moral dilemma, and is there really any debate on this???

[spughy]

I was raised by dental professionals (my dad was a dentist and my mom a dental nurse) who spent most of my childhood going on about poor formula-fed kids and their messed up v-shaped palates, blah de blah. Then when *I* had a baby and was bombarded with all the kellymom stuff and Jack Newman stuff there was always a bit about how breastfeeding promoted proper palate development, and I always assumed that this was pretty common knowledge.

So, the other day after my husband got interested in ME getting interested in another thread, and bemoaned his own v-shaped palate, loads of dental work and teeth that were removed in his teens, he apparently told him mom that he'd found out that his dental problems were the result of him not being breastfed. (Or something. I don't know exactly what he said.)

And he came home and told me that his mother doesn't believe that any other than genetics determines dental stuff.

So... my question is, has there ever been a time when dentists didn't know that breastfeeding has an impact on oral cavity development??? 'Cause my dad did his dental studies in the 50's and apparently knew this, and Brian Palmer's articles reference some pretty old studies too. I was under the impression that this was a well-understood phenomenon that dentists at large knew about (assuming that MIL's beliefs stem from discussions with the dentist).

And my moral dilemma is - do I give her information that proves her wrong, or let it be? I don't want her thinking that I do things for DD just because MY parents said it was the way to go, I want her to know that the choices I make are informed by scientific evidence and reason. OTOH, she's been nothing but supportive of all our choices, so it's not like I have anything to actually gain from convincing her, since she's happy to go along with my "wacko-crazy" ideas apparently and humour me. So what if she thinks DD's perfect palate is entirely genetic?

I have a faint worry that my SIL might one day have a child and if she has difficulty BF'ing, MIL might - if not well-educated on the bennies - encourage her to stop. But it's a what-if, y'know? And frankly SIL is probably more likely to ask me for help than her. So... probably me printing out a Brian Palmer article and giving it to her would only make ME feel better, and would make her feel crappy, which I have no desire to do. But I have this lingering feeling that she doesn't take my concerns seriously, she humours me for political reasons. Should I just suck it up and let her go on thinking what she wants?

[Flor]

I guess I wouldn't address it until it became an issue like if you dh/MIL started telling you that you shouldn't breastfeed. I've heard plenty of dentist say that nighttime breastfeeding rots teeth, but I've never heard anyone say anything pro or con about palate development.

[KristyDi]

Let this one go. You'll only make your MIL think that you think she was a bad mother.

Deal directly w/ SIL if the situation ever arises.

[grniys]

Originally Posted by KristyDi

Let this one go. You'll only make your MIL think that you think she was a bad mother.

Deal directly w/ SIL if the situation ever arises.

I agree.

[Ruthla]

It could be that some dental schools in the '50's discussed breastfeeding and palate development, while others didn't. Or maybe some dentists learned about it but didn't think it was clinically significant. It's also quite possible that dentists KNEW this, but didn't share this information with patients- perhaps in an attempt to "not make them feel bad about FFing" especially for individuals who were done having kids.

There's no point in arguing this with your MIL- she's done having kids, and anybody she might influence to FF will be somebody who's likely to listen to you as well. As long as she's not pressuring you to wean, there's nothing to be gained by this conversation.

[ramama]

I wouldn't tell your MIL. That would just make her feel bad. And she probably won't believe any amount of proof that you come up with anyway, and it'll only damage your relationship with her. Just show your DH and SIL if it is ever necessary.

I always assumed that the dental community was fairly ignorant of the benefits of BFing since I hear all the time that night nursing equals cavities. I'm surprised to hear that that may not be the case. Interesting.

[tankgirl73]

I've no clue at all what role breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding has on palate development... never heard of that, and I've read a lot! Can you give more info, links to research, etc?

DH has a horrible mouth, very very narrow, had to have teeth removed because there wasn't room, etc. His mom was an early LLL leader and he nursed till he was over 2 years old. So.... ??

[weliveintheforest]

I would let this go unless she ever brings it up in conversation, and then I would offer an article.

tankgirl73 - breastfeeding helps, but is not the only factor in palate development. Your dh's would probably be even worse had he been bottlefed.

[spughy]

Thanks everyone... funny how I feel better about letting it go when I have peer support telling me it's the right thing to do. And FTR, my DD has weaned now, she just turned 3 (today in fact!) and she hasn't nursed in a couple of weeks - but MIL never even batted an eye about the "extended nursing", not even when DD backtracked and started night-nursing again at 22 mo. Once, when she was about a year (DD, not MIL) MIL asked when I would wean her, and I shrugged and said "when she's done, I guess" and that was it. So, it's not like I ever felt any pressure from her about it - but TBH it seemed more apathy (or a case of "well I'm sure Sarah's read all the stuff and she knows what she's doing") than actual approval.

tankgirl73, here's a good article by Palmer on this. It explains the mechanisms and current and anthropological evidence to support the theory.

