Facing a confrontation...

[BekahMomToOliver]

Hi everyone, I'm new to these boards and to the whole vax debate. Before my son was born I worked in daycare and wondered why some parents refused to vax their kids. Of course, now that I have my own babe I know better and I'm so, so hesitant now.
Oliver was 2 months old when he first saw our family doctor, and it was my first time meeting her too. We discussed his birth and his health since (my midwives took great care of us up to that point, so there were no issues), and then she tentatively mentioned vaccines. She seemed really relieved when we said that despite our hesitations, we wanted him on a normal schedule. Like, reeeeeally relieved. I totally got the vibe that she was trying to see if I was one of those "crazy" : moms . Anyway, we had a long discussion about shots and she promised me there was no increased risk of SIDS or autism. I bought it because I trusted her to know the facts, and a month later (she agreed to delay his shots a bit "to make it easier on his little body") he had his first round of shots.
It was awful. I sobbed. My gut instinct was that she was injecting my babe with poison, hurting him with more than just the sting of the shot. I knew it was all wrong!! He seemed fine, but three hours later we were at Emerg with a shrieking, miserable, hurting child with a bump on his leg the size of a tennis ball It was awful. Just awful.
The only good part is, she no longer wanted to vax him! (sorta...)
She referred us to a specialist to give him individual doses in an emergency room at a children's hospital, so they could see what he was reacting to. We never went, to be honest I never tried very hard to get an appointment. It's hard for us to get there (we don't own a car) and I don't want him on a regular schedule anyway. Also, when this happened I learned a bit about our family history, and found out that all my sisters had reacted so badly to the tetanus shot that a doctor had ordered my mom to never allow them to have it unless it was a matter of life or death.
Wow, sorry this post is so long.... I'll get to the point:
I've put off talking too much about it with her so far. I usually go all passive and nod my head until it's time to go, then do my own AP thing. I know this isn't really fair but I just don't like arguing with people about it. My sister Vaxs and any time I mention that the flu shot might not be a great idea for her 11 month old, it seems she gets all argumentative and I don't really know enough about the issues to argue my defense. I just end up feeling stupid and like a bad mom and/or paranoid. I got asked the other day, talking about car seats, if maybe I'm doing too much reading online and looking too much into this stuff. I feel it will be the same with this doctor.
Anyway, it came up again at his 12 month WBV. She's going to organize an appointment for us with the specialist, and then she said something that chilled me to the core: "Once we've found out what the trouble is, we'll fast-track the rest of his shots to get him caught up."
This WILL NOT happen. I don't know what, if any, vaccines I want him to have, or when, but I sure as heck won't be pumping his little body full of extra doses of heavy metals and crap the moment we get the go ahead. I don't even want to get him tested, but at the same time I'm genuinely scared of him getting sick. I work in daycare (going back to work in two weeks), and I'm scared I'll bring something home. We want to selectively vax, and delay it more, that's for sure. I don't know how to approach this, or how we could selectively vax without seeing the specialist. Plus, I'm scared that with our family history he could be deathly allergic to a vaccine.
Help!! How do I spproach this? I thought about bringing in some Mothering articles I have about Aluminum and Thimerisol (sp?) but I don't want to seem like I think she's ignorant or anything.
Any ideas? I know this is going to keep me up tonight... I don't want to hurt my baby!!!:
TIA.

[N8'sMom]

Can you switch docs or just go "when" you need to and forgo the
well baby visits?
We dont' even do well baby visits. I feel like it's a waste of time and money.
I can weigh and measure her here and we don't vax...so what's the point?

[BekahMomToOliver]

Thanks for your quick reply!
I don't know though... I really like her as a family doctor, even though we have totally different philosophies on parenting. Plus, it would be soooo tough to get a new family doc. We're in Ontario so although we have our health care covered cost-wise, family doctors are in super short supply and we're rural, so no walk-in clinics. I'd like to try and keep her as a doctor but we just don't see eye-to-eye on much when it comes to raising kids. We cosleep, she loves Babywise - that kinda thing. She was sooooo happy today when she heard Oliver stopped nursing, I'm heartbroken and I definitely don't think "he was just ready". I think I just have to be a little more assertive, but I'm scared she'll convince me I'm wrong or be offended...

