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So I wigged out at the Walmart greeter today... - Page 8

post #141 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by laohaire View Post
Also, please raise your hand if being taught as a child to be "civilized" when people are touching you inappropriately (or have been manipulated to tolerate this to avoid "hurting the person's feelings") has hurt you or someone you know?

In my case, it's someone I know. <Raises hand>
raising hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
Ok, trying not to get heated here. But to me I see a very big difference between teaching your kids not to let people touch them inappropriately and helping them learn to set boundaries with other people when the touching is not desired, but not sexual in nature.

In the first case, by any means necessary, kids should yell, scream, etc. Be taught that there is nothing they can't say to their parents, that no one should touch them in private areas without their consent.

In the other, they can learn to say, "No thank you, I don't want a hug" without yelling and humiliating the well-meaning individual.

You can't go through life "wigging out" on those clueless people who think all kids or young people like hugs, and surely even as adults we've all had those moments where we have to handle people who want to hug when we don't.

My loving, clueless, well-meaning father still tries to hug DS when he is in meltdown mode, despite knowing and being told that it doesn't help. He is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with people (sneaking suspicion he's on the spectrum, but certainly never diagnosed). Yelling at him would be so humiliating for him. I just tell him firmly that DS doesn't feel like hugging, or whatever.

Honestly, some people truly are clueless. I think this guy really did believe his job was to make everyone smile, even if the kid was melting down. I agree with the PP who said that she hoped his manager was gentle with him. I also hope he did not lose his job in these tough economic times.
But how does the two year old child know the diffrence between the abductor and the clueless old man? I mean, its ok for SOME men to grab you and drag you away from your mother while youre screaming for them not to, but not others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by laohaire View Post
It's well-known that predators get children used to being touched non-sexually at first. Hugs, holding hands. Backrubs as a transition point. (Before anyone jumps on me about suggesting this Walmart greeter was a predator, I'm not - but I AM saying that drawing a distinction between unwanted touching that an adult would judge as sexual in nature vs unwanted touching that an adult would not judge as sexual in nature is not helpful to the safety of children).



But it's ok to touch other places without their consent - indeed, with their explicit nonconsent? And here, it's too easy for a child to internalize this lesson and not be able to discern the exact moment when touch is sexual in nature - and if they are, they are already too brainwashed and shamed by the predator.



Ignoring the concept of a small child melting down being expected here to say "No thank you," how will this same small child judge a well-meaning individual from one who is not?



Why can't you go through life wigging out on people crossing major boundaries? It would hurt their feelings?

If a strange man forcibly tried to hug me, you can bet I would react with more than a smile and a "No thank you." Why would I do less for my child? And of course my child requires more protection than I do myself (because she is small and not as strong).



Between humiliating my father and humiliating my daughter - sorry, Dad. You're a grownup. You have choices. I've heard and read way too many stories of people who as children were abused but whose parents didn't protect them because, after all, it was Grandpa (or whoever) and "we don't want to embarass him."



Yes, some people are clueless. I protect my child against everyone, not just the ones who know better. Clueless people are a threat too. I will not teach my daughter "you have a right to your bodily integrity UNLESS the person is well-meaning, clueless, or your Grandpa."
Yes, this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
I think there is a huge difference. Someone down the street is trying to abduct my child. I yell.

I"m not in that situation 'teaching' my child, I"m protecting her in an emergency.

Elderly, possible disabled gentleman doing job in store, makes mistake in how to handle my child, I tell him firmly but politely 'no'. I remove my child.

My child learns that we say no, firmly and decisively if someone does something to our bodies that we don't like.

All the difference in the world, imo.
Again, Im just not sure that the child will know the diffrence. To a small child, a strange man prying her from her mother IS an emergancy, her fight or flight response was activitated no doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
You know, this is a really great way of looking at it. I don't honestly think that anyone who wouldn't yell in such a situation, actually would see it as "no big deal' for someone to pry their child away from them.

I realize that most people here at MDC, do agree that prying children away from their mothers is unacceptable. I guess I was just musing, in my previous post, about the fact that there are lots of lots of people who probably don't see anything wrong with disrespecting a child in this way.

Which may explain why the elderly man seemed to have no clue that he needed to stop. There are lots and lots of people who have never learned to take children seriously.

