Easy Question for Jehovah's Witnesses - Page 4

[athansor]

Originally Posted by jackie75

The Apocrypha (meaning hidden) wasn't canonized by the Catholic Church until the council of Trent (the mid 1500's), after the reformation began.

Not all books of the Apocrypha are included in the Catholic Bible though.

The apocrypha was found to be not consistent with the rest of the old & New testament, so it is not included in non-catholic Bibles. Also worth mentioning is that these books are not mentioned or quoted in the Old testament or New testament.

Catholics believe it is part of the word of God. In general, Christians don't believe it is His word. Interesting reading about the history between the Old & New Testamnet, but not in harmony,theologically speaking, with all of the other books of the Bible.

I could say a lot more about it, but I don't feel like writing an essay right now on the canonization of scripture, lol.

If I remember right, though, the apocrypha was part of the Bible in the 1500's, then removed from the King James Bible in the mid 1800's). So, for non Catholics, was the apocrypha inspired scripture for the 350 years between the inclusion and the removal of these books from the Bible? I haven't seen one, but I'm wondering if a KJV bible from before 1850 or so had some kind of a disclaimer with those books, or if they were treated the same as all the other books of the Bible.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by angelpie545

So, according to them, how *is* one saved? I know that for Catholics, they believe that salvation occurs through faith and works, and most protestants and evangelicals believe that salvation occurs when on receives Jesus, or calls upon His name (some refer to being "born again"-I share this belief). So for Jehovah's witnesses, is there a prayer you must pray to be "saved"? Or, does simply joining their organization guarantee salvation? Also, what happens once someone is disfellowshipped? Have they lost their salvation? If so, that pretty much answers my question about whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses believe in eternal salvation. No snark involved, I'm honestly curious and would like to learn.

The concept of "saved" is a bit of a sketchy one for me because that term really wasn't used in the sense that I understand other Christian religions use it. (Not to say it isn't Christian.) There isn't a particular prayer, though all prayers close with "In Jesus' name," and joining the organization doesn't guarantee that you'll survive Armageddon.

You must go out in the ministry. If you have a disability, then you could write letters to people. (When really pinched for getting my time in, I'd pick out obituaries in the newspaper and write letters to the survivors telling them all about how they could see their loved ones in Paradise earth after Armageddon.) But you MUST proseltyze, and that is measured (by man) because you turn in time reports each month detailing how many hours you spent in the ministry, how many magazines or books you placed, etc. Children were somewhat exempted, but were expected to preach by around 8-10 years old.

I agree that you pretty much had to own up to major sins with the elders in the congregation. You could bring smaller stuff forth (I covet, or whatever), but if you were drinking to excess, fornicating or adultering, swearing, or having social association with non-believers, you'd better fess it up because you certainly didn't want to get dragged in to a private meeting with the elders afterwards.

Also, you pretty much had to stay faithful through Armageddon. It was presented as the ultimate test of our faith, where Satan would be so angry at being locked up that he'd do anything to turn Witnesses away from the path. It kind of came across to me that Armageddon would happen when the United Nations "finally" declared religion illegal, and the Witnesses would be pretty much the only ones who would stand against that. We would be pursued, thrown into concentration camps, tortured, etc. by the governments of the world. Throughout all that, our faith must stay intact.

I don't know if I'm really explaining salvation, but like I say, there isn't a parallel doctrine that I can call to mind.

[KestrelDream]

Originally Posted by athansor

If I remember right, though, the apocrypha was part of the Bible in the 1500's, then removed from the King James Bible in the mid 1800's). So, for non Catholics, was the apocrypha inspired scripture for the 350 years between the inclusion and the removal of these books from the Bible? I haven't seen one, but I'm wondering if a KJV bible from before 1850 or so had some kind of a disclaimer with those books, or if they were treated the same as all the other books of the Bible.