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by BekahMomToOliver

I'm genuinely scared of him getting sick. I work in daycare (going back to work in two weeks), and I'm scared I'll bring something home. We want to selectively vax, and delay it more, that's for sure. I don't know how to approach this, or how we could selectively vax without seeing the specialist. Plus, I'm scared that with our family history he could be deathly allergic to a vaccine.

TIA.

It's hard to be in a state of fear. Very emotionally draining. I _thought_ we'd be doing a s/d schedule, but the more I learn about keeping my kids healthy and the more I expand my toolbox of things to do when they get sick, the less I even think about the fact that my 2yo is unvaccinated. He was in daycare, himself, starting at age 4 months. More illnesses do go around, but as far as I know, we never encountered a vaccine-available disease, and learning about how to treat illnesses means the no-vaccine-available illnesses went a lot easier on us.

With your family history, the next time you see your doc, I'd just say hey, talked with the family, we have a significant history of bad reactions, we're not doing this until school-age (you could say never, but say what you think is easiest). We don't do WBVs anymore, but I had to slowly get comfortable with that.

It's okay to not like confrontations, they're very draining and stressful, at least to me. But it's okay to avoid the situation altogether until you feel in a better place.

[Pariah]

I just wouldn't go, at least for a long time, to be honest. I get such a bad vibe about your doctor from your post, haha...I've never had that reading here before, it is strange.

With your family history, the next time you see your doc, I'd just say hey, talked with the family, we have a significant history of bad reactions, we're not doing this until school-age (you could say never, but say what you think is easiest).

That's what I would do, if you have no option of getting another doctor. Just say you're not doing them, get your baby weighed, etc., and leave. If she gives you any problems, you can walk out if you feel uncomfortable. I wouldn't bring articles to try and prove your point...most doctors just brush those off.

I think I just have to be a little more assertive, but I'm scared she'll convince me I'm wrong or be offended...

Don't worry about offending her. Not that I'm suggesting you be totally rude to her or anything, but your baby needs to come first, and if refusing vaccines or anything else hurts this woman's feelings, then she'll have to deal with that on her own.

[Deborah]

Could you find a supportive friend or relative to come to the appointment with you?

I second not trying to change the doctor's mind. Go with the bad reactions in the family line. And your direct experience of a bad reaction supports that.

Do research childhood illnesses and how to treat them. Get a good, alternatively oriented book through your local library. Once you've decided if you like it you can buy your own copy.

[peainthepod]

Originally Posted by Pariah

I just wouldn't go, at least for a long time, to be honest. I get such a bad vibe about your doctor from your post, haha...I've never had that reading here before, it is strange.

Glad I'm not the only one! Wanting to "fast track" the rest of his vaccinations after he had a nasty reaction is irresponsible at best. And I find it downright creepy that she was so excited you stopped BFing. Any doctor worth a damn should encourage BFing or at least tolerate it. :

Anyway, your son's health comes before your fear of offending this woman, doctor or not. Period. I know how you feel about confrontations--I hate them too--but this is so much more important than anything else. Don't be afraid to put her off, skip the well baby visits, cancel your appointments, whatever it takes, until you've done your research and are 100% comfortable with a vaccine schedule (if any) that works for your family. You can always give a vaccine but you can never take one back.

[Pariah]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

Glad I'm not the only one! Wanting to "fast track" the rest of his vaccinations after he had a nasty reaction is irresponsible at best. And I find it downright creepy that she was so excited you stopped BFing. Any doctor worth a damn should encourage BFing or at least tolerate it. :

I agree...none of that sounds right to me. And yes, fast tracking vaxes after a reaction just screams bad idea to me. Do not want!

[anewmama]

Tested?

How? Just how do they "test" for which shot? I would ask her this and see what kind of an answer she comes up with. Just for the "fun" of it. When I asked my last ped about what do they do if a child does have a reaction he said they refer to testing but he got a blank look when I pressed him more on just what they do.

[Devaskyla]

I'd guess they 'test' by giving the shots one at a time & seeing which one(s) the kid reacts to. Really scientific, helpful & not in the least likely to result in serious problems.

