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Am I the only one who spanks her dog but not her kid?

5K views 85 replies 53 participants last post by  aussiemum 
#1 ·
Since becoming a parent, I became a whole lot less patient with our two family dogs. And a lot less attentive too, which has been discussed on other threads.

I'm a lifetime animal freak and our dogs are part of our family. Sleep on our bed, act like one of the kids, the whole thing. But I noticed that since dd arrived, I'm so much more short tempered with them. Somewhere along the way I realized that when I'm especially mad there've been a couple of times that I've swatted their haunches.

Like yesterday one dog jumped up and got a sandwich I'd just made, carried it into the living room and ate it. I used to be able to leave my food on the coffee table at eye level while I left the room to go answer the phone, and when I came back they'd be sitting there staring at it and it would be untouched. Now they act up a lot more, I think as a reaction to the relative neglect since dd came.

Anyway I ran over to get the sandwich remains, scolded the dog and swatted him once on the haunches. More just because of my anger than because of any delusion that it taught the dog anything. Dd's nanny was there and I embarrassedly commented that I must be the only mother she knew who spanked her dog but didn't allow her kids to be spanked.

She laughed and said "yeah, and I also noticed that dd pretty much does what you ask her to and the dogs don't"


Another testimony to the effectiveness of spanking
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#28 ·
Wow yeah, let's condemn hitting people but advocate and share our dog-hitting stories!

Awesome!

Quote:
Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite:
Personal accountability is a wonderful thing. No one else chooses to hit your dog or chooses to stop hitting your dog but YOU.

I am not an advocate for physical force on ANY being, dog or child or adult or anyone who lives and breathes unless it is an unquestionable act of self defense.

In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.
 
#29 ·
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.
I am not trying to argue, I don't think hitting dogs is right, but I do feel communicating on their level is apropriate. Dogs like order and a chain of command MORE than they like food, seriously.
 
#31 ·
Hmmmm---I'm not sure where to go with this thread--let's just be mindful that this was posted in the GD forum. It sounds like the OP has lost her temper with the dogs and is looking for help with that issue. If you want to discuss dog training that really needs to happen in the Pets forum.
 
#33 ·
blessed, I went through the same thing with my dogs. I felt really bad about it, but their status definitely suffered when DS came along.

One of our dogs in particular wasn't that great with kids, and he was extremely noisy so it seemed like he was always waking the baby. I would just get DS to sleep and then the frenzied maniacal barking would start if someone had the bad sense to ring our doorbell (and our doorbell range a lot because ex-H had a business out of the home). Sigh.

I was able to curtail my bad behavior when DS started to become aware of my actions (or at least I perceived he did) because I was kind of embarrassed. But the dogs never regained their previous status, in terms of me feeling loving and affectionate toward them. I guess my heart coldly decided what its priorities were, whether I wanted it to or not.

Hope you're able to find a good middle ground, mama.
 
#34 ·
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Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I have no opinion on how folks train their dogs...but I loved reading about the monks at New Skete and their dog training program. It's got DVDs and everything....

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/puppies/dg.html
I don't know if it is still on, but they did have a show on Animal Planet that I loved to watch. They are very much in to making sure the dogs know who is the alpha in the pack. They also have dogs living all over their monastery, it looks like a pretty cool place!
 
#36 ·
Not to get too much into dog training, but I wanted to second all of SD's posts. I've also read that, in packs, it's the Beta Male who takes on babysitting duties with the pups. So, that's where you want your dog to be if you have kids, especially.

As for our dogs, we find that non-physical repremands are just as effective as physical ones (and we have spanked our dogs in the past, but are trying to avoid that now). A quick, firm NO and "the look" will usually get an immediate submissive "I'm sorry" pose from them.
 
#37 ·
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
I haven't observed many pack dogs smacking eachother's @sses lately either so....
No, but they do bite and make each other submit physically. It depends on the pack structure and the dogs.

Noone is saying to beat your dogs by any means. In fact, hurting them out of anger will make them lose respect for you-they don't want an unstable leader. But teaching them a lesson with tried methods that don't maim them (like the play bite Ceasar does) is a different issue.

How is any of this sharing and advocating dog hitting?
 
#38 ·
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Originally Posted by woobysma View Post
I've also read that, in packs, it's the Beta Male who takes on babysitting duties with the pups. So, that's where you want your dog to be if you have kids, especially.
Sorry to contribute to the off-topic part of this thread, but whoa! I would never want my dog thinking that she ranked above my kids in our family dynamic. She is the lowest man on the totem pole -- she's the beloved lowest man on the totem pole, but the lowest nonetheless.