I'm honestly not sure whether or not I would yell in such a situation. When our oldest was only 5, we had a situation (in a home Bible-study) where she told dh and me "No" about something, and before dh and I could say anything, another woman (who was developmentally-challenged) grabbed onto dd and wouldn't let go, and started lecturing her about how she needed to listen to her mom and dad.

I was quietly and gently telling the woman, "Okay, that's enough!" but she was continuing to hang on to, and lecture, dd -- then dh yelled, "Take your hands off her!" I must say, his approach got instant results, whereas my more gentle approach obviously wasn't doing the trick.

So, in my case, I tend to fault myself for not having enough balls to deal with these disrespectful people head-on. And I do tend to applaud people like the OP, who find their voice and fearlessly use it.
Yes, this is me too. I wish I reacted more strongly more often. I have had situations where I felt ashamed later that I didnt protect my child/ren good enough.


Anyone who has read "protecting the gift"....no matter how nicely he did it, he discounted no, which is one of the major red flags.

I thought about this thread today...while at walmart! My stepdad saw us and snuck up on us, I spun arond to see a man with his hands on myshopping cart...with my baby inside! In the split second before I realized it was grandpa, he almost got cold cocked! And I wouldnt have felt bad! The protective instinct was that fast and that strong. Instincts dont have time to reason, question or observe social niceities. Just saying.
post #142 of 181
Seriously, if that were me in that situation. Not that it every would be becasue I have this unmistakable body language that says DON'T even touch my baby!! But if it did happen...well, either I would have started screaming, or a would have slugged him. I know that sounds super bad, but I'm way to overprotective of my child when it comes to strangers. I mean I'm trying to srart teaching him about stranger-danger and this sort of stuff happening doesn't help. A friendly smile and warm welcome to Walmart woulk be perfectly acceptable to me.
post #143 of 181
I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.
post #144 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there.
I hear ya, but to be fair, WalMart DOES (or at least DID...) have a policy of hiring people with disabilities to be their greeters. And if they don't - they certainly implied it with their TV ads years ago (I haven't watched TV for years, so I can't comment on recent commercials). Certainly at our local Walmart, 2 of the 3 greeters on staff there have obvious disabilities.
post #145 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.
No...I'm not basing it off anything other than the walmart's here hire exclusively people with disabilities or senior citizens with dementia for their greeters...I know this cause we did a volunteer project at christmas last year with school for these greeters.
post #146 of 181
It was the inability to detect the social cues that made people think he perhaps had a disability.
post #147 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anglyn View Post
raising hand.

But how does the two year old child know the diffrence between the abductor and the clueless old man? I mean, its ok for SOME men to grab you and drag you away from your mother while youre screaming for them not to, but not others?
Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.
post #148 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunnyflakes View Post
I am sorry that this happened to your child I would have been scared if I were her, too.

I was abused as a child, and I agree with the poster who said that touching does not always start off as sexual. When my Grandfather started touching me, it was just as a Grandfather would, it was only later on that it progressed to being sexual

At any rate, I do not have children, but I understand your need to protect them. I believe that children should have their personal space respected. I am a teacher and it irks me sometimes when parents tell their kids that they must give me a hug. Why? If they do not want to hug me, they are well within their right not to do so. If one of my students wants to hug me, they will, and they usually do many times during the day. But telling them they have to? I just don't get it : Just because they are small does not mean that they should not get to control their personal space.

None of us knows how we would have acted in the OP's situation. Older person or not, she did what she felt she had to to protect her child, who was obviously very distraught. When I was a Nanny I raised my voice exactly once. And that was when she was running in to the street. It got her attention very quickly. So I see that raising your voice does have a time and a place. It is not like the OP was yelling nasty things to him or anything, that is the difference, in my mind.
-

oh Bunnyflakes

You are correct --- its just not acceptable to touch total strangers particularly children.

I think the OP had a reflex action that many moms including myself would have ...anyone attempting to remove a child from moms arms must suffer the consequences. You dont need to be polite!! And you set a perfect example of when someone is trying to touch/take a child make a lot of noise so that it stops instantly. If its a total stranger --- ah no politeness needs to be happening-- scream bloody murder !!!!

Everyone should be teaching their child to scream and make a fuss if someone is trying to touch/take them!!! It doesn't matter that the original intent was to do something nice!

