Workshop #8: Discipline - Page 3

[taramommy]

ShivayaMama, it's funny you mentioned flylady. I discovered flylady in 2002 through an article in New Beginnings, the La Leche League magazine. I am on-again, off-again with flylady's techniques. I definitely think they are good and useful! (I am currently off the flylady wagon, though ) Thanks for the reminder. I do use some of what she teaches regularly, though, even though I am unsubbed from her list currently (I get overwhelmed easily at times).

[sunnygir1]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

So I have to keep shadowing her, and being proactive and helping her to communicate, sometimes taking her out of the play area if she just keeps being aggressive.

Hello all. This is a great conversation! I haven't gotten through all the responses yet, but I wanted to comment on this.

I do not mean to offend, and I am not judging your parenting; reading this just brought up a thought for me:
When we are so engaged with our children, especially the busy and sharing-challenged among them, how do we balance their need to be self-reliant and negotiate the world on their own with the social need for us to intervene when their behavior is inappropriate?

I have found it very valuable for my 22 month old dd to attend a day care two days a week. It is a really great teaching center at a university. I think it has been really good for dd to form relationships with other (gentle) adults and with other children. I think it is really helpful for her to learn what is appropriate and inappropriate from other people as well as me; then it becomes clear that it is a cultural rule rather than "mama's rule," if you kwim. I guess I'm getting at the "community to raise a child" thing.

I am fortunate to have a sister and a mother who are very active in clearly communicating boundaries with dd. I think our society really lacks that kind of interaction with children. I know it's super touchy to "get real" with other people's children, but when there is an entire community treating children as equal partners in society the result is beautiful.

That's all for now.

[mammal_mama]

Hi, sunnygir1! I do see your point, but whenever my 3yo is showing a tendency to be aggressive, I simply don't feel okay about sitting back and waiting 'til she's hurt someone before I intervene.

I'm glad that you have people you can trust to care for your child: Unfortunately, the people I currently know all believe in some form of punishment. I'm trying to branch out and get to know more gentle-discipline folks, so hopefully we'll soon have a more trustworthy community.

However, we don't believe in forced separations, and our 3yo is very attached to me, so even when we have our trusted community, it will probably be a while before she spends time with others without me or dh being there.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Hi, sunnygir1! I do see your point, but whenever my 3yo is showing a tendency to be aggressive, I simply don't feel okay about sitting back and waiting 'til she's hurt someone before I intervene.

I have a physically aggressive 3 year old as well, so like mammal_mama, my first priority is to try and keep him from hurting other kids (or grown ups!). And that means sticking to him like glue. All. The. Time. Oh how I have often longed to be in that other room chatting with all the other moms who have more gentle children!

While I think it helps to have others reinforce appropriate cultural behavior, it will not magically transform an aggressive-natured child into a gentle-natured child. My DS has regular interaction with a wonderful community of GD moms and it has not changed his tendency to act out physically. He is much more inflexible and easily frustrated than the average kid and so he requires more help learning skills to overcome and express his emotions. Having another person simply tell him what's appropriate/inappropriate will not change his behavior. Unless you have an aggressive child like mine (or have a child who has been "beat up" by a child like mine), it's hard to understand.

Which brings me to why I was drawn to this thread...help! I have an aggressive child! To make things worse, DS' behavior has become amplified with the birth of his sister two months ago. I am really looking for some support and advice on how to keep my cool and stay true to the GD principles I believe in when DS goes Rambo on everyone in the waiting room at the doctors office...

[mammal_mama]

It's good to know I'm not alone, MamaKalena!

[PaxMamma]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

Which brings me to why I was drawn to this thread...help! I have an aggressive child! To make things worse, DS' behavior has become amplified with the birth of his sister two months ago. I am really looking for some support and advice on how to keep my cool and stay true to the GD principles I believe in when DS goes Rambo on everyone in the waiting room at the doctors office...

you may have already considered this, but have you looked at his diet? i have one gentle child and one more aggressive. i have definitely noticed a difference with both of them when they eat certain foods. too much sugar (natural, fruit, yogurt, etc) makes my youngest hostile. red dye is a major no=no for him (really should be for everyone, i know). my oldest has more complicated issues, but too much wheat and dairy sends him over the edge.

[jenmk]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

I have a physically aggressive 3 year old as well, so like mammal_mama, my first priority is to try and keep him from hurting other kids (or grown ups!). And that means sticking to him like glue. All. The. Time. Oh how I have often longed to be in that other room chatting with all the other moms who have more gentle children!

