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Research-based evidence for traditional foods...  

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I am very scientific-minded, and I like to see the evidence behind claims. I know some others on here are of a similar mind-- there are lots of claims that are on the Weston Price website, but you are left wondering if this stuff is *really* true. So, I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread with actual research regarding traditional food topics. I plan to include links where you can go and see what the research actually says (good or bad!). Hopefully others will include any research they have done on their own and the info they have found. Just FYI-- I don't really think much of a link to a website where someone is just talking about the benefits of traditional foods (unless this website also has links to research-based info). Hopefully everyone will take this positively-- I really want to know that the energy, time, and money I am pooring into healthy eating is really going to pay off-- and is not just another "fad"-- ya know?

To start off, I am doing some research on soaking grains. I saw in another thread recently where someone questioned how people long ago would even know to soak their grains-- and was it really all that necessary?? (I have the same questions myself.) So I'll be doing some research and adding my findings as I go along. Join me if you like!

Soaking Grains:
1. Effect of Traditional Food Processing on Phytate Degradation in Wheat and Millets from the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry
post #2 of 17
I'm a sucker for studies. I LOVE to look them up. But, I've learned to relax a little too. Now I consider how long humans have eaten the food in question more important than what current studies say. Still, I love to read them. Most importantly, I don't care why traditional societies soaked flour or ate plenty of raw dairy or whether or not they were concerned with phytates or enzyme inhibitors; rather, the fact that they did evolve on these foods is what matters.

So here's some I've come across. I only have the articles right now and would have to dig up the studies. I'll have to post some more later.

In Support of Fermentation/Good Bacteria:
DNA of Good Bacteria Drives Intestinal Response to Infection

Palates/Vitamin A:
Maternal Vitamin A Intake and Cleft Palate Risk
Modern Western Diet and Increased Risk of Cleft Palate/Lip
post #3 of 17
bump!! what a great idea! i don't have one to contribute but i'm excited to read and learn....
post #4 of 17
I'm totally with you! To the point that I started collecting all of my reasearch onto one website. I'm not ready to post it publicly and allow google to find it but PM me if you want the link!
post #5 of 17
I don't have any links because I have the actual journals at home, but there have been many studies and articles recently regarding cholesterol, and the TF belief in eating high cholesterol foods has been very much vindicated, though still not widely accepted by the mainstream. It always takes them a while to catch up with their own research
post #6 of 17
lol, i told my complaining constipated 8 year old today "don't worry, by the time you're in college everyone will know that fat is the healthiest thing to eat."
post #7 of 17
Well, I think Dr. Weston A Price's book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is pretty much nothing but details regarding his multi-year long research of various cultures, the food they ate, and how it's prepared. I offer that as evidence.
post #8 of 17
thank you for this thread! totally subbing.

I want super objective information about the heart disease, heart issues stuff, stroke, stuff. in reading the SF literature, I don't get a lot of convincing reasoning behind the standard research, ie not a lot of proof of corporate conspiracies, etc. I need something more concrete, as there is a lot of heart disease in my family...
post #9 of 17
have you read Gary Taubes?

he's pretty much got all the good research
post #10 of 17
I just read an article by Gary Taubes in Mother Earth News that was really good. Lots of good info in there. It's also online. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Natur...th-Weight.aspx
post #11 of 17
I can't help but point to Gale Force's site Rebuild From Depression (and the forthcoming book) because she names the studies.
post #12 of 17
I would also caution against looking at journalistic reports of studies (and that includes the aforementioned Gary Taubes, as much as I admire him and loved his book, it is still 2nd hand info) and even study abstracts. You have to look at the data, and ideally have a clear idea of how appropriate the statistical tools used are to the data at hand. It is surprising but even in peer-reviewed journals, often studies are published with data that conflicts with conclusions. More often than not these are conclusions that support the theories du jour, so your more TF-leaning studies are likely to NEED impeccable data, statistical methodology and conclusions that are supported by the data. Taubes details one example of how the data didn't fit the conclusions in the massive Framingham study, but there are others. There is also sample size to look at, population, reality checks on the methodology...

...and you have to consider that the vast, vast majority of ALL nutritional studies are *epidemiological* in nature, which means that the study authors typically select for one variable and try to isolate a single correlational factor. Nutritional science is also HIGHLY reductionist and attempts more often than not to draw "nutrient X = condition Y" relationships, where the reality of the situation might be more like "nutrient X in combination with genetic base Q, environmental factors M, N, L and B, combined with nutrients T and V for females of reproductive age = a 50% greater risk of condition Y". Because that sort of thing just doesn't sell.