If she thought she were second-in-command, wouldn't that mean she'd feel justified in "correcting" my kids' behavior, possibly through nips and the like? I would never want to encourage that.

We already have our 2yo give our dog commands and then give her a treat, have him fill her dog dish, we feed him before her, etc., specifically to send her the message that he ranks above her and that just because she's bigger than him does not mean that she has more power in the "pack."
 
#39 ·
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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
I am not talking about beating dogs or anything like that, and neither are you, but I just wanted to point out a pitfall when raising dogs.

DW and I have always been really great with kids, never really had much of a problem with child care, or dealing with challenges with kids.

Ok so then we got a dog. The _worst_ behaved dog to ever walk the planet. Nothing worked for this dog, NOTHING.

Then we read a site about dog training that gave us an "oh duh" moment when she was about 4-5 years old.

The goal of raising a child is COMPLETELY different from the goal of raising a dog. You want a child to grow into a decision making, independant, individual. You want a dog to become a subservient member of your pack, who looks to you or other Alpha members of the pack for every decision. You provide the food, leadership, and safety, and your dog provides support, protection, and obedience.

It seems almost cruel, untill you start actung like a true alpha dog/pack leader.
There is no rage, physical punnishments are instant, reactive, and are instantly forgotten. An alpha dog will not bite a disobedient subordinate over and over again until they stop the activity. They will give them a quick bite and then let them know, with afection that they are still welcome in the pack. The disobedient does not have to sulk, they are not confused, they just fall back in line.

Rage, screaming, and inconsistant behaver encourage the lesser members of the pack to start a struggle for dominance. In the wild, if the leader is behaving in such a way that his/her behavior is unpredictable, and inconsistant, it is the DUTY and the Instinct of each member to prove that they would be a better leader. Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".

Correction in an animal can be something physical that is uncomfortable, in my opinion, this is natural. It is what they expect, it is what they thrive on. Watch caesar millan (dog whisperer). He does a very non-aggressive, non-rage physical correction where he kind of strikes with the tips of his fingers to simulate a "warning bite" from a true alpha dog. Dogs communicate with physical roughness. Humans can communicate with words.

I think to try to use the same strategy for a dog and a child you will just end up with a confused "misbehaved" dog. (that was certainly the case for us) Once I started acting like an alpha dog, instead of a crazy person, the dog was calmer, better behaved, and overall much more fun to be around. The best news is that since the dog's instinct is to struggle for dominance in the absence of an Alpha... you can take control ANY time, no matter how old the dog or how long you have been doing what you have been doing.
The above is really excellent advice with a lot of insight. Dogs are not humans and can't reason like humans. To expect to GD a dog is, imo, unfair to the dog.

In my house, we do an underchin smack correction that our trainer uses. The goal is to provide discipline and make it instructive, never to hit in anger. It's when emotions, rather than the goal of teaching a lesson, are driving the hitting that I think it can cross a line. My DH struggles with this with the dogs and I often have to remind him that discipline (for dogs) should always be corrective feedback, not punishment.

We also recognize when bad behavior is our fault and we don't go around smacking our dogs 24/7. For instance, a gust of wind trapped our black lab in the bathroom for several hours while we were out and she shredded an entire roll of toilet paper. We figured, if we'd been in her 'paws' we'd probably have done the same thing and cleaned it up without a word. If we leave things out where the dogs can get to them, we count that as being our fault. Dogs are dogs and they know the rules, but can't be relied on to adhere to them 100%.

So, the lesson for the OP is most likely that you can't trust your pups like you used to. They'll give in to temptation. Do what you can to avoid these situations all together and work on ensuring you have a healthy pack structure with your pups.

And don't worry that you've done any irreparable harm to the dogs. Their psyches are just fine.

All that being said, I do think the fact that dogs can be 'spanked' and children aren't could raise some interesting parenting conundrums as we try to teach our children what is and isn't appropriate. It's something I'll have to think about myself.

V
 
#40 ·
Well, I certainly spank my dogs. I also spank the horses and the chickens (gently, but it helps them with their pecking order if I do). I actually don't "spank" the dogs as much as whack them on the nose. Though once my dog growled at my dc and I gave him a spanking.

Same thing as ShaggyDaddy said, they like to know where they are in the order. If they don't know, they challenge you. And then what? How is that kind? A dog challenges the order by biting, and would most likely start by biting a child. A dog that bites a child has to be euthanized. Doesn't sound like responsible dog ownership to me.

Anyway, I also call the dogs "bad" and "good", scold them, and put them outside when they're obnoxious. I don't do this to my dc, and I think that they can figure out the difference.
 