Awesome question! From what I understand, there was a lot of doubt about these books that were put in place after the 4th century. It was in the 1600's when people started to really put their foot down with including them with their Bibles, because, they just didn't mesh with the rest of scripture. King James wanted to omit them for years before the KJV came out from what I've read.

I just did some googling on the subject....& there's a lot out their on this. One thing I found interesting was there seemed to be caveats before that particular part of the Bible (??).

Very interesting, for sure, & something I would like to dig into more. It doesn't change my thoughts if the apocrypha is the word of God though. All one need to do is read it, & compare it with the rest of scripture. It just doesn't flow. We are talking about the dark ages here....many people relied on superstition & the church (Catholicism)....& didn't read the word for themselves....not a lot of educated people to stand up, & say, "Hey, that's not what the rest of scripture says!"

I have to say though....you guys ROCK! I like this forum!!

[KestrelDream]

But you MUST proseltyze, and that is measured (by man) because you turn in time reports each month detailing how many hours you spent in the ministry, how many magazines or books you placed, etc.

That sounds so stressful....yikes, I would be a basket case!! LOL!

I'm wondering where in the Bible says we have to report to our elders on how much we shared the faith?

I don't recall reading anything where we have to report to our "leaders".

Please understand that a typed message can come across cold & sarcastic....that's not my intent at all....I'm just questioning.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by jackie75

That sounds so stressful....yikes, I would be a basket case!! LOL!

I'm wondering where in the Bible says we have to report to our elders on how much we shared the faith?

I don't recall reading anything where we have to report to our "leaders".

Please understand that a typed message can come across cold & sarcastic....that's not my intent at all....I'm just questioning.

I don't think it does, but Jehovah's Witnesses and some others recognize the authority of writings that Protestants don't. Ex.- Catholics recognize the Apocrypha, Gnostics recognize the Gnostic writings, LDS recognize the Book of Mormon, etc. Some Protestants therefore say that those groups, including the JWs, are not Christians. However, they all revere Jesus and recognize him as "Christ" in one way or another. It is possible to revere Jesus and even to be fully Trinitarian (such as Roman Catholic) without limiting the recognized Scripture to the books that are included in the Protestant Bible. So if your definition of "Christian" is "only recognizing the books of the Protestant Bible," then only Protestants are Christians. If your definition is "revering Jesus as the Son of God in some way," then all the groups I listed are Christians.

However, it is disingenuous to challenge people of those denominations/ religions by saying "well, that isn't in the Bible so it isn't necessary." If they recognize other books that make it necessary, then it's necessary to their religion.

I am so NOT JW. I have absolutely no interest in ever being involved with that religion, I avoid religious discussion with DH's JW relatives, I have all kinds of problems with it. But I really want to make sure this discussion is intellectually honest.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by angelpie545

This has been a lively discussion. So, I'd like to ask another question, if I could. We've established what Jehovah's Witnesses believe concerning the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. A couple of posts back, however, someone mentioned that Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in salvation by faith/grace alone. So, according to them, how *is* one saved? I know that for Catholics, they believe that salvation occurs through faith and works, and most protestants and evangelicals believe that salvation occurs when on receives Jesus, or calls upon His name (some refer to being "born again"-I share this belief). So for Jehovah's witnesses, is there a prayer you must pray to be "saved"? Or, does simply joining their organization guarantee salvation? Also, what happens once someone is disfellowshipped? Have they lost their salvation? If so, that pretty much answers my question about whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses believe in eternal salvation. No snark involved, I'm honestly curious and would like to learn.