I used to be a total study junkie. Then I took classes on statistical methodology and research methods, and realized that the massive ethical constraints on ANY research involving humans means that you can virtually NEVER get anything stronger than a correlational result from any human studies, and that it's incredibly difficult to design a study that will produce accurate data that is also well-suited to any statistical analysis (ie, how important are the outliers? Do you look at the mean results or median? Is the data truly on a bell curve or are you just trying to cram it into one and use the conveniently handy tools?).

Also, many many studies are performed and the results never published, since studies are frequently funded by organizations with a vested interest in results that say certain things. Not to mention the vast numbers of studies with completely inconclusive findings.

So, my thinking is that studies are interesting and fun to read and analyze, they keep bright people employed and happy, but they don't do a whole hell of a lot to help us *really* understand what to eat. Human bodies are SO complex and nutrition is even more complex; there is this whole mess of environmental variables, human genetics and epigenetics that nobody pretends to understand, and the fact that science is reductionist by necessity... it all adds up to the unfortunate conclusion that it's probably not a good idea to put any faith in scientific studies as a basis for diet planning.

So what's left? Merely the simple but inarguable thought that foods that have been consumed for thousands of years without killing anyone are likely to be reasonably healthy for you too. This seems simple but there is the problem of history and its accuracy - the problem that when foods don't change over millenia nobody thinks to record their details, the problem of the vast variety of traditional food and the lack of knowledge about whether there are any smorgasbord effects from combining even traditional foods, the ongoing problems of soil health, the interaction of diet and lifestyle... PLUS you have to take into account your own unique set of variables, including your childhood, your culture, your own biology and psychology.

Just a brief example to illustrate some of the problems: Say there is a study that shows that eating small oily fish (like sardines) is highly beneficial to health. The sample population is drawn from three or four countries with high per-capita consumption of sardines; these countries have lower incidences of cardiovascular disease than several other non-sardine eating countries.

Ok, great, you say - gimme some sardines. But wait. Are the sardines tinned or fresh? How are they prepared? Are they salted at all? Breaded? Fried, grilled or marinated? Served with sour cream, or lemon juice? What about the other 145 or so countries in the world? Do they eat sardines? What are THEIR cardiovascular disease stats? Why did the study authors choose THESE countries, and not others? What else do the people in these countries eat along with their sardines? What about the fact that sardine fisheries are seasonal? Does that matter? Who funded the study? Was it a fishery lobby group? An environmental group trying to shut down salmon farming or wild salmon fisheries? Who reviewed the study? Did the reviewers ask any of these questions? Does the data actually fit the conclusions? Can you tell?

Sorry, this is a bit of a rambling post. My point is, I think logic, self-knowledge and common sense are better tools for deciding what to eat than scientific studies.
post #13 of 17
This is that awesome NY Times article that reviews some studies - not research, but it was a great, succint way to introduce TF to mainstream family members...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

And here's Nina Plancks summary of the Womens Health Initiative study, which gives the citation at the bottom:
http://www.ninaplanck.com/index.php?...838699455bc99d


hope that helps!
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by spughy View Post
My point is, I think logic, self-knowledge and common sense are better tools for deciding what to eat than scientific studies.
ITA! I'd add instinct to that list, if one can obtain enough distance from the demented cravings brought on by modern food processing and additives, to have a clear line of sight on those instincts. And common sense isn't so common anymore, it's been co-opted by reductionist, PC nutritionism. (i.e. "Everyone knows" saturated fat is bad for you.)
post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spughy View Post
I would also caution against looking at journalistic reports of studies (and that includes the aforementioned Gary Taubes, as much as I admire him and loved his book, it is still 2nd hand info) and even study abstracts. You have to look at the data, and ideally have a clear idea of how appropriate the statistical tools used are to the data at hand. It is surprising but even in peer-reviewed journals, often studies are published with data that conflicts with conclusions. More often than not these are conclusions that support the theories du jour, so your more TF-leaning studies are likely to NEED impeccable data, statistical methodology and conclusions that are supported by the data. Taubes details one example of how the data didn't fit the conclusions in the massive Framingham study, but there are others. There is also sample size to look at, population, reality checks on the methodology...