While I think it helps to have others reinforce appropriate cultural behavior, it will not magically transform an aggressive-natured child into a gentle-natured child. My DS has regular interaction with a wonderful community of GD moms and it has not changed his tendency to act out physically. He is much more inflexible and easily frustrated than the average kid and so he requires more help learning skills to overcome and express his emotions. Having another person simply tell him what's appropriate/inappropriate will not change his behavior. Unless you have an aggressive child like mine (or have a child who has been "beat up" by a child like mine), it's hard to understand.

MamaKalena, if your child is physical without seeming malicious in his intent (by that I mean that he hurts others without provocation, he's not getting even or reacting in anger most of the time, he may seem to do these things because he has to, that it seems out of his control) I'd look into sensory processing disorder (aka sensory integration disorder). You can find info online, but a great book to start with is Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka which discusses children that are more intense, more sensitive, more needy . . . just more. From your description it seems as if your son could fall into that category.

My eldest, who is 6, has been more physical from very early on. He would walk by his younger brother and push him over for no reason that I could see--no one was upset, his brother was a baby just sitting on the floor minding his own business, etc. It was SO frustrating for me because I just couldn't understand why he would do these things. I could understand better if it was out of anger, and could teach him how to better navigate the situation, but 99% of the time, there was no anger involved. What's more, these things he would do seemed so out of character for him because he was such a sensitive, sweet, gentle person. It just didn't fit. This went on for years (including many other behaviors) with him being physical, but not something I would ever term aggressive (unless he was upset or angry). About a year ago I stumbled across sensory processing disorder . . . and there was my son. So now I understand more of what's going on with him and how to help him get what he needs so he is not hurting others.

One other thought, for something mammal_mama said: that she shadows her daughter and tries to prevent things from happening. When it comes to physical acts that would hurt others, it makes sense to me to stop it before it can happen for more than just the not-wanting-your-child-to-hurt-someone-else's-child reason. It seems logical that the less a child does some action, like pushing for example, the less likely s/he is to continue to do it. So if you can stop it before it happens, perhaps it will not become a habit with a child to do it. (Of course, that doesn't work if your child has sensory integration issues, I have found out by experience!) If you can instead teach your child to approach others with gentleness by distracting her from or interrupting her physical impulse before it happens, that would seem to be more effective at by-passing what could be months of your child hurting others, and all the guilt, stress, and frustration that goes with that.

[boigrrrlwonder]

Originally Posted by xtara2003x

I'm fairly young, (23), and I didn't really have what I consider to be a good role model as far as gentle discipline and basically a house keeper. I am a SAHM and I also work PT....but I feel like I have to learn EVERYTHING about running a household and being a good mother on my own....any tips?

I'm a young parent, too (21 years old) and I feel this way a lot, too. Studying parenting and homemaking is just as much work as studying for school ever was. People have mentioned FlyLady. A lot of what she says isn't relevant to me, but a big thing I've gotten out of her book is figuring out a routine that *does* work for me and breaking tasks down into manageable pieces.

Originally Posted by sunnygir1

When we are so engaged with our children, especially the busy and sharing-challenged among them, how do we balance their need to be self-reliant and negotiate the world on their own with the social need for us to intervene when their behavior is inappropriate?

I have found it very valuable for my 22 month old dd to attend a day care two days a week. It is a really great teaching center at a university. I think it has been really good for dd to form relationships with other (gentle) adults and with other children. I think it is really helpful for her to learn what is appropriate and inappropriate from other people as well as me; then it becomes clear that it is a cultural rule rather than "mama's rule," if you kwim. I guess I'm getting at the "community to raise a child" thing.

I'm jealous that you've found a good community to help you raise your child. I like the idea of "it takes a community to raise a child" idea, but sometimes it just seems like the larger community's ideas on how to raise a child is simply horrible. I particularly struggle with this as an introvert, because it takes a lot of my energy to do the work to make the kind of connections to build a tribe like that.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by PaxMamma

you may have already considered this, but have you looked at his diet? i have one gentle child and one more aggressive. i have definitely noticed a difference with both of them when they eat certain foods. too much sugar (natural, fruit, yogurt, etc) makes my youngest hostile. red dye is a major no=no for him (really should be for everyone, i know). my oldest has more complicated issues, but too much wheat and dairy sends him over the edge.

