it all comes down to I think. I have read the blogs this morning and the followup comments on the WP site and there is so much anger and so many personal attacks, simply because we make choices based on informed, intelligent research and decisions, not pseudo science and they think we are nut jobs for doing it.

I am not indicting anyone for their choices, I am simply making a stand, based on informed decisionmaking, for what is right for my family, from UP/UC to babywearing, to bedsharing, to Extended BFing, unschooling, etc. FOR MY FAMILY, not yours.

There was a comment on the WP site that I quoted on my blog, "All truth passes through 3 stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident."

How truer of a situation is UC for that statement!?
 
#43 ·
want to add this from a particularly hostile blogger, it is actually one of her other commentors,

"You may claim to be making an "informed choice," but without any real evidence, your choice is not truly informed but is based on a combination of anecdotal stories of good outcomes and a willingness to play "beat the odds.""

Did you make your decisions based on anecdotal stories and risky personal tendencies?

I know I surely did not.
 
#44 ·
For me, while it was partially because the system is broken that I chose to UC... it came down to weighing the options. I did not decide to UC without researching BOTH uc/hospital birth/and even midwife assisted although it wasnt really an option for me. I didnt just say "hey, thats for me" or "my goddess will protect me" etc and decide to UC. Just like I didn't say "hey my doctor knows more than me and therefor i have to blindly listen" and decide to have a hospital birth. In that same vein, I did not choose to homeschool my son without first weighing both the public school and homeschool options, nor did I choose to wear my DD without analyzing carriers and strollers, and choosing the one that was best for MY family. ya know? Maybe I'm more analytical than most, but I see negatives and positives to just about every choice, and the balance, for me, is choosing the one that weighs most in my favor.

NOW, that being said... if hospitals were like luxury hotels with complimentary GOOD food during labor, a jacuzzi tub in every private birthing/laboring/postpartum suite, a closet full of natural birth assistance tools (birth ball, sling, massage packs, etc), a complimentary pro-natural birth doula available but not required, soft music, soft lighting, and a fully supportive non-interventive staff of OBs/Midwives/Nurses who understand that you are paying THEIR salaries, and treat you like a respected and cherished guest... along with a bed 2-3 times the size of the current hospital beds, a sleeper couch, and toys for the much welcomed elder siblings (as well as a playroom and friendly childcare provider for those who's children wish not to be present).... well then I would become a hospital birther.
 
#45 ·
Did you make your decisions based on anecdotal stories and risky personal tendencies?

admittedly, it was an anecdotal story that first brought me to consider UC--that of Jeanine Parvati Baker in her book Prenatal Yoga. when i first read it, i thought it sounded "extreme" but there was something in my soul that really was struck by it. And after 30 minutes of discussion about it, my husband and i agreed that it was "right."

The thing is, logical evidence isn't the only thing that one uses to determine what is "right and appropriate." if that were true, i wouldn't be the sort of vegetarian that i am. I am vegetarian because of m soul-spirit--not because of my head-intellect and the evidence that supports or decries vegetarianism.

but, truth be told, if there wasn't an intellectual reason to be veg in a healthy way, or to UC in a healthy way--then i wouldn't do it. For me, the process is usually "backwards" like this.

with vegetarianism, i long held the idea that i wanted to be veg (since i was about 10-11). my parents told me veggies couldn't be healthy (not enough nutrients, etc). I believed them for years. then, i really, really felt drawn to being veg. So, i researched being veg and learned how to be a healthy veg. I went veg, and 8 yrs later i'm still veg. I'm healthy as can be.

the same was true of this. i heard about UC in an anecdotal story. then, i learned about UC and birth in general through the various materials available. i realized how safe and healthy UC could be, and my decision was solidified. it just makes sense. so, i'm going to do it.


and as i've always said about being veg and UC, if i ever feel that it's not the right way for me to go--then i'll go another way. no big deal.

the second issue that the hostile blogger brought up was--risky personal tendencies.

in regards to me, this is just laughable. i am a very cautious person who takes her health--physical and spiritual--very, very seriously. i do not engage in risky behaviors--i'm even a 31 yr old defensive driver who commonly drives at or below the speed limit! LOL

when i go rock climbing, i check and double check everything. i've never used drugs, gotten drunk, or had casual sex. i just don't do things that are all that risky!

and, when i do things that are risky (as life has inherent risk), i check, double check, and triple check before i move forward. And if, at any point, i don't feel safe or i don't feel that i'm willing to take the risk (whatever that is), then i stop. i don't go forward with it.

i am incredibly cautious and conscientious. that's just my way. most of my friends--many of whom will likely hospital birth--take much greater risks than i do in a variety of ways. i'm very, very conservative compared to them.

they consider me crazy and risky--but much of what they do is much riskier than planned UC.
 