I would say that a Jehovah's Witness is never saved. They emphasize "works", not "faith", and often quote the scripture that says "faith without works is dead". There is a lot of emphasis on doing the works, and then "perhaps" you will be saved at Armageddon. There is never any guarantee of salvation. There was constant pressure to keep doing more "works". Regular preaching was the most important of the "works". One had to get at least one hour in a month to be regular, and they are encouraged to get about 10 hours a month. Also, regular meeting attendance (three meetings a week, total of five hours - back when I was going, but this is currently being parred down), commenting at meetings, and giving "talks" which for men are 5 minute speeches to the congregation and for women are 5 minute role playing skits in front of the congregation. The more works you do, the greater your chances of survival, but your survival is never guaranteed. Like I said, there is just constant pressure to do more and to do all you can.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by AlmostAPpropriate

Grace was completely foreign to me when I left the JW org. Yes, we were taught about grace but more like "by grace you have the chance to be saved" not " you are saved ".\

Exactly.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

I don't know if I'm really explaining salvation, but like I say, there isn't a parallel doctrine that I can call to mind.

I don't recall salvation every even being talked about. If I had Windows I'd look it up on the CD Rom, but Dh can only access that at work on where he has Windows. Maybe I'll give him a homework assignment on Monday

[jennica]

Originally Posted by jackie75

That sounds so stressful....yikes, I would be a basket case!! LOL!

I'm wondering where in the Bible says we have to report to our elders on how much we shared the faith?

I don't recall reading anything where we have to report to our "leaders".

Please understand that a typed message can come across cold & sarcastic....that's not my intent at all....I'm just questioning.

It was stressful for me, and I was a basket case

The bible does talk about going and confessing your sins, doesn't it? Isn't that why Catholics do confession? This is the same sort of thing, only punishments are actually handed down..

[jennica]

Originally Posted by lolar2

I don't think it does, but Jehovah's Witnesses and some others recognize the authority of writings that Protestants don't. Ex.- Catholics recognize the Apocrypha, Gnostics recognize the Gnostic writings, LDS recognize the Book of Mormon, etc. Some Protestants therefore say that those groups, including the JWs, are not Christians. However, they all revere Jesus and recognize him as "Christ" in one way or another. It is possible to revere Jesus and even to be fully Trinitarian (such as Roman Catholic) without limiting the recognized Scripture to the books that are included in the Protestant Bible. So if your definition of "Christian" is "only recognizing the books of the Protestant Bible," then only Protestants are Christians. If your definition is "revering Jesus as the Son of God in some way," then all the groups I listed are Christians.

However, it is disingenuous to challenge people of those denominations/ religions by saying "well, that isn't in the Bible so it isn't necessary." If they recognize other books that make it necessary, then it's necessary to their religion.

I am so NOT JW. I have absolutely no interest in ever being involved with that religion, I avoid religious discussion with DH's JW relatives, I have all kinds of problems with it. But I really want to make sure this discussion is intellectually honest.

The JW's don't have anything equivalent to the book of Mormon. I mean, they don't have any other book that is considered holy and on par with the bible. They believe that there is a group of men who are god's spokesmen or mouthpiece, and these men write books and provide direction for the rest of the group. These men claim that they are being directed by god to write this literature. The literature contains "new light" which is the current understanding and the direction given for the JW's. However, the literature is not without error, and they readily admit this. Since the men who write it are imperfect, they are not always going to get it correct. This is what "new light" is for, because the light changes over time. "New Light" is the current understanding, and the old literature with vastly different views is considered "old light" and JW's are discouraged from even reading it. They are strongly cautioned to be careful looking at old literature because it could stumble them due to it being the "old understanding" (and I'm talking about 40 or 50+ year old stuff). So, it isn't that JW's have another book besides the bible that they refer to, it is more that they have a group of men who are their leaders whom they follow the direction from as if this direction is coming directly from god. One way in which this direction is provided is through literature, but also through meetings and conventions.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by jennica

So, it isn't that JW's have another book besides the bible that they refer to, it is more that they have a group of men who are their leaders whom they follow the direction from as if this direction is coming directly from god. One way in which this direction is provided is through literature, but also through meetings and conventions.

Fair enough-- so that would be more analogous to LDS bishops?

