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Multiplication Tables - Gone?

7K views 117 replies 26 participants last post by  Meg Murry. 
#1 ·
DD just finished grade 3, and they learned multiplication... but they didn't memorize the "times tables" the way they did when I was in school.

Is this a thing of the past? I just can't fathom that this won't be a problem in the future... Are we really creating a generation of people who will have to sit and think and count on their fingers to figure out that 6 x 7 = 42? Or, I guess they'll use the calculator on their phone...
:

I'm thinking of making some flashcards. Am I out of touch?
 
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#52 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
You don't need to memorize your times tables. You can figure it out.
:
It's a heck of a lot more efficient to just remember. I know 12x12 = 144. It takes me a second. If I had to add 12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12+12 = 144 it would sure take a lot longer.

I studied math in college, I do math for a living... if I didn't know basic multiplicative facts my courses & job would be a whole lot harder. I'm not saying it is for everyone - ok maybe some people can't memorize - but you should at least give all students the opportunity to learn. I can't believe some of the math curricula my teacher-friends are required to use. It's really sad.

MTA: I was actually responding more to correct what I thought was a misunderstanding earlier in this thread - which was that I didn't think this comment "I used to teach accounting at a technical college and I was horrified at the vast number of students who could not calculate percentages at all, could not add two 2-digit numbers without whipping out a calculator, didn't know what a numerator/denominator was, etc." meant that the poster expected her students to be able to add 2-digit numbers in their head, but rather add them without a calculator (using paper/pen).
 
#53 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
You don't need to memorize your times tables. You can figure it out.
:
The point is not that you can't figure it out, the point is that math is about finding the most efficient solution to any problem. Multiplication is a more efficient way of solving the problem. If we are to talk concepts vs. rote memory - well here is a concept, what is faster 9 x 7 or 9+9+9+9+9+9+9?

From mathematical point of view, no problem that involves multiplication of low numbers, should require a longer route of going back to addition.

The minute you reverse to addition, you are not doing what mathematics is all about - you are not looking for the best possible solution, and as a math teacher (that I am), I want my kids to always see their options, and be able to find that best solution. Without math facts - you have only one way of solving the problem, why would you want to limit a kid with only one solution vs. providing him/her with two?

Last time I took a math course was in high school (and last time I took a rigorous math course was when I was 16). I was able to pass teacher's licensure test in MA without taking one single math course through college, and breathed through it. I'm not sure why you are defending limiting American education to lower standards... They are low as it is...
 
#54 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
Last time I took a math course was in high school (and last time I took a rigorous math course was when I was 16). I was able to pass teacher's licensure test in MA without taking one single math course through college, and breathed through it. I'm not sure why you are defending limiting American education to lower standards... They are low as it is...
I am not. I never said I was. I never implied I was. I have stated this more than once.

I am pointing out that not everyone can retain this information, and just because you don't have your multiplication tables memorized, does NOT mean you cannot do math.

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding that if a person does not have multiplication tables memorized they cannot figure out how many paper plates to buy or get close to what 30% of 27 is.

Not knowing multiplication tables does not equal an inability to do math. It might take me longer than you, but I can still get there, without a calculator.

And just for the record.. I would not do 9+9+9+9+9+9+9 to figure out 9x7. I know 9x5 is 45 so I would do 45+9+9 to get to 63. I do know SOME of them off the top of my head. But I did not retain most of this information.

Also, as I said, my daughter was never taught her multiplication tables but she is in advanced math. Apparently she figured out tricks on her own.

Like for her 9's. Say 9X8. You take one away from the 8 to get 7. 7+2 = 9 therefor the answer is 72.

9X6. 6-1 =5 5+4=9 the answer is 54 This only works up to 10 however. But that she figured this out on her own impressed the hell out of me.
 
#55 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by crayolaab View Post
You don't need to use mental math to add without a calculator - you just need paper & pencil, and to know your times tables up through 9x9

True enough, but my point was that by 2nd grade math, children in Singapore, Japan, and elsewhere are expected to be able to do 2 digit addition and subtraction mentally (and in subsequent grades add or subtract a 2 digit number to any other number). The algorithms and tricks aren't difficult to learn, and the skill is a handy one.
 