OP, I *highly* reccommend you get your hands on "How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of your Doctor".

[just_lily]

You can skip well baby visits, without quitting the whole practice. I am in Alberta, so I totally understand how hard it can be to get a family doctor. Just go in when you have a specific reason, only talk about the reason why you are there, and if she brings up vaxes just say you are still looking in to it.

Being in Ontario, you will have to file an exemption if your child goes to public school. It should be easy though, as Health Canada has stated that mandatory vaccination is unconstitutional. You can find the form you need here (bookmark it for later): http://www.vran.org/legal/forms.htm

I really suck at confrontation too, but the more I research the more comfortable I am talking about the reasons why we aren't vaxing.

[philia]

Ask the Dr. to call you at home

I did this and was more confident and our conversation was not emotional or confrontational. I would say until I feel more comforable with vaccines that you just have to put the brakes on. You would like to keep her as a Dr. and do one well baby a year and sick appts only. My Dr. said that I was putting my baby at risk for the diseases I did not vaccinate for but that there was nothing out there to say what the effects of the current vaccine schedule are either. I am talking about long term effects . You obviously have trouble with short term. You know what the right thing to do is and that is to do nothing for right now and maybe forever. I am terrible with confrontation. I hope your Dr. honors your request.

[grahamsmom98]

She's going to organize an appointment for us with the specialist, and then she said something that chilled me to the core: "Once we've found out what the trouble is, we'll fast-track the rest of his shots to get him caught up."

She's going to...

We'll fast-track

NO, NO, NO!!!!!

Girl, YOU are the parent and the doctor works for you. You do NOT need to do what she says! You may not like confrontation, but if you have carried a child then it proves, medically, you have a spine. Now, straighten up, use that backbone Nature gave you and say, "This is my child, my decision, END. OF. STORY." You do not need to give her your reasons. Your child, your choice.

You are, rightfully, scared of the vaccinations. But, you needn't be so afraid of the diseases they are supposed to prevent!

Most of these are the same ones that all children had as part of childhood. Measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella. Sure, they can be serious, but with good nutrition, common sense and modern medical treatment, IF there is a complication, make the "need" for vaccinations, in my opinion, ridiculous.

My son, at age 7 months, received the following at his well-baby visit, because, at that time, we still believed the line that doctors gave us about the need for such things: OPV (oral polio vaccine, yup, it was still being used in 1999), HepB, DPT and Hib.

He had just passed, with flying colours (I was so proud), his physical exam. He was ahead of schedule on everything and the doctor was glowing. Though he was telling me we could start solids, I ignored this piece of advice with a smile, knowing we were going to hold off solids for awhile longer, based on personal feelings.

And so, the doctor left and the nurse came in, bearing her steel tray with various hypodermics on it. She gave him his oral dose of polio vaccine and then BAM-BAM-BAM, two shots in one thigh and one in the other.

His reaction was swift and frightening. Within 30 SECONDS of receiving these vaccines, he went into anaphalactic shock. Lost consciousness, no blood pressure, blue-gray skin, stopped breathing.

They resusitated him with who-knows-what in more shots (the meds were never listed on the medical record, but then, neither was the reaction). A routine 20 minute well-baby check turned into several hours of fear. Our doctor simply said, "Don't worry, sometimes, these things happen. You have a fainter! He'll be fine."

I'd never heard of babies fainting from shots, but I knew that adults sometimes did, so maybe it happened with infants? And, what happened was certainly NOT fainting. But, good little person that I was, I didn't question the great and mighty doctor about his diagnosis.

We were finally allowed to leave, with the dark advice to stay in town for awhile longer and head to the ER if he had any additional symptoms... As though I needed to be instructed to do that.

Fortunately, for us, he recovered, though he slept all the way home (2 hour drive) and was fitful that night. In the long run, no lasting problems. He hasn't been vaxxed since.