[KestrelDream]

Originally Posted by lolar2

I don't think it does, but Jehovah's Witnesses and some others recognize the authority of writings that Protestants don't. Ex.- Catholics recognize the Apocrypha, Gnostics recognize the Gnostic writings, LDS recognize the Book of Mormon, etc. Some Protestants therefore say that those groups, including the JWs, are not Christians. However, they all revere Jesus and recognize him as "Christ" in one way or another. It is possible to revere Jesus and even to be fully Trinitarian (such as Roman Catholic) without limiting the recognized Scripture to the books that are included in the Protestant Bible. So if your definition of "Christian" is "only recognizing the books of the Protestant Bible," then only Protestants are Christians. If your definition is "revering Jesus as the Son of God in some way," then all the groups I listed are Christians.

However, it is disingenuous to challenge people of those denominations/ religions by saying "well, that isn't in the Bible so it isn't necessary." If they recognize other books that make it necessary, then it's necessary to their religion.

I am so NOT JW. I have absolutely no interest in ever being involved with that religion, I avoid religious discussion with DH's JW relatives, I have all kinds of problems with it. But I really want to make sure this discussion is intellectually honest.

I see your point. That leaves a lot of info out there though, & not all can be true....since they all see to clash. You get a God that was once a man, you get a Jesus that was created, you get a Jesus that is more of an illuminator, & if you tap into your inner wisdom, you too have that Christ illumination/divineness in you....

How do you know what is really true? How do you know what to believe? Cherry-pick from different sources, & if it gives you peace & makes you feel good, that's your "religion"?

God has given us free will, & we are free to believe what we want. For me, personally, I need to know WHAT I'm believing in, & WHY. I need more concrete answers....although I started off in my faith with just faith, I really needed to know for myself if the Bible was trustworthy, & indeed divine in origin, not just man-made. I needed to know the basics....who is God, Jesus, etc.

I'm sure I said this before, but, I don't go around calling people "non-Christians". I question if their belief system is Christian. Now, the term being a Christian & what it implies has many, many meanings. Is it just believing in Jesus? Or is it believing what he taught & what the Bible says?

I guess, it really doesn't matter in the long run anyway what we think a true Christian is. It's about a relationship with Him & putting our trust in Him to guide us through our biggest questions. If we have that relationship with Him, we can be sure of our salvation, know peace, & He will not lead us astray.

To me, it's wonderful I have the Bible as my final authority on matters, that I can trust what it says. Otherwise, I really have no guidance for my faith, & I would be lost.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Fair enough-- so that would be more analogous to LDS bishops?

From what I understand of the LDS, I would say that yes, they are analogous. The JWs don't have a Prophet though, per se. I believe the Watchtower Society (which consists of the big decision makers, plus the "corporation" of the JWs) has a president, but he isn't given a particular religious weight. I wouldn't know who the president of the WTS has been at any given point in time, but I did actually know the name of the former Prophet of the LDS (Gordon Hinckley) until he died recently. So it's a little more anonymous.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by jackie75

I guess, it really doesn't matter in the long run anyway what we think a true Christian is.

Just trying to relate things to the thread title!

[hollyvangogh]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

From what I understand of the LDS, I would say that yes, they are analogous. The JWs don't have a Prophet though, per se. I believe the Watchtower Society (which consists of the big decision makers, plus the "corporation" of the JWs) has a president, but he isn't given a particular religious weight. I wouldn't know who the president of the WTS has been at any given point in time, but I did actually know the name of the former Prophet of the LDS (Gordon Hinckley) until he died recently. So it's a little more anonymous.

It's not as simple as that. Bishops are the leaders of local congregations or "Wards." Bishops can receive revelation from God but only as it pertains to leading that local congregation (so they can't receive a revelation that an individual should do for a profession, or whom they should marry - those are matters between the individual and the Lord). And they cannot give direction that contradicts the official doctrines of the Church.

The current Prophet is Thomas S. Monson.

And while yes, we believe the Prophet receives revelation, just like prophets in the Bible. We are expected to pray about and receive our own confirmations of what they teach us.