#56 ·
I was a third grade theacher for five years, and I have worked for years in elementary school.

Let me tell you that children can take up to one to three years to memorize the times tables, but UNTIL THEY DO, they cannot learn any more arithmetic. All of the arithmetic after the times tables is based on the times tables.

Think of it:

geometry
formulas
ratios
division
measurement
transferring to other number bases
fractions
percentages
decimals
exponents
fulcrums
algebraic statements

I made it fun for all of my students, but they left my class knowing all of their times tables. There are fun ways to teach the times tables, but they have to be learned.

The twos, the fives, the sixes and nines all have a fun component.

I am always sad when I sub in a sixth grade math class and no one can remember their times tables. The last one everyone seems to learn is 11x12=132.

It is easy. For all two digit numbers times eleven, take the number being multiplied by eleven:

12

spread it out

1 - 2

add the two numbers

1 + 2 = 3

put the sum of two numbers that are multiplied by eleven between the two numbers, and you have your product.

1 3 2, 132!

Try multiplying 53x11

5 - 3

5 + 3 = 8

11x53=583!

11x35=385!

I solved it! It is fun.

For numbers time eleven as, say, 99?,

11x99=?

9 + 9 = 18

drop the 8 in the middle of the 9 - 9 and "carry" the one to the 9 in the hundreds column and add the one to nine.

1+
9 - 8 - 9

11x99=1,089

Works every time.
 
#57 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
I was a tahird grade theacher for five years, and I have worked for years in elementary school.

Let me tell you that children can take up to one to three years to memorize the times tables, but UNTIL THEY DO, they cannot learn any more arithmetic. All of the arithmetic after the times tables is based on the times tables.

Think of it:

division
measurement
transferring to other number bases
percentages
decimals
exponents
fulcrums
algebraic statements

I made it fun for all of my students, but they left my class knowing all of their times tables. There are fun ways to teach the times tables, but they have to be learned.

I am always sad when I sub in a sixth grade math class and no one can remember their times tables. The last one everyone seems to learn is 11x12=132.

It is easy. For all double digits times eleven, take the number being multiplied by eleven:

12

spread it out

1 - 2

add the two numbers

1 + 2 = 3

put the sum of two numbers that are multiplied by eleven between the two numbers, and you have your product.

1 3 2, 132!

Try multiplying 53x11

5 - 3

5 + 3 = 8

11x53=583!

11x35=385!

I solved it! It is fun.
so 11X134

would be

1+3+4=8 so the answer is 1,348? nope. oh you put it in the middle.. how would that work with more than 2 numbers? or does it?

gotta go to the bank. (btw..they did not teach tricks when I was in school. It was just memorize, memorize, memorize. Then if you didn't.. you had to figure a way around it.)
 
#58 ·
NO! I said that it only works with any two digit number times eleven.

as for 11x134 =

I suppose you can line it up this way and add:

0134
134
1474

I am not sure how that will look turn out once I click on the post button....


I will correct the confusing language, sorry...
 
#59 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I

I am pointing out that not everyone can retain this information, and just because you don't have your multiplication tables memorized, does NOT mean you cannot do math.
I have agreed in many posts that learning disabilities is a real thing, however, the OP was talking about general lack of instruction on rote memorization of multiplication tables. Majority of kids CAN memorize them. Period. If they don't - it's because of poor instruction.

It comes down to this:

Can you do math without memorizing the tables? YES

Will someone be performing at higher level (finding better solutions, and working through problems faster) than you if they know their tables? YES

Do we need a curriculum that skips multiplication tables because "they are not needed to do math?" NO
 
#60 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
I have agreed in many posts that learning disabilities is a real thing, however, the OP was talking about general lack of instruction on rote memorization of multiplication tables. Majority of kids CAN memorize them. Period. If they don't - it's because of poor instruction.

It comes down to this:

Can you do math without memorizing the tables? YES

Will someone be performing at higher level (finding better solutions, and working through problems faster) than you if they know their tables? YES

Do we need a curriculum that skips multiplication tables because "they are not needed to do math?" NO
I do not have a learning disability.