We have been suspicious of his diet because he is not a big eater and never has been unless it was mama's milk! His main staple these days is yogurt and granola -- sometimes it's all he'll eat for dinner! We try to keep the sugar down by using mostly plain yogurt, but even that has sugar. I think he would flip if we didn't let him eat it anymore! How much sugar can your youngest tolerate before you notice it affecting him? And how much wheat and dairy can your oldest handle? I would love any diet tips.

While I think it's worth experimenting with his diet, my gut tells me this might be just who he is because I remember that even at 6 months when he started crawling he'd go over to other kids in our parent/baby group and bite them. Then when he started walking at 9 months he changed to hitting since he had his hands free. His language skills developed early, too, but still he would just react instead of use words when he got frustrated. I knew that toddlers have very little impulse control and so assumed that was a big part of it. Now that he is almost four I expected things to have improved, but instead it's gotten worse.

[PaxMamma]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

We have been suspicious of his diet because he is not a big eater and never has been unless it was mama's milk! His main staple these days is yogurt and granola -- sometimes it's all he'll eat for dinner! We try to keep the sugar down by using mostly plain yogurt, but even that has sugar. I think he would flip if we didn't let him eat it anymore! How much sugar can your youngest tolerate before you notice it affecting him? And how much wheat and dairy can your oldest handle? I would love any diet tips.

While I think it's worth experimenting with his diet, my gut tells me this might be just who he is because I remember that even at 6 months when he started crawling he'd go over to other kids in our parent/baby group and bite them. Then when he started walking at 9 months he changed to hitting since he had his hands free. His language skills developed early, too, but still he would just react instead of use words when he got frustrated. I knew that toddlers have very little impulse control and so assumed that was a big part of it. Now that he is almost four I expected things to have improved, but instead it's gotten worse.

if he has such a strong propensity towards wheat and dairy (like the yogurt and granola) then that would be the first clue that he actually has an allergy. that's how allergies work, the cause such a strong reaction within your body that you crave it even more. and if you were consuming wheat and dairy while BFing, then he was getting that in the Breastmilk and could definitely have been a factor even then.

as far as sugar and my youngest, it also has to do w/how much protein he gets along w/the sugar. so, if he has a fruit, i try to get him to eat a protein as well. we have good days and bad days, but i try to steer him towards non-sugary items.

we had my oldest on a gluten-free, casein-free diet for 6 months and saw great improvement in the meltdowns and anger. we then slowly reintro'd it by letting him have one wheat or dairy a day. his body seemed to tolerate it okay. we're actually now to the point where i think we need to go back to the GF/CF. he's not been doing so great lately.

if you're going to make dietary changes, my recommendation would be to do it slowly. don't tell him he can't have yogurt ever again, but try offering a substitute for the yogurt and let him keep the granola. then make changes to the granola, etc. try to up the other areas of his diet that may be missing. let him fill up on veggies, nuts, protein, etc.

what happens if you're just out of granola and yogurt? what would he do?

[jenneology]

That's an awesome, brief description of Gentle Discipline. Its probably the best compilation of information that I've seen on the topic. My undergraduate and graduate education is in early childhood education so discipline is a big, BIG topic that I learned a lot about. My education was basically training me to become a parent educator, but I was really young (still am, but at least I am a mother now) and I've got my new shiny initials at the end of my name, so maybe I'll be going back to spreading information on gentle discipline to parents. But at this point, I'm busy practicing with my own...

To me, its a good summary of my favorite discipline resources:
Punished By Rewards by Alfie Kohn
Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson
The Guides to Speech and Action from Katherine Read Baker (1976) The
Nursery School: A Human Relationships Laboratory. Philadelphia, W.B. Saunders Company.

I haven't read Peggy's book yet, but maybe that will be a Christmas present to myself.

[allgirls]

Jenneology, thanks for participating. I'm sure you will make good use of those nice shiny initials and congratulations on that.

It's nice when you have a community to help you raise your children but it can be very stressful if the community is batting against your ideas rather than for them. I've never had grandparents/family around to help me with the kids and sometimes I've longed for that but then I send my daughter home with my mother last summer and she calls because a group of kids walked my daughter home(she's 14) and there was a boy(gasp) in the group. We're not afraid of boys in my home although it would appear we might be with only girls .

I think we have to hug and talk. I've spent a lot of time reading, researching, I'm am a bonafied expert without a degree and I've found that with all the complicated expert opinions and myriad of research I've waded through it comes down to enjoying the moments as they occur, realistic expectations and understanding of the developmental age of the child, oodles of compassion for their circumstances as new people on earth and a good balance in your own life.