This explains really well how the Church is organized and run.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by hollyvangogh

It's not as simple as that. Bishops are the leaders of local congregations or "Wards." Bishops can receive revelation from God but only as it pertains to leading that local congregation (so they can't receive a revelation that an individual should do for a profession, or whom they should marry - those are matters between the individual and the Lord). And they cannot give direction that contradicts the official doctrines of the Church.

Monson, that's right. Beg your pardon about the rest of it--JW elders do not (at least, never to my knowledge) receive revelations.

[Tookery]

Jehovah's Witnesses

Hi ladies,

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I've enjoyed reading your forum. I wanted to answer some questions that have gone unanswered; I hope people are still reading.

I first want to assure you that Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT recognize other writings as inspired than the Protestants do. We do not accept the gnostic writings or the apocraphyl books. We believe in the exact same canon as Protestants. Like someone said at the very beginning of the discussion, be sure someone is actually a JW before trusting anything they say about JWs!

As far as salvation goes, Jackie75, the truth is, I have no idea whether or not you will be saved, although I certainly hope you will be. Being part of the JW organization does not guarantee individual salvation. There could very well be sick, evil people who are JWs and wonderful, faithful people who are not. Only Jehovah and Jesus know who will be saved. Anyone who tells you any different doesn't know what JWs really believe.

If we do our utmost to follow the Bible and live according to God's commandments, we show love for him and can have confidence in our salvation. But no one knows anyone well enough to say "you'll be saved." "You won't." It's playing judge, and God's word doesn't give us that right.

Jehovah's Witnesses accept everything the Bible says about salvation, including Jesus' words at Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." (ESV, Protestant approved translation). Simply professing a belief in Christ does not guarantee salvation, as Jesus clearly explains at Matthew 7:21-23. Furthermore, as James states, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). Therefore, eventhough it's only through faith in Jesus sacrifice that we can be saved, that faith must be accompanied by works and must encompass a person's whole mind, spirit, heart, and strength (Mark 12:29).

We also believe in what Paul describes as the "resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" (Acts 24:15) which means we believe individuals who never got to know Christ might be given the opportunity to do so. On the other hand, most Protestants believe that anyone who doesn't personally know Jesus is damned to hell...which I think is not only unscriptural, but it paints God in a very unjust light. How could he eternally punish a farmer who lived in China in 200 B.C. who never knew anything about Jesus?

Oh yeah, and you don't HAVE to preach. To be considered an "active" Witness, you do, (much like you can't be divorced to be considered an "active" Catholic) but you are certainly not disfellowshipped for not preaching. Sharing God's word must be motivated by love for him and others, not fear of man. We report our time and efforts in the ministry to encourage one another and to follow the example set by Jesus and his disciples in the first century.

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstandings you may have about us. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, anytime!

My email is [e-mail] and I live in the Pittsburgh area.

Take care and I love that you ask questions. I will never think you're rude. Trust me, compared to most people I meet in the ministry, you're quite the opposite. Plus, I haven't always been a JW, so I get how offensive we all can seem!

[KestrelDream]

Originally Posted by Tookery

Hi ladies,

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I've enjoyed reading your forum. I wanted to answer some questions that have gone unanswered; I hope people are still reading.

I first want to assure you that Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT recognize other writings as inspired than the Protestants do. We do not accept the gnostic writings or the apocraphyl books. We believe in the exact same canon as Protestants. Like someone said at the very beginning of the discussion, be sure someone is actually a JW before trusting anything they say about JWs!

As far as salvation goes, Jackie75, the truth is, I have no idea whether or not you will be saved, although I certainly hope you will be. Being part of the JW organization does not guarantee individual salvation. There could very well be sick, evil people who are JWs and wonderful, faithful people who are not. Only Jehovah and Jesus know who will be saved. Anyone who tells you any different doesn't know what JWs really believe.

If we do our utmost to follow the Bible and live according to God's commandments, we show love for him and can have confidence in our salvation. But no one knows anyone well enough to say "you'll be saved." "You won't." It's playing judge, and God's word doesn't give us that right.