I don't believe that the reason certain kids don't retain this information is due to poor instruction. I believe it is the individual learning style of the student.

Yes schools should teach the multiplication tables...
No schools should NOT hold back students who fail to memorize them but can still do the math problem.
 
#61 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Dude.. that is because I was only stating the fact that most people don't RETAIN THIS INFORMATION. No argument. A simple statement of fact.

And just because you don't know the multiplication tables off the top of your head, does not mean you cannot do simple math without a calculator. I do it all the time.

BTW, it would make more sense, to count by 5's nine times then try to add 9, 5 times.
"Most people" based on how many, Tina? Seriously.
 
#63 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
I was a third grade theacher for five years, and I have worked for years in elementary school.

Let me tell you that children can take up to one to three years to memorize the times tables, but UNTIL THEY DO, they cannot learn any more arithmetic. All of the arithmetic after the times tables is based on the times tables.

Think of it:

division
measurement
transferring to other number bases
fractions
percentages
decimals
exponents
fulcrums
algebraic statements

I made it fun for all of my students, but they left my class knowing all of their times tables. There are fun ways to teach the times tables, but they have to be learned.

The twos, the fives, the sixes and nines all have a fun component.

I am always sad when I sub in a sixth grade math class and no one can remember their times tables. The last one everyone seems to learn is 11x12=132.

It is easy. For all two digit numbers times eleven, take the number being multiplied by eleven:

12

spread it out

1 - 2

add the two numbers

1 + 2 = 3

put the sum of two numbers that are multiplied by eleven between the two numbers, and you have your product.

1 3 2, 132!

Try multiplying 53x11

5 - 3

5 + 3 = 8

11x53=583!

11x35=385!

I solved it! It is fun.

For numbers time eleven as, say, 99?,

11x99=?

9 + 9 = 18

drop the 8 in the middle of the 9 - 9 and "carry" the one to the 9 in the hundreds column and add the one to nine.

1+
9 - 8 - 9

11x99=1,089

Works every time.
COOL!
 
#64 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
"Most people" based on how many, Tina? Seriously.
Most people I know. Do you really want me to count everyone I know? My DH is the only one I know that actually knows and retains his multiplication tables. He can also tell you the color of the power button on my aunt's computer. Yet he can't remember what he had or breakfast. He can't remember his phone when he leaves. He looses things constantly. He can't remember the kid's birthdays.

Maybe I will do a poll in TOA. It would be interesting to know how many people can remember 100% of the multiplication table.
 
#66 ·
The poll isn't set up to answer the question of how many people who learned their tables actually retain the information. A more useful poll would have asked:

- learned all and retained all
- learned all and retained some or none
- didn't learn all

A cross-cultural analysis would be even more interesting.
 
#67 ·
Quote:
I taught 6th grade last year and I had several students who didn't know all of their times tables. I would assign them sometimes for misbehavior. I figure it gives them something they don't like to do, but also teaches them something, hopefully.
This method was popular when I was in third/fourth grade.

My own son, whom I homeschooled, learned his times tables all in the space of three weeks. Division also.
 
#68 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees View Post
The poll isn't set up to answer the question of how many people who learned their tables actually retain the information. A more useful poll would have asked:

- learned all and retained all
- learned all and retained some or none
- didn't learn all

A cross-cultural analysis would be even more interesting.

Yes.. I know see I should have differentiated between didn't learn and don't remember. But I think it is interesting that it is 60/40 ish out o 26 people.
 
#69 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I do not have a learning disability.

I don't believe that the reason certain kids don't retain this information is due to poor instruction. I believe it is the individual learning style of the student.

Yes schools should teach the multiplication tables...
No schools should NOT hold back students who fail to memorize them but can still do the math problem.
I disagree. Mainly for two resons: the lack of math facts is present here, while it wasn't back home, and classroom instruction was way different, especially in the math class.

Learning style refers to the way we retain information the best, not to whether or not we are capable of retaining it.