How many child abductions would have been stopped if we taught our children this!!

Walmart needs to do better training.

I still maintain OP - you did the right thing!!!! and I am glad you brought it to the attention of the management -- it needs to be dealt with!! ... particularly since this greeter is under the illusion that its his job to pry children from their parents!!!
post #149 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.
:

Thank you for posting this Marylizah, I was getting frustrated trying to explain myself and this is exactly what I wanted to say.
post #150 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.
But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.
post #151 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.


:

i think she was a plenty polite. polite (rightly) goes out the door pretty fast when some strange man has their hands on your child trying to remove them from your arms.

i think it was a great thing that the op's dd saw her being a protective mama bear. i don't think it's a bad thing for our kids to see us get fierce when it's indicated. she did try to be gentle for a moment, and that was obviously not working. her kid witnessed and learned that mama will not tolerate some weird dude TAKING HER from her, and that mama is not afraid to stand up for her.
post #152 of 181
Don't feel badly momma! You did what you had to in order to keep your LO safe...I hope that I would react the same way if in a similar situation. Like PPs have stated, I don't understand why some adults feel free to touch young people...when they know that any adult would stop them in their tracks!
post #153 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytwogirls View Post
And I feel badly....kinda. My oldest daughter is 2.5 and VERY shy and likes her personal space. She was already upset because she lost her favorite binkie before we left for Walmart. As we were going inside the store she was still wimpering and the greeter, an older gentleman, said "Little girl would you like a sticker?" And she FLIPPED out, screamed, and grabbed my leg and buried her head in my butt (yeah, it was lovely) I smiled and said "No thank you." He insisted on giving my youngest a sticker, which she ate entirely (yes, she LOVES paper.) Anyway, my oldest was still shaky as we were doing the self-check out and all of a sudden she grabbed my legs again and shrieked...yep, the greeter was back. He said "You are still crying? You must be having a bad day. Let me give you a hug." He actually bent down to pry her from me and I stopped him dead in his tracks by yelling "Don't touch her and don't even talk to her. Please leave me alone NOW!" He stood up and said "I was just trying to do my job lady. He walked off and then I had a crowd of people staring at me, two girls screaming because they had never heard their mother yell like that before. : Anyway, I feel terrible for yelling at him, but geez, could he NOT see she was scared to death of him? Sorry, rant over. I just had to get this off my chest.


I really understand you for feeling badly. But, he should not have tried to force himself on your daughter. So, you reacted on instinct to protect her. Please, don't beat yourself up for that. Everything is going to be okay. He was trying to help, but he should have just talked sweetly to your child. There was nothing wrong with what he said, as all of it was out of kindness. However, I had a problem with him trying to pry your daughter away from you. That would have upset me, too. I hope she finds her favorite bankie, and I hope things get better.
post #154 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
I probably would have yelled. And if he were actually trying to remove my child from my protection, I would have physically stayed his hand as well.

But that's not the biggest thing that is bothering me about this thread. Some are arguing that yelling is not polite or respectful, while referring to this man as a person with a disability. I think we have to re-evaluate how we think of other people, of "the kind of people who work at Wal-Mart". We have some serious class issues when we start referring to a person as disabled or feeble when there is no evidence to point in that direction. For no other real reason that I can see other than that he has a less-than-desirable underpaying job at a store most of don't like even though some of us are forced to shop there. Simply not yelling at a man is not indicative of respect if in our minds we automatically assume he is disabled or has dementia in order to be working as a Wal-Mart greeter.
People have said that maybe he has a disability, or that the fact that he behaved like that coupled with hte job that he does, where Walmart hire people with disabilities often to do that job, makes them wonder.

I have relatives who work at Walmart. Not for one moment do I think of people who work there as being 'a kind of person who works at Walmart'.

But the fact is, that Walmart often employs disabled people to work at jobs like greeters. And this man didn't read social cues. So, it is likely that he may be disabled.

There is nothing wrong with that line of thinking whatsoever.
post #155 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
Ok, I'm getting tired of this, so I'll try to say it one last time, clearly.

What I try to teach my child is this:

No one gets to touch you without consent. If you don't consent, they should stop immediately.

HOWEVER. Most people who try to touch you without your consent are not trying to hurt you. Start with a firm "No, thanks" and move from there if they don't stop.