Our children must be our first priority but that doesn't mean they get to go first every single time. And let go of guilt. We all make mistakes. Guilt just weakens our parenting skills and interferes with the normal development of the relationship. I hold some regrets as a parent, I've made some mistakes of course but I hold zero guilt inside me for any of them because no one could love and do more for these kids than I am.

and now I must go wake one up for school

[mammal_mama]

I feel pretty good about something today. This afternoon while I was fixing dinner, my 3yo started running around doing all kinds of difficult stuff -- throwing her snack around, squirting her sister in the face with water from a squirt-bottle ...

I started out saying, "WHY are you doing this? --" Then stopped and said, "How would you like to play with some play-dough?" And she was all excited and sat at the kitchen table and did that the whole time I fixed dinner.

And I brainstormed some other ideas I could have used if that hadn't worked (for future reference) -- such as ripping up lettuce for the salad, chopping celery with a butter knife, painting, washing off her toys with the squirt-bottle (on a towel on the kitchen floor, after which I could have swiped up the whole floor with the wet towel and had a cleaner floor ) ...

But. There are many areas where I still feel so clueless. Last week we had to go to the ER (luckily it was just a sprained finger and not a broken one) -- and the nurse asked me if our 3yo had some kind of a diagnosis like ADHD. She said that's what her daughter has, and my dd reminded her of her own dd, because of the way she was rapidly (and involuntarily) moving her arms and legs around while she sat in the chair.

I said dd'd always done that when she was excited, and it hadn't occurred to me to think it might be ADHD (I've heard another theory about this being caused by hunger, but that doesn't seem to be the case with my dd) ...

When I was home, I looked ADHD up, and it gave a list of unapplicable stuff about schoolwork. We unschool, so I don't think ADHD will ever be applicable.

Sometimes, when dd is being really physical and aggressive, I wonder if she's "sensory-seeking" which I heard a little about here at MDC. It does seem to help when we do lots of rough-housing -- though I have to be careful, 'cause if we keep doing it beyond a certain point (it's usually both dd's and me), someone always seems to get hurt.

[umsami]

The one thing I'm realizing is that each of my children are completely different and respond to different GD techniques. I'm not sure how DD is going to be, as she's only 17 months old... but it should be interesting to find out.

DS1 was having anger/frustration issues.... so I tried to teach him how to take deep breaths and calm down a bit. I was very happy to see him tell his little brother to not be so upset and take deep breaths to feel better.

How do you Mamas deal with talking back?

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by jenmk

MamaKalena, if your child is physical without seeming malicious in his intent (by that I mean that he hurts others without provocation, he's not getting even or reacting in anger most of the time, he may seem to do these things because he has to, that it seems out of his control) I'd look into sensory processing disorder (aka sensory integration disorder). You can find info online, but a great book to start with is Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka which discusses children that are more intense, more sensitive, more needy . . . just more. From your description it seems as if your son could fall into that category.

Hmm...I don't know. After googling this and glancing at the symptom checklist, he doesn't seem to fit the description. Yet I'd say half the time he just walks up to some poor kid and pushes or hits them for no reason. Or he'll attack someone over small things like a kid is standing in his way or playing with something in the sandbox that he'd like to play with. I've been trying to give him the words to use when situations like these arise, and I know he tries really hard, but he has such a short fuse.

[MamaKalena]

Originally Posted by PaxMamma

if he has such a strong propensity towards wheat and dairy (like the yogurt and granola) then that would be the first clue that he actually has an allergy. that's how allergies work, the cause such a strong reaction within your body that you crave it even more. and if you were consuming wheat and dairy while BFing, then he was getting that in the Breastmilk and could definitely have been a factor even then.

as far as sugar and my youngest, it also has to do w/how much protein he gets along w/the sugar. so, if he has a fruit, i try to get him to eat a protein as well. we have good days and bad days, but i try to steer him towards non-sugary items.

we had my oldest on a gluten-free, casein-free diet for 6 months and saw great improvement in the meltdowns and anger. we then slowly reintro'd it by letting him have one wheat or dairy a day. his body seemed to tolerate it okay. we're actually now to the point where i think we need to go back to the GF/CF. he's not been doing so great lately.

if you're going to make dietary changes, my recommendation would be to do it slowly. don't tell him he can't have yogurt ever again, but try offering a substitute for the yogurt and let him keep the granola. then make changes to the granola, etc. try to up the other areas of his diet that may be missing. let him fill up on veggies, nuts, protein, etc.

what happens if you're just out of granola and yogurt? what would he do?