Jehovah's Witnesses accept everything the Bible says about salvation, including Jesus' words at Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." (ESV, Protestant approved translation). Simply professing a belief in Christ does not guarantee salvation, as Jesus clearly explains at Matthew 7:21-23. Furthermore, as James states, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). Therefore, eventhough it's only through faith in Jesus sacrifice that we can be saved, that faith must be accompanied by works and must encompass a person's whole mind, spirit, heart, and strength (Mark 12:29).

We also believe in what Paul describes as the "resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" (Acts 24:15) which means we believe individuals who never got to know Christ might be given the opportunity to do so. On the other hand, most Protestants believe that anyone who doesn't personally know Jesus is damned to hell...which I think is not only unscriptural, but it paints God in a very unjust light. How could he eternally punish a farmer who lived in China in 200 B.C. who never knew anything about Jesus?

Oh yeah, and you don't HAVE to preach. To be considered an "active" Witness, you do, (much like you can't be divorced to be considered an "active" Catholic) but you are certainly not disfellowshipped for not preaching. Sharing God's word must be motivated by love for him and others, not fear of man. We report our time and efforts in the ministry to encourage one another and to follow the example set by Jesus and his disciples in the first century.

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstandings you may have about us. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, anytime!

My email is [e-mail] and I live in the Pittsburgh area.

Take care and I love that you ask questions. I will never think you're rude. Trust me, compared to most people I meet in the ministry, you're quite the opposite. Plus, I haven't always been a JW, so I get how offensive we all can seem!

This begs the question though. Do you believe in the Bible, or the NWT...the Bible that JW's has made? There are very distinct differences between the two.

As for salvation, is it not a process for JW's? As Christians, we are assured of our salvation. From the beginning. It is our faith, not works. Abraham believed in God, & it was counted unto him as righteousness. Before he even circumcised the baby!!

What if your are disfellow shipped from the organization? Can you be saved outside of it, now?....

You know what though...to truly answer that question we have to dig deep into JW's eschatology. It gives me a headache.

According to your beliefs...the perfect earth will still have questioning individuals, & you have a lot of time to educate them with the JW doctrine.

Cripe. Isn't that what the Bible is for? To educate us? Those in Christendom may have differing views of the exact timeline of when Christ comes back, but the point is...we DON"T GET A SECOND CHANCE LIKE THE JW"S PREACH.

Lets face it. This group, like many others, is isolationists, thinking they have the only truth.

With basic Christianity....we all agree with the important things. This group is the only that has the truth. Just like the Mormons. Or United Pentecostals, or pick your denomination that makes such claims.

I'm a born again Christian. I hold to no group. Some denominations are a bit out their on their teaching....but we all hold the same basics. Little things don't matter...it's the biggies...who God is, who Jesus is (yes, he is GOD according to the Bible, if I have to I will post a reply on that whole subject) & the Holy spirit is a PERSON, not a FORCE.

We have to step outside of that & ask why? Why does my church, group, whatever teach this? SEARCH. Don't blindly follow....I mean search outside the box.

Personally, I love my NIV study Bible. It is so straight to the point it hurts!! The notes are from Christians from ALL denominations who differ on certain views. But, it makes me search more.....I used to be in the majority, a premillennialist dispensationalist, but I am more of a partial preterist now.....really searching what history has taught us, & the correlation with Matthew 24. It's awesome to be challenged!! Our God is AWESOME! The Bible is alive!!

I'm probably misquoting here, but I love this saying...."The biggest theological heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of God".

As I had said so many times....the Bible says who He is, who Jesus is, & who the Holy spirit is. If we trust the Bible....again, not a Bible that is written for a certain group...then shouldn't we trust what it says who God is? Who he saves?

I'm saved. I have that peace. God shows me everyday. Not with condemnation, but with love, & freedom.