The starting point for this conversation is not screaming.

Please stop implying that I'm teaching my child to be polite INSTEAD of teaching him to protect himself. I'm trying to do both.

Please stop implying that I said that the OP's child should have told the old man "No thanks". I never said she should have had her hysterical, crying child do that. I was saying that if it had been me, I would have modeled a gentler approach to the situation, starting with a firm No thanks and going from there-- allowing my kid to witness and learn my approach to dealing with people getting in my/our personal space.

Please stop implying that those of us who value civility and politeness and respect for fellow human beings (clueless and rude as they might be) are delusional to risks to our children and are putting our kids at risk of abuse. We're not. We're teaching them life skills that will come in handy as they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people.

Here's where the respect thing comes in. I would not have handled the situation the way the OP did. In her post, she implied that she wondered if she'd handled the situation well. I told her what I thought. We clearly don't agree. I respect her right to deal with her kids and those situations any way she sees fit, though I do not have to agree with her approach. I would really appreciate it if those who do agree with her could extend the same courtesy to me/us who don't.
ITA.

We may disagree about appropriate responses to stressful situations, but we all want to protect our children and teach them to protect themselves. I've not read one post here where I've thought that the poster didn't 'get it' when it comes to child protection. We just differ on our opinion of the right way to handle difficult situations, and what our children might learn from a yelling response. Some see that as a positive lesson for a child, some of us see it as a negative one. But nobody is ignoring the issue of child protection or teaching their child to be polite at the expense of their safety.

I personally want my child to see me handle situations such as this firmly, decisively, and clearly, but not exhibiting fight or flight responses such as yelling. Aside from the fact that I think it is wrong and unnecessary to yell at a Walmart greeter, no matter if he's clueless, I think a 2 yo just learns fear from such an experience, and has no measure to know what justifies that fight or flight response in future. I would worry that my child would then not know who to fear next. I know my kids would have started worrying about every worker in every store after an experience where I yelled. But then, that's my kids, used to my way of dealing with stress, and my opinion. Others think that a 2 yo would take a good lesson from mum yelling - that you stand up for yourself and don't let anyone do anything to your body that you dislike.

Maybe there is no right or wrong answer. Our children don't learn self protection skills from just one incident. There are a myriad of different experiences that form our children's personalities and abilities to take care of themselves. We are all doing our best to instil these qualities and skills in our children, but we all take a different route to that end.
post #156 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
But that IS what the OP did. She didn't yell until the man had ignored "no" several times.
It seemed to me like she said "no thanks" initially when he offered the sticker, did her shopping, and then yelled at him when he approached DD the second time. I did not get where she said no "several times."
post #157 of 181
Has it occured to anyone that most child molesters don't get caught!!

I would not only have yelled, there would have been a physical encounter if anyone EVER tried to pry my child off my leg!!!!!!! Especially if I had already told that person once to stay away!! Just the thought gives me the creaps!! The world is full of phycos! A young child can not protect itself, I say well done to the OP for sticking up and protecting her child!!
post #158 of 181
Again, she didn't tell him to stay away. She told him "no thanks" when he offered DD a sticker. Unless he's a mind reader, I'm guessing he took that to mean, "No thanks, DD doesn't want a sticker right now," not "stay away from my children!"
post #159 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by homeschoolAK View Post
Has it occured to anyone that most child molesters don't get caught!!

I would not only have yelled, there would have been a physical encounter if anyone EVER tried to pry my child off my leg!!!!!!! Especially if I had already told that person once to stay away!! Just the thought gives me the creaps!! The world is full of phycos! A young child can not protect itself, I say well done to the OP for sticking up and protecting her child!!
I wish people would stop freaking out and talking about child molesters. Who said this man was a child molester? What if he was a misguided old man why do we immediately have to label him as a child molester?
post #160 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
It seemed to me like she said "no thanks" initially when he offered the sticker, did her shopping, and then yelled at him when he approached DD the second time. I did not get where she said no "several times."

She didn't yell when he approached her DD the second time, she yelled when he tried to take her daughter away from her, while her daughter was screaming no. He was ignoring the "no" that her daughter was clearly expressing. I don't really understand why anyone thinks a firm "no thank you" would work when her daughter clearly expressing her discomfort wasn't.
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