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Would you invade your child's privacy to make sure they are okay? - Page 7

post #121 of 293
I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.
post #122 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.
they wont.
post #123 of 293
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.
post #124 of 293
you don't kids need or deserve privacy? why not?
post #125 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by avengingophelia View Post
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.
I think for some people "keeping kids safe" is a euphemism for "attempting to assert complete control".

You can't control a teen. You can try, but you can't control them. All you can do is hope that they cooperate. A teen treated like she has no right to privacy, and shown that she is not trusted or respected is unlikely to cooperate.
post #126 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
Recording your child's keystrokes simply means they will use the library computer or a friends computer for things they don't want you to see.
I agree with this - I went to the library one time to get on the internet (i was trying to get some extra coupons and my computer had already printed the limit ). Every single computer was in use by tweens and teens. And the majority were on IM or myspace.

To answer the original OP - I would only invade my child's privacy if I thought they were in trouble. And I would never use any of it in a shaming way. And trouble would mean suicidal or drugs.
post #127 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
you don't kids need or deserve privacy? why not?
No, I absolutely DO think that kids need and deserve privacy. But some here clearly don't. That was my point. I can't wrap my head around that.
post #128 of 293
This thread has prompted a few interesting conversations with my 13 and 12 yo dds. They said that they think that if they are acting like they would be suicidal or on drugs or drinking too much alcohol then we should snoop in their room but not for any other reason. I love that I can talk to my kids about this kind of thing. I never could talk to my mom growing up. Actually, her snooping through my room is how she found out I was pregnant with my oldest dd.
post #129 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by avengingophelia View Post
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.
I can't believe it either. I wonder how much people know about adolescent development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
I think for some people "keeping kids safe" is a euphemism for "attempting to assert complete control".

You can't control a teen. You can try, but you can't control them. All you can do is hope that they cooperate. A teen treated like she has no right to privacy, and shown that she is not trusted or respected is unlikely to cooperate.
Yes.

I can tell right now which kids are not going to trust or open up to their parents, which ones are more likely to act out, etc.

Self fulfilling prophecy here. Very sad.
post #130 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
I think what one expcts makes a huge difference babout how we feel about this. My childen hav no expectation of pivacy. i you write it people will read it. if you photograph it people will see it. if you bring it in the house the dog will chew it. everything on the internet is public poperty. No one in this house house has a huge expectation of privacy. We are lucky if the bathroom door stays shut while we ae pooing. ooms are shared, living areas ar common and we have on computer that has filters, reports etc. but they know all this. and I think it is a good thing to know. So many people get into trouble beause they think they are so clever and that a passwod or taboo or whatver is going to potect them but if you don't want it accessible don't leave the evidence around.
I think that is true. In our home we have an expectation of privacy. Although my son is only 3, he is able to have private time in the bathroom to use the toilet if he wants it, and we have discussed his "private parts" and why they are private. And we intend to keep having that discussion.

My husband is free to write in his journal and I in mine and not have to store them in locked boxes. We each may have time in the bathroom with the door shut to do... whatever we want to do.

We both are free to participate in communities - online and off - without having to record each other's keystrokes or report on what exactly was said because we both trust each other fundamentally and believe that part of being an autonomous human being involves some privacy - like being able to go out for lunch with a girlfriend and vent.

I value my time on these forums where I occasionally share things about my experience of growing up with my parents' foibles, or frustrations, and while there is nothing that I would write that would be a dealbreaker in those relationships, I also choose my place and time so that I can have these conversations apart from them with a reasonable - not rock-solid - expectation that they're not likely to 'overhear'. I use a username that does identify me well enough that if you looked you could spot me, but it also isn't so unique as to come up on Google.

I'm ok with my son doing the same in his future.

I don't personally think the only answer is "everything online is public so I can read all your email anytime I want." It's an ethical question we all are grappling with - for example, it may or may not be legal to forward email, but we all need to think about whether it is ethical. Is it right to post email to a bulletin board to make fun of it because "it's public"? These are not simple things.

I think a lot of these questions were raised with phone lines (anyone else remember party lines?) but can you imagine if your neighbour tapped your line? Ha.

I value privacy and I also value the ability to have different connections and conversations with different people without having to run them past my family as a censor. And I intend to provide that for my son.

I can see that other homes operate differently and that's fine, just expressing my views.
post #131 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by avengingophelia View Post
There seems to be a base level disagreement here about whether privacy is something kids need (or deserve), as a rule. I honestly can't believe anyone wouldn't think they both need and deserve it, but clearly some people do.
I guess I have different standards for different realms of privacy.