I'd like for DS to try a GF/CF diet. It's going to be hard, though. The kid no longer eats ANY veggies except a couple slices of carrots now and then. He used to eat all kinds, but over the last year or two he has simply refused. So I actually have resorted to giving him powdered greens in smoothies. Could you give me an example of a what your son eats for breakfast, lunch and dinner on a typical day? Also, how long was he GF/CF before you saw a change in his behavior? Thanks for all the info! It's been very helpful.

Originally Posted by PaxMamma

what happens if you're just out of granola and yogurt? what would he do?

This has happened. We ran out and I told him we'll get more the next time we go grocery shopping and he cried and got really upset. Of course, it didn't help that he had just woken up and was hungry. I think I'd just have to gradually phase it like you suggested. He's a smart one, though, and very persistent. This is a going to be a fun diet for our family.

[PaxMamma]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

I'd like for DS to try a GF/CF diet. It's going to be hard, though. The kid no longer eats ANY veggies except a couple slices of carrots now and then. He used to eat all kinds, but over the last year or two he has simply refused. So I actually have resorted to giving him powdered greens in smoothies. Could you give me an example of a what your son eats for breakfast, lunch and dinner on a typical day? Also, how long was he GF/CF before you saw a change in his behavior? Thanks for all the info! It's been very helpful.

i don't mean to hijackthis thread, but truly diet plays a major factor in how our children (and us, as adults) behave. my son was the same as yours, he dropped all fruits and veggies from his diet and got down to only eating pancakes, yogurt, and cheese. so, i made a miracle recipe for pancakes, there's everything in there, including zuccini, sweet potato, and flax. (i can PM you the recipe, if you like) this was his main staple for years. we now have him in feeding thereapy to accept new foods. but, he was eating pancakes for all 3 meals. he would eat potato chips, corn chips, or GF/CF cereal for snacks in between. and he ONLY drank water until recently.

i believe it will take 14 - 60 days to eliminate gluten and casein from the bowels before you will see total improvement.

[jenmk]

Originally Posted by MamaKalena

Hmm...I don't know. After googling this and glancing at the symptom checklist, he doesn't seem to fit the description. Yet I'd say half the time he just walks up to some poor kid and pushes or hits them for no reason. Or he'll attack someone over small things like a kid is standing in his way or playing with something in the sandbox that he'd like to play with. I've been trying to give him the words to use when situations like these arise, and I know he tries really hard, but he has such a short fuse.

For what it's worth, the info I first found about it didn't seem to apply to my son. This site, Sensory Processing Disorder, was the one that had the most detailed info and the one that really made me think it might be what my son had going on. He would push for no reason, and still does, when he is sensory seeking. Thankfully I'm learning what to do physically to help him regain his inner balance so he's able to be gentle.

Regardless, I hope you find what works with your son. I know from experience how frustrating it is to have a child that is physical. It's a real challenge to my sense of GD sometimes.

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by taramommy

...
On the subject of authoritativeness... I once read the difference between an "authoritative" parent vs. an "authoritarian" parent. As a matter of fact, to quote the article, "'Parents who are not harshly punitive, but who set firm boundaries and stick to them, are significantly more likely to produce children who are high achievers and who get along well with others,' states U.S.News & World Report. Such parents are termed 'authoritative' ('do it for this reason'), as opposed to 'authoritarian' ('do it because I’m the parent') and 'permissive' ('do whatever you want'), disciplinary styles that produced children with behavioral traits that were markedly different. The studies, which spanned two decades, showed that authoritative parents were more likely to have children who were stable, contented, self-controlled, and self-reliant, and who were less likely to experiment with drugs. 'Authoritative parents are not bossy.'” I think we all think it's important to set boundaries and teach our children the reasons behind behaviors we expect, right? Thoughts on these statements?

Thank you for taking the time to differentiate between authoritarian and authoritative parenting. So often I see those terms used interchangeably, and they are very different from each other.

I think most all of us here would not want to be authoritarian, and I expect that many of us here strive toward authoritative parenting. (I do.)

[Paeta16]

I like the definition of authoritative parent. This will definitely resonate with my DH. I think he often thinks some gentle discipline techniques are too permissive.

Thanks!