[bluetoes]

Just curious if there could be a chicken/egg causation in this. In other words children with well formed mouths are easier to breastfeed than ones that aren't. So some will conclude that breastfeeding = well formed mouth.

I guess I think this because of my situation. Looking back on it my son's high palate probably created a lot of our breastfeeding problems rather than it being caused my not breastfeeding.

I am always a little dubious about people talking about x,y z thing causing bad teeth and messed up palates (unless we're talking about sugared drinks and candy). I sucked my thumb until the age of 7 with no ill effects and have very nice teeth naturally. I think it's a combination of things, including genetics, that determines teeth and mouth formation.

I also disagree those who talk about how nursing at night rots the teeth. A combination of a bit of teeth brushing and not giving sugary foods is more important.

[tanyalynn]

Just curious if there could be a chicken/egg causation in this. In other words children with well formed mouths are easier to breastfeed than ones that aren't. So some will conclude that breastfeeding = well formed mouth.

I guess I think this because of my situation. Looking back on it my son's high palate probably created a lot of our breastfeeding problems rather than it being caused my not breastfeeding.

But I think this is part of our culture of formula, that we've allowed knowledge to be lost. A hundred years ago (or any arbitrary time before non-breastfeeding choices were available), we wouldn't just allow a baby with a high palate to waste away, there would be multiple knowledgeable people around to help problem solve. I think one part of that is the knowledge we've lost on tongue ties--I've just recently been reading about them and it can be more subtle than I'd thought, and it often goes along with a high palate. I recently realized my son has a tongue tie (as do I), even though we didn't have pain nursing, or really any out-of-the-ordinary problems. The formula option made really recognizing tt less important and so I think, for the most part, it's rarely recognized unless it's really obvious. And other ways to help with high palate like cranial-sacral are rarely suggested because formula is the norm.

But I agree that at this point, kids with more palate or mouth issues are less likely to be breastfed because the obstacles to being successful are higher than they used to be and there are feasible options.

[southernmommie]

I think his mom was being defensive because she didn't know and therefore is in denial.

[Leilalu]

Originally Posted by tankgirl73

I've no clue at all what role breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding has on palate development... never heard of that, and I've read a lot! Can you give more info, links to research, etc?

DH has a horrible mouth, very very narrow, had to have teeth removed because there wasn't room, etc. His mom was an early LLL leader and he nursed till he was over 2 years old. So.... ??

There are many factors that come into play. While breastfeeding is always the best for baby, the mother can only pass on what her body has stores of and the nutrients she gets from foods she eats. If it ain't there, well... Our bodies can only make certain nutrients, and definitely not minerals.

So proper palate formation comes about mainly through nutrition. Even one generation of wrong eating can cause a bad palate.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by Leilalu

So proper palate formation comes about mainly through nutrition. Even one generation of wrong eating can cause a bad palate.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I believe that the forces inside the mouth day in & day out are what is going to influence the development of the palate the most. Otherwise, how would we have gotten this far - there were many times, I'm sure, in human history that we've gone w/o an ideal diet & yet the problems of our mouths currently are killing us, but didn't in the past. Also, what about areas of famine - are their mouths developing improperly, I'd like to see it somewhere before I believe it.

And, it's not just whether a child has been breastfed or not, and diet. If a child takes a pacifier, sucks on a sippy cup sometimes or a lot (depending on the person), sucks on thumb, something else, etc. Most of these things only happen in the Western world. So, even if a child was breastfed & had a relatively good diet, it's no guarantee if one or more of the above didn't happen too.

It is very interesting to me to see people who wholeheartedly believe in breastfeeding debate the development of the palate & the forces that effect its development. I've heard lots of "I wasn't BF'd & my palate is great" or "my child was BF'd for 4 years, took a pacifier too but that's not why he has braces now." The denial on this subject is very ingrained.

Sus

[spughy]

Originally Posted by mama24-7

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I believe that the forces inside the mouth day in & day out are what is going to influence the development of the palate the most. Otherwise, how would we have gotten this far - there were many times, I'm sure, in human history that we've gone w/o an ideal diet & yet the problems of our mouths currently are killing us, but didn't in the past. Also, what about areas of famine - are their mouths developing improperly, I'd like to see it somewhere before I believe it.