#41 ·
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Originally Posted by Violet2 View Post
We also recognize when bad behavior is our fault and we don't go around smacking our dogs 24/7. For instance, a gust of wind trapped our black lab in the bathroom for several hours while we were out and she shredded an entire roll of toilet paper. We figured, if we'd been in her 'paws' we'd probably have done the same thing and cleaned it up without a word. If we leave things out where the dogs can get to them, we count that as being our fault. Dogs are dogs and they know the rules, but can't be relied on to adhere to them 100%.
My dog has destroyed things while we were out, and then my dh always insists that he knows he did something wrong. Yeah, right.
 
#42 ·
I haven't used spanking or hitting with my dogs, except as where I described above in which I did it out of anger rather than as training.

If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.
 
#43 ·
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Originally Posted by blessed View Post
If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.
Yes, I have a dog like that too. He's part border collie, part Aussie, and he's "born to serve".

I also have a Queensland Heeler. He's much, much different. He's constantly testing his place in the hierarchy, just to be sure.
 
#44 ·
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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
had you already eaten part of the sandwich, or were you eating as you made it? If so, then this is typical pack behavior, A leader is done with the food, my turn. In either case, I think it would be important to start thinking more like an alpha on food matters. Assign them to eat, when you pour food, instruct them to eat it. If they always have food out, make it a point to take the bowl away during meal times, and replace them once the family is done eating. If they eat table scraps (which does not hurt alpha status in my opinion) make sure if they try to instigate table scraps with begging or stealing, the scraps stop for the night and they are not allowed to eat (even dog food) untill everyone else is done. These are pack behaviors that are important in setting up feeding rank. The last thing you want is some big dogs that feel like they should get to eat FIRST.

The most important action, the one you are struggling with is what to do when it happens. In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite). Take whatever portion of the food is left back to the kitchen. DO NOT decide that you just won't eat. It is important that you eat SOMETHING after this display so that the dog can understand that the alpha was not done eating, and that was the problem. After you are done eating your replacement snack/meal. Take the dogs to their food and tell them they can eat this. Walk away.

Of course sometimes we have no time for this, you can easily shorten it, just keep the alpha mentallity and you can't really go wrong, because the dogs do not have any desire to question a true alpha's decision.
I am really thinking recently of getting a dog in a few years after the kids are a bit older. Will you come train them for me


The thing really keeping us from getting one is we are worried I will not be able to be the dominant person, and the dogs will run ME
 
#45 ·
when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.
 
#46 ·
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Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.
May I ask what kind of dog you have?


Mine is a hell-raiser, I have had dogs in the past just like yours who did great like that. I don't "spank" my dog. I just use the leash correction and sometimes push on her nose downwards if she nips. But I have never had a dog like this who really does not respond at all to positive reinforcement training like they do at Petsmart. I could almost hear her laughing at the dude!
 
#47 ·
i haven't read the whole thread but i have four dogs and a seven month old. i get really angry at the dogs lately because they wake up my bad-sleeping baby A LOT!! i don't know what to do about it. sometimes i feel like i want to get physical with them. like you, they arne't getting the attention they used to get. i am realizing that how i treat my dogs will be a role model to my DD. so if i have that physical urge, i get myself away from them. unfortunately alot of times that means even less attention from me, but i don't know what else to do...i mean with four dogs it is hard to be able to correct them all! they are also all from abused situations and each of their stories made me cry, so i took them in...i am also trying to speak nicer to them..it's hard. so many hugs to you because i am so there with you!
 
#48 ·
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Originally Posted by snowmom11 View Post
Is this kind of response really helpful? It seems awfully snotty to me. She obviously realized that she had made a mistake.
It was a genuine question. I wasn't sure how to interpret the tone of the post and that's why I asked because I was wondering if she was making a commitment not to hit the dogs. Obviously from this thread many people who don't hit their children think it is fine to hit dogs.

One thing I'll add to the mix is one of the reasons why I think hitting children is a bad idea is that it models that hitting someone we love is an acceptable choice. I would be concerned if children see an adult hitting the dog that they would do the same. Especially with a dog that has a history of behavioral concerns this could be very risky.
 
#49 ·
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Originally Posted by blessed View Post
Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite: irritated with the implied judgment and defensive that more is being made of the situation than there really is.
I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.
 
#50 ·
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Originally Posted by Roar View Post
I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.
No one said anything about anyone needing to motivate me not to hit.

I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.

Don't let that bother you though. Please continue.
 
#51 ·
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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".

Sometimes this is probably what my kids think too!


Every night I threaten to turn my cats into fur muffs if they don't stop scratching everything in sight and trying to leap up onto my sleeping baby. My DH gets annoyed and says that I need to have more patience - but he spends all day with adults, and its not like the cat is trying to knead his boob while he nurses, so really, he has NO CLUE.
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