...and you have to consider that the vast, vast majority of ALL nutritional studies are *epidemiological* in nature, which means that the study authors typically select for one variable and try to isolate a single correlational factor. Nutritional science is also HIGHLY reductionist and attempts more often than not to draw "nutrient X = condition Y" relationships, where the reality of the situation might be more like "nutrient X in combination with genetic base Q, environmental factors M, N, L and B, combined with nutrients T and V for females of reproductive age = a 50% greater risk of condition Y". Because that sort of thing just doesn't sell.

I used to be a total study junkie. Then I took classes on statistical methodology and research methods, and realized that the massive ethical constraints on ANY research involving humans means that you can virtually NEVER get anything stronger than a correlational result from any human studies, and that it's incredibly difficult to design a study that will produce accurate data that is also well-suited to any statistical analysis (ie, how important are the outliers? Do you look at the mean results or median? Is the data truly on a bell curve or are you just trying to cram it into one and use the conveniently handy tools?).

Also, many many studies are performed and the results never published, since studies are frequently funded by organizations with a vested interest in results that say certain things. Not to mention the vast numbers of studies with completely inconclusive findings.

So, my thinking is that studies are interesting and fun to read and analyze, they keep bright people employed and happy, but they don't do a whole hell of a lot to help us *really* understand what to eat. Human bodies are SO complex and nutrition is even more complex; there is this whole mess of environmental variables, human genetics and epigenetics that nobody pretends to understand, and the fact that science is reductionist by necessity... it all adds up to the unfortunate conclusion that it's probably not a good idea to put any faith in scientific studies as a basis for diet planning.

So what's left? Merely the simple but inarguable thought that foods that have been consumed for thousands of years without killing anyone are likely to be reasonably healthy for you too. This seems simple but there is the problem of history and its accuracy - the problem that when foods don't change over millenia nobody thinks to record their details, the problem of the vast variety of traditional food and the lack of knowledge about whether there are any smorgasbord effects from combining even traditional foods, the ongoing problems of soil health, the interaction of diet and lifestyle... PLUS you have to take into account your own unique set of variables, including your childhood, your culture, your own biology and psychology.

Just a brief example to illustrate some of the problems: Say there is a study that shows that eating small oily fish (like sardines) is highly beneficial to health. The sample population is drawn from three or four countries with high per-capita consumption of sardines; these countries have lower incidences of cardiovascular disease than several other non-sardine eating countries.

Ok, great, you say - gimme some sardines. But wait. Are the sardines tinned or fresh? How are they prepared? Are they salted at all? Breaded? Fried, grilled or marinated? Served with sour cream, or lemon juice? What about the other 145 or so countries in the world? Do they eat sardines? What are THEIR cardiovascular disease stats? Why did the study authors choose THESE countries, and not others? What else do the people in these countries eat along with their sardines? What about the fact that sardine fisheries are seasonal? Does that matter? Who funded the study? Was it a fishery lobby group? An environmental group trying to shut down salmon farming or wild salmon fisheries? Who reviewed the study? Did the reviewers ask any of these questions? Does the data actually fit the conclusions? Can you tell?

Sorry, this is a bit of a rambling post. My point is, I think logic, self-knowledge and common sense are better tools for deciding what to eat than scientific studies.
Thanks for your input. I think you have a VERY good point(s).
post #16 of 17
subbing
post #17 of 17
ita with spughy! an outrageous amount of the 'research' on nutrition (and darn near everything else) is funded by someone with a vested interested in the results. Research that is not funded by people with a vested interest in the results often gets "disproved or discredited" by aforementioned people who have enough power (money) to make sure the vast majority or 'research' supports their interests.

this is my theory. look at the recommended nutrition. how much of what is recommended even existed a century ago? it is completely unreasonable to suggest that the best food for humans is food that most humans can't actually make with a processing plant. It is also unreasonable to suggest that we actually need that much corn and soy in out diets. low fat, non fat, processed soy, chemical laden vegetables. an unusually high amt of grains.... food that was once some kind of vegetable but is now oil, butter, fake meat, "fruit" juice.. etc... how on earth does that even begin to make sense?

my theory is that the people putting out these guidelines aren't stupid. they aren't going to tell people to ditch the processed food and run to your local farm for raw milk, free range meat, and local produce. that would be awfully bad for a lot of wallets. how many people can make cheese out of soy beans or remove the fat out of every product imaginable in their own kitchen? not many. but making butter from cream, and stock from a free ranged chicken is pretty doable... it is not in the best of interest of the people who make these decisions for america to actually eat real food. besides... we are a culture of convenience ... and while i think TF is convenient once you get used to it.. it does have a transition period that would turn people off. plus everyone would have to unbrainwashed in order to be able to eat fat and feel that its good for you.
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