I don't believe American kids have some kind of memory problem, and I have seen drastic difference in instruction in American education, for some reason it shuns away from any kind rote memorization (be it math classroom or language arts, also explains why they don't know what a verb is by 6th grade, no one has ever asked them to memorize any kind of rules with explanation or without!).
 
#70 ·
I feel there is nothing wrong with memorization.

It "exercises" the brain, and as you learn something, the meaning will click on when you learn the times tables and insert the fun parts and shortcuts which reinforce and help the memory.
 
#72 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
and I have seen drastic difference in instruction in American education, for some reason it shuns away from any kind rote memorization (be it math classroom or language arts, also explains why they don't know what a verb is by 6th grade, no one has ever asked them to memorize any kind of rules with explanation or without!).
I can shed some light on why this is.

Memorization and other forms of rote learning were SERIOUSLY badmouthed by my education "professors" when I got my certification. Really, they reacted to the idea that children should be made to memorize stuff about as well as we on MDC would react to the idea that we should all raise our children as formula-eating White Supremacists.

Really, it wasn't a case of presenting both sides of the issue -- it was out-and-out derided as "boring" and "old-fashioned" and associated with things like Sister Mary Knucklebreaker or Mr. Gradgrind types of authoriarian, punitive teachers. It wasn't fun. It didn't help their sense of self-esteem.

What that did was to set up a generation of professors teaching teachers teaching students not to memorize, and a generation of other teachers who'd never learned how to do fundamental math without a calculator being unable to teach any cool memorization tricks because they themselves had never learned them.

And that brings us to today.

This history lesson has been brought to you by...
:
 
#73 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
At least as of this writing, 68% of your respondents remember all of it. That's not even counting the ones who remember most of it but not all.

Far as I can tell, that's a clear majority.
I disagree with you. That is still more than 30% that don't remember them. Hell I know part of them. But part of them is not what we are looking for. We are looking for people who remember ALL of them. Because as was previously posted.. everyone can learn and retain all of this information unless they have a learning disability.
 
#74 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
I can shed some light on why this is.

Memorization and other forms of rote learning were SERIOUSLY badmouthed by my education "professors" when I got my certification. Really, they reacted to the idea that children should be made to memorize stuff about as well as we on MDC would react to the idea that we should all raise our children as formula-eating White Supremacists.

Really, it wasn't a case of presenting both sides of the issue -- it was out-and-out derided as "boring" and "old-fashioned" and associated with things like Sister Mary Knucklebreaker or Mr. Gradgrind types of authoriarian, punitive teachers. It wasn't fun. It didn't help their sense of self-esteem.

What that did was to set up a generation of professors teaching teachers teaching students not to memorize, and a generation of other teachers who'd never learned how to do fundamental math without a calculator being unable to teach any cool memorization tricks because they themselves had never learned them.

And that brings us to today.

This history lesson has been brought to you by...
:
That might explain people like my 14 year old DD who is in advanced math, a TAG student.. but was never taught the multiplication tables.

However it does not explain what I am talking about. People like me who WERE taught this information but forgot it once the test was over.
 
#75 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I disagree with you. That is still more than 30% that don't remember them. Hell I know part of them. But part of them is not what we are looking for. We are looking for people who remember ALL of them. Because as was previously posted.. everyone can learn and retain all of this information unless they have a learning disability.
Tina, a majority is anything above 50%. It is not an issue of "agreeing" or "disagreeing" with me. This is a fact.

If you have 50.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of any given thing, you have a majority of that thing. 68% is therefore a very clear majority.
 
#76 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniT View Post
That might explain people like my 14 year old DD who is in advanced math, a TAG student.. but was never taught the multiplication tables.

However it does not explain what I am talking about. People like me who WERE taught this information but forgot it once the test was over.
I can think of a number of different reasons in no particular order:

1. You have a learning disability
2. You were taught in a poor manner which did not capitalize on the natural ways we remember rote information
3. You didn't care and forgot it quickly because it was not important to you
4. You had social reasons why you blocked math
5. You had psychological reasons why you blocked math

There are other possibilities; these were the first I could think of.
 
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