Privacy to not have their every thought, move, and idea monitored, recorded, and/or criticized/used as ammunition against them? Absolutely.

Privacy to be able to be alone in the bathroom, their bedrooms and have a private paper journal and private phone conversations? Sure.

Privacy online? Not so much. As others have said, everything online is pretty well public, and there are unfortunately lots of sneaky ways people can take advantage of unsuspecting people (esp kids).

Privacy to have their own cell phone with texting plan? Again, not really in my book (DH and I have pay-as-you-go, bare bones cell phones, and will consider the same for kids as they get older, but not a bells and whistles type deal).

Privacy such that they're not accountable for where they are, and who they're with? Nope.


FWIW, all of the above go for me and DH as well - so it's no double standard.

BUT, if there are signs of trouble brewing? IMO, my first responsibility is to keep them safe and healthy...not to respect their privacy as absolute.
post #132 of 293
I've asked my kids on their opinion on this matter a while ago when it was discussed on a TV show or something. My older 2 are 16 and 13. They both said that they would search through their own kids belongings if they thought they needed to. These are kids who, as most of us know, probably spend plenty of time thinking "I'd never do *this* like my parents", but they are also not naive enough to think that teenagers don't get into trouble and sometimes need an adult to intervene. I can't stress enough that as much as some kids love and trust their parents, sometimes that backfires because they are afraid that their parents won't feel the same way once they find out what they've done. They won't be honest, sometimes for the first time in their parent/child relationship, because they are scared of disappointing their parents.
post #133 of 293
My children will have privacy unless I have a good suspicion that something is happening that can harm them, and at that point my responsibility to protect them will be greater than their need for privacy.
post #134 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by amydidit View Post
Just because a child is a full and complete human doesn't mean they have the maturity, wisdom, knowledge they need to lead a safe life. I wouldn't send a child out into the world to live by herself for a reason. Children NEED guidance and a parent to help them grow up into an adult who IS prepared for the real world. I don't believe a parent can do the best possible job of that without ALL the info.

I do it BECAUSE I love my children. I do it because I know what harm can come of a parent who looks away and doesn't KNOW what their child is doing. I will do everything in my power to ensure my children stay safe so they CAN grow up into adults. That is my role as a parent, and one I take very seriously.
: I think this says it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.
post #135 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by avengingophelia View Post
No, I absolutely DO think that kids need and deserve privacy. But some here clearly don't. That was my point. I can't wrap my head around that.
oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.
post #136 of 293
Ive never done it. But, if I felt like I had a reason to, I certainly would.
post #137 of 293
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.

Very very well said. *nods* I agree.
post #138 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
oo ok.. i had read your pp was wondering when you changed your mind lol. but yeah i agree with you i don't understand why people seem to think children don't need or deserve privacy.

the internet i can understand monitoring... but only to an extent.. put parental controls up for goodness sake... check the webpage history.... you don't need their myspace password to view their page... you just need to know they have a myspace... and if it is on private you need to be their friend. i have a myspace account with nothing on it so i can keep up with my friends.

they should not expect emails and IMs to be confidential... and chances are good that they will learn this the hard way. The first time one of there 'friends' prints out an email or an IM convo and shows it to whomever was being discussed and then both people and probably a few extras will be steaming mad (and depending on the age give them the silent treatment for awhile) they will learn real quick if you don't want someone to see it then you probably shouldn't type it.

i would much rather have my kid learn about the internet that way. what do they learn from you telling them nothing they say on the internet is private because you are monitoring their every keystroke? they learn not to type on your computer... and they learn not to trust you. Knowing you are monitoring them doesn't teach them about the internet it teaches them about you.
Yep. I always tell my kids never to put anything on email, IM or the internet that they would be embarrassed to see published in the NY Times Cos it never goes away. The same goes for text and picture messages from their phones. With 2 parents working in IT, they got that message pretty early. So, they will be discreet regardless of the location of the PC.
post #139 of 293
Choli and Jsma - i learned it the hard way in high school lol.. so did everyone i know at one point or another. lol it sucks! but it definitely gets the message across lol.

actions speak louder then words and your (general you) actions say you don't trust them at all. they will have a very hard time learning to be trust worthy. They have never had trust so they will not know how important it is, how easy it is to break, and how hard it is to repair.