My Christmas tree looks beautiful too......but I'm not worshipping it.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by Tookery

We believe in the exact same canon as Protestants.

Not the exact same one, the NWT, which has some significant differences.

Originally Posted by Tookery

As far as salvation goes, Jackie75, the truth is, I have no idea whether or not you will be saved, although I certainly hope you will be. Being part of the JW organization does not guarantee individual salvation. There could very well be sick, evil people who are JWs and wonderful, faithful people who are not. Only Jehovah and Jesus know who will be saved. Anyone who tells you any different doesn't know what JWs really believe.

Your saying you hope Jackie75 will be saved, but be specific, how can she be saved? Is what you're "hoping" for that she will find the "truth" and be baptized as a JW, and then be saved? Or are you saying that some non-JW's who have been preached to and reject the religion still have the possibility of being saved, as you understand the JW beliefs? You also say that being a JW doesn't guarantee salvation, but I think that was already pointed out. Not all JW's will survive according to them, only the good ones.

Originally Posted by Tookery

If we do our utmost to follow the Bible and live according to God's commandments, we show love for him and can have confidence in our salvation. But no one knows anyone well enough to say "you'll be saved." "You won't." It's playing judge, and God's word doesn't give us that right.

JW's believe that one has to follow the bible as interpreted by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. In addition to biblical commandments, members must also follow the Watchtower's rules to obtain salvation. These rules are often inconsistent and not biblically based. As one example, the Watchtower forbids celebrating birthdays since at the two birthdays in the bible something bad happened, yet it doesn't forbid it's members from owning dogs even though they are mentioned over 40 times in the bible and are always mentioned in a bad light.

Originally Posted by Tookery

Therefore, eventhough it's only through faith in Jesus sacrifice that we can be saved, that faith must be accompanied by works and must encompass a person's whole mind, spirit, heart, and strength (Mark 12:29).

And this is another example of why only JW's can obtain salvation. The "works", as interpreted by the Watchtower Bible and Tract society, are: preaching, personal study, attending meetings, giving talks, and commenting at meetings. They are all JW specific tasks.

Originally Posted by Tookery

On the other hand, most Protestants believe that anyone who doesn't personally know Jesus is damned to hell...which I think is not only unscriptural, but it paints God in a very unjust light. How could he eternally punish a farmer who lived in China in 200 B.C. who never knew anything about Jesus?

How could he kill the innocent children of non-believers in Armageddon? This is a belief that the JW's hold. Are you telling me you don't find that unjust? It's not unjust that god will soon kill billions of people and not even allow a proper burial for all the corpses? And they are condemned to death simply because they did not choose to follow the JW teachings? Do you consider that just?

Originally Posted by Tookery

Oh yeah, and you don't HAVE to preach. To be considered an "active" Witness, you do, (much like you can't be divorced to be considered an "active" Catholic) but you are certainly not disfellowshipped for not preaching. Sharing God's word must be motivated by love for him and others, not fear of man. We report our time and efforts in the ministry to encourage one another and to follow the example set by Jesus and his disciples in the first century.

But, the numbers reported in the JW yearbook are that of active (preaching) members only. Members who do not preach are not counted or reported as being a member of the religion. To be counted and reported to the public as being a Jehovah's Witness by it's leaders, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, you must actively preach. Being disfellowshipped does not erase you from any roles or membership, being inactive does that. Being disfellowshipped is simply an instruction to the congregation to shun that member.

Originally Posted by Tookery

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstandings you may have about us. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, anytime!

My email is [e-mail] and I live in the Pittsburgh area.

Take care and I love that you ask questions. I will never think you're rude. Trust me, compared to most people I meet in the ministry, you're quite the opposite. Plus, I haven't always been a JW, so I get how offensive we all can seem!

Thanks for adding to our discussion. I just wonder if anyone contacts you, will you be counting your time for that?

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by jennica

Thanks for adding to our discussion. I just wonder if anyone contacts you, will you be counting your time for that?

Why wouldn't she?