#46 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl View Post
The funny thing is, I'm willing to bet the average UCer knows as much about normal birth, if not a great deal more, than the average OB or L&D nurse.
Laura, I enjoyed your whole post. But had to pull this out - my med student friend, who's applying to OB-gyn residency programs now, told me that exact thing. I also know more about normal and most medical birth than she does . . . I was complaining about the standard charts used for progress, and even as she was saying, "Well, if anyone falls off the chart it's the standard of care to recommend pitocin," I pointed out a few things (including the natural alignment plateau, and the faulty origin of those charts) - and she replied, very honestly, "Well, I don't know where those charts came from, we're just supposed to use them. I don't have time to question and research everything I'm taught in med school, I just have to learn it and move on." Yes, and this is the kind of doctor who will be taking care of women in labor! Brilliant!
 
#47 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenlaana View Post
well then I would become a hospital birther.
I can understand someone feeling that way, but that would not be enough for me to become a hospital birther. The whole idea of making birth into a planned event where I have to determine when I'm in labor and go somewhere or alert somebody does not work for me - and Lord knows I've tried it that way! I can't say for sure, because I've yet to give nature a fair shake - but I truly believe what I need is to stay home, stay calm - not get all caught up in "Am I in labor yet?" "When do I call X, Y, Z person?, and birth when my body and baby are ready.

I did not base my choice on anecdotal stories - and goodness knows I'm not a risk taker! But I always instinctively knew that I did not want to birth the traditional way - it does not appeal to me at all. Even the midwifery tradition of women supported birth does not appeal to me. What the anecdotal stories did was show me that I wasn't alone in my feelings, and that what I instinctively wanted was an option.

There are many reasons women UC, but for me it is about the fact that I value the intrinsic value of birthing unattended. UC stands on its own as a valid choice for birth - it doesn't need to be compared to or measured against other birth options. My choice of UC does not mean a rejection and criticism of all other options.
 
#48 ·
Quote:
"But a woman having a baby is not in a position to be monitoring herself."
This comment is irksome because it belies true ignorance of what a UC is actually like. Many women, when attended during birth, are very suggestible. That may create the perception, to a birth attendant, that women are incapable of monitoring themselves during birth.

However, one of the most fascinating things to me about unassisted birth is how very present, in control, and observant an unassisted laboring mother really is. It is my personal opinion that a woman who knowingly undertakes an unassisted birth (or perhaps unknowingly, but I think fear becomes a strong inhibitor in unexpected UCs for most women) is in the very best position to monitor herself and the baby during birth. She is most aware, more aware than a midwife could possibly be, of her own status and the baby's.

I also liked the poster who pointed out "women are attempting to ______ without medical assistance." My big one is poop. Say you have a big poop and are mildly constipated. Now you know you can't poop this out on your own - lots of things could go wrong. You could die if your intestines twist and you don't get to the hospital. So we'll hook you up to some monitors, check the progress of the poop, and let you know how you're doing. If things don't go according to average pooping, then we may need to go after this one surgically. When really, all the poopee needs is some dark, quiet alone time in the bathroom with a soothing drink and something good to read. Yes, that poop may hurt. But it'll probably come out easier, and with fewer complications, without sixteen professionals examining it and criticizing the poopee's lack of progress. This is not to say that giving birth is just as safe as pooping, just that the idea that medical intervention or attendance is absolutely essential to avoid catastrophe in many cases is overstated. And that pooping for a critical audience would be much more difficult than just doing it on your own.
 
#50 ·
Well if people won't think my reasons for UC are "logical", then maybe these reasons are acceptable enough.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/65090.php

Doesn't anybody read newspapers or watch the news on TV anymore? The "studies" are there! What is so crazy about being responsible for YOUR body and YOUR baby? I didn't need help having sex. I didn't need help growing a fetus; making two ears, a brain, and two eyes. So I sure as h*** don't need help getting the baby out!! That is the easy part!

Funny how people will automatically accept statistics from an unknown source about how more babies die at home than in hospitals, but won't take the personal experience of a Mother as any indication of how dangerous homebirth is. The three Mothers in the article had live babies? You mean, the babies survived? *gasp* In third world countries that are so overcrowded there is not enough food to go around, women aren't having their babies in hospitals. Obviously birth can't be that dangerous! People are reproducing!

Reading the comments section in any UC article is a grim reminder of the type of brainwashed people who inhabit our earth.
 
#51 ·
Romana9+2 said:
"This comment is irksome because it belies true ignorance of what a UC is actually like. Many women, when attended during birth, are very suggestible. That may create the perception, to a birth attendant, that women are incapable of monitoring themselves during birth."


This reminds me of when I told my Grandma, who had NINE children naturally without intervention, that I was planning a UC. She told me I was ridiculous because a woman can't catch her own baby! She went on to ask me how I was going to do it, because I wouldn't be able to reach "down there." That attempt ended with a transfer for me. (long labor, posterior baby)

The second time I told her I was planning a UC again, she smiled and nodded. When I actually had my UC, I called her and told her the news, and she laughed and said that she didn't think I could do it because she thought the baby was too big!!

The insanity!!
 
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