Ok lets say you have an really good kid... she doesn't get into trouble, doesnt look at or talk about things you disapprove of. the worst thing she is hiding is that she is dating a guy in her class. which she hides by not talking to him or about him at home.. they pass notes in school but she leaves them in her locker. her and her best friend who you know and trust go to the movies together and bump into him. the hold hands watch the movie and go home.

lets say you have a kid who's not quite a easy. she makes a friend (G)you dont like... she knows you don't like her. you tell her that you really dont trust her ... b/c you honeslt have a bad feeling. she ignores you b/c its not like you trust her ... and shes your own daughter... no surprise you don't trust anyone else. She tells you they arent hanging out anymore. she stops talking about her at home.. and never talks to her on your phone, your computer, or her cell phone. she does however by a pay as you go phone ... which you don't have to be 18 to buy... if you don't let her have money her friend helps her pay for it. they talk on the phone at night after she is supposed to be in bed. harmless enough

she wants to hang out with G outside of school. she tells you she is going to M's house.. you know M and her parents and you trust them. M knows all about this and tells her mom she is coming to spend the night. You talk to M's parents when you drop you daughter off there. Your daughter then sneaks out of M's house and goes out with G ... when you call M's house to check on her M tells you they are talking on the other line to a friend from school and can you hold on a minute. she switches over calls your daughter on threeway waits for her to answer then switches back. you talk to your daughter.. all is well. meanwhile you daughter is out with G and her big sister and her sisters friend. she drinks and so does G and G's sister but shes not about to call and tell you where she is so she risks it and gets back to M's house no worse for the wear.

except that she learned a lot from all of this.

1. she can sneak out of a house.. first her friends.. yours is probably next
2. she can lie about where she is any you won't know.
3. Older kids are fun to hang out with
4. she can drink without you knowing
5. her friends older sister can drink and then drive safely
6. all this time you really have been being completely unreasonable.. she lied to you, snuck out, hung out with older kids, got drunk, drove with someone drunk and she is perfectly fine and had a great time best part is you never found out

so she took those first little steps and she keeps taking more and more and getting better and better at them. she's great at lying, much sneakier, drinks and gets high regularly, has sex with one of the older guys, and thinks people can drink and drive as long as they are tipsy not drunk.. or if its been atleast 2 hours since their last drink and they had something to eat,

well you have been snooping all this time and found nothing to be worried about. you didn't notice your daughter was acting different b/c you have never given her any trust so she has never really trusted you.

you wake up one night and realize your daughters not there. where is she? you look through her room and find nothing (as usual) re check the internet..nothing. you call her cell phone and see it vibrating next to her bed. you panic... and call M's mom. M's mom tells you she and M haven't hung out in a long time. this is a surprise b/c when your daughter does talk to about things in her life it is mostly things about her and M at school.

M's mom says she will wake M up and call you back. She calls you back with the number of the cell phone you didn't know she had. when you call her she laughs at you for taking so long to figure it out... and flat refuses to come home.

you can ground her, monitor her, take away both phones, whatever you want. but it wont matter b/c the only difference is that she is officially 'grounded' but thats certainly wont stop her.

things you don't know

she has a myspace, Yahoo account, online journal, and screen name she only accesses at school and at friends houses so you won't find out

she has a bag that she keeps in G's car it has clothes that you wouldn't approve of, a tooth brush, hair brush, and make up. it also has a fake ID, a pack of cigarettes, a dime bag, condoms, a bottle vodka, the Percoset she stole from your husband after he got is wisdom teeth pulled.. she sells it when she needs money to pay for the rest of the stuff in the bag.. and the pay as you go phone she bought after you took the old old. she keeps it with her at all times...

at this point what happens is hit or miss. what happens depends on the people involved.
post #140 of 293
Quote:
Why would a child follow your rules, tell you the truth, ask your permission etc let alone actually talk to you about their life and their feelings when you have already decided you don't trust them?
My parents decided when I was 16 that they could not trust me. They still refuse to discuss exactly what triggered this. What they said at the time was that they believed I was keeping secrets. Well, of course I had some secrets--I was 16 and beginning to have my own life--but none of them were dreadful. I felt like they punished me when I did talk to them, by blowing everything out of proportion and assuming that I was doing everything my friends were doing. You know, sometimes I told them about my friends because I was uncomfortable with what my friends did and wanted to talk about that!

The two biggest blowups I ever had with my parents were caused by someone ELSE's parents snooping on their teen's correspondence with me and feeling a need to tell my parents about it--or actually, in the one case, feeling a need to tell her co-worker who told her husband who worked with my dad and told him, so that he got a totally distorted impression of what was going on. : And the biggest mistake they made both times was thinking that they understood the situation from the information they had, jumping on me for what they thought I was doing rather than asking me what was going on, and refusing (at first) to reveal their sources so I could understand where they were coming from. This could be a big problem for parents who do the snooping themselves, too. What it does is put the child on the defensive against false accusations, make her paranoid about how you're getting the information, and motivate her to avoid letting you find out anything further about her for fear that you'll twist it.
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