And, it's not just whether a child has been breastfed or not, and diet. If a child takes a pacifier, sucks on a sippy cup sometimes or a lot (depending on the person), sucks on thumb, something else, etc. Most of these things only happen in the Western world. So, even if a child was breastfed & had a relatively good diet, it's no guarantee if one or more of the above didn't happen too.

It is very interesting to me to see people who wholeheartedly believe in breastfeeding debate the development of the palate & the forces that effect its development. I've heard lots of "I wasn't BF'd & my palate is great" or "my child was BF'd for 4 years, took a pacifier too but that's not why he has braces now." The denial on this subject is very ingrained.

Sus

There is some truth to this, but nutrition DOES have an impact on any musculoskeletal development. We're talking vitamins & minerals, naturally occurring ones, and I think one of the reasons that palatal development issues are so widespread is the lack of those in modern diets... even in times of near-starvation for primitive pre-industrial societies would have been high in minerals - think a starvation diet of lean meats, or wild greens & tubers... lacking in *calories* but still high in bone-building calcium and other minerals. For the past 100 years or so though, starvation diets are likely to consist of cheap grains grown on poor soil.

Palmer and other anthropologists/dentists have found that in pre-industrial skeletal remains there were virtually NO v-shaped palates. I don't think you can pin it all on breastfeeding as Palmer does, although certainly it has a huge influence, but even he found that poor palate development was statistically greatly lessened in breastfed individuals, not eliminated.

But the point is, we're all discussing degree here, not the basic principle... the interaction between nutrition and breastfeeding and palate development we can debate until the cows come home, but I don't think there's any evidence that breastfeeding has NO influence on palate development, nor that such development is strictly governed by genetics.

[Leilalu]

Originally Posted by mama24-7

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I believe that the forces inside the mouth day in & day out are what is going to influence the development of the palate the most. Otherwise, how would we have gotten this far - there were many times, I'm sure, in human history that we've gone w/o an ideal diet & yet the problems of our mouths currently are killing us, but didn't in the past. Also, what about areas of famine - are their mouths developing improperly, I'd like to see it somewhere before I believe it.

And, it's not just whether a child has been breastfed or not, and diet. If a child takes a pacifier, sucks on a sippy cup sometimes or a lot (depending on the person), sucks on thumb, something else, etc. Most of these things only happen in the Western world. So, even if a child was breastfed & had a relatively good diet, it's no guarantee if one or more of the above didn't happen too.

It is very interesting to me to see people who wholeheartedly believe in breastfeeding debate the development of the palate & the forces that effect its development. I've heard lots of "I wasn't BF'd & my palate is great" or "my child was BF'd for 4 years, took a pacifier too but that's not why he has braces now." The denial on this subject is very ingrained.

Sus

I agree that many factors come into play here. However, we are essentially what we eat, and what generations have eaten before us. People need nutrients for survival and our health is either affected negatively or positively by what we eat. Bone structure is not exempt. Every part of our makeup is affected.

However, I see that several outside things can cause changes to a persons palate, which is why I said proper palate formation comes about mainly through nutrition.

[Can Dance]

that was a very interesting article. I wish that it included pictures however, I guess I am a visual learner and want to see what he is talking about.

I also think about my own teeth, I was an artificially fed infant from birth and the way I swallow is messed up, I had to have braces and I remember my ortho doing all these swallow tests with me. I know I swallow wrong, as well as mouth breath wrong.

I have been thinking a lot about this lately, i am glad this article was posted.

[PatioGardener]

Originally Posted by Can Dance

that was a very interesting article. I wish that it included pictures however, I guess I am a visual learner and want to see what he is talking about.

Here are his slides from his website:
http://brianpalmerdds.com/pdf/section_A.pdf

Lots of pictures

[Momily]

While I'm sure that breastfeeding has an impact on teeth and palate development, just like it does in so many areas, fighting with your MIL (who I assume is way past childbearing age, and is presumably not going to relactate for your husband) about it just seems like intentionally trying to hurt her and make her feel like she hurt her child, rather than doing what seemed like the best thing at the time with the information she had.

I also feel as though there are many many reasons for breastfeeding, some of which have much more compelling research behind them than dental formation, and I doubt that your SIL is going to make a decision this big based on the single fact that it might or might not effect the palate. If she becomes pregnant, feel free to give her all the information you have about the benefits of breastfeeding, but don't expect this to be the deciding factor.

I know for me, having had to formula feed, I worry much more about the long term effects on my child's immune system, than I do about his palate, but that might just be me, and that right there would have been enough to have motivated me to try really hard had breastfeeding been remotely feasible.

[StoriesInTheSoil]

I'd leave this one.

I don't think there's any harm in her being misinformed on this tiny issue if she's being so supportive everywhere else.

just my 2 cents