Shortly after that, we mentioned what had happened to a friend. She said that it sounded like a vaccine reaction (we had never heard of such a thing). She pointed us in the direction of research, and we began our journey into the world of medical journals (JAMA and Lancet), the WHO, CDC and NIH websites. We read pharmaceutical journals and reference books (PDR). We spoke with other doctors (not much help, actually as they depend on the pharma reps for most of their info, and Docs only get about three hours of education on vaccines in med school), pharma reps (those guys are a joke, they are salesmen, nothing more) and even veterinarians (don't laugh, they successfully ordered mercury removed from animal vaccines years ago!). We read books, magazines and scanned the Internet sites, pro-, anti-, and on-the-fence.

In the end, it was obvious as to what our choice was. The most natural one.

No more vaccinations, for any of us.

For us, it was an easy decision. No more poisons in our child. See, it isn't just mercury. It's the host of other KNOWN toxins and carcinogenic ingredients (aluminum, formaldehyde, anti-freeze, fetal stems cells, ANIMAL cells and more).

Diseases aren't the scary things they used to be. Better health (and, health care) and cleaner environments have much to do with this. Even the diseases that are routinely used to try to fear us into vaxxing are not as bad as they are made out. My parents are both 85. They remember polio epidemics that hit both coasts (Dad in the East, Mom out West) when they were kids and adults. Many of their friends contracted polio. But, you know what? None of their aquaintances suffered long-term effects. Many had polio and never even knew it. We have one friend that did contract it in Africa, in 1956. She spent some time in an iron lung, in Morocco, where the medical care was certainly not the best. But, she survived and is fine today (a vital 83 year old).

I am 46. I had measles as a child. I had rubella, whooping cough, scarlet fever (NO vaccine for that one!), chicken pox and mumps, as well. So did all my siblings (there are 4 of us). We came through all of them fine. My dh had these same ones, save for the scarlet fever. Our parents had them, too.

Yes, ALL of us ARE continually bombarded with environmental hazards, as many like to remind us, pollution in so many forms, radiation, bacteria & viruses, the current administration...

Some of these hazards we can't control: we drive cars and buy groceries and live in a house and wear purchased clothes that are not necessarily 100% organic cotton (and we didn't vote for the guy in the White House)!

We are not in a bubble, however, nor is our son. Being homeschooled, he goes everywhere with me. He is exposed to disease in the environment everyday (as are all of us), including two attempts to "make" him catch chicken pox by exposing him to children that had it. No good, he remains "pox-less! He is now 10. Each year, he gets one cold which tends to last 3-4 days, tops. Last Spring, he caught the mumps (we've no idea where that happened) and felt crappy for a week. His immune system is strong enough without the dubious "benefit" of vaccines.

Should he receive another of the vaccines he got at 7 months, we would probably lose him permanently. See, subsequent reactions are always worse. There is no way to test him as to which caused it. It was probably the pertussis component of the DTP, as that is the worst in the bunch.

We have been refused as potential patients be multiple physicians' offices because of our no-vax decision (even in light of it being MEDICAL in nature!). Other offices have said, we'd have to vaccinate, and they'd just be ready for a reaction. Yeah, right........ (sound familiar?)

We stopped well-child checks, as well, after his reaction. There didn't seem to be much point since he was not getting any vaccinations. Afterall, I was perfectly capable of measuring him and checking various sources to see how he was progressing. Happy to say, he's survived just fine without those journeys to see the all-powerful physicians!

We finally found a wonderful physician that practices both mainstream and alternative medicine. He respects what the parent wishes. He doesn't even "do" vaccinations (if you want them, he'll write a scrip and you have to go to the health department to get the actual shot(s)). He encourages nursing for as long as possible and loves co-sleeping. His daughter, also a doctor, is in his practice with him and feels the same way. She even reads Mothering!!

You must remember, NO VACCINE IS 100% GUARANTEED EFFECTIVE OR SAFE. So, just because you were immunized, you could/can still contract a disease. It may allow you a milder case, but it is still the disease.

She referred us to a specialist to give him individual doses in an emergency room at a children's hospital, so they could see what he was reacting to.

NO! PLEASE do NOT do this!!! Subsequent reactions are always worse!!! She is fully admitting there is a problem with your child and vaccines and is passing the buck to another physician to deal with. There is NO way to "test" this problem without risking your child's life. Notice she said it is the emergency room? That, in itself, tells of the risk she KNOWS is real. It's NOT "so they could see what he was reacting to" it's so they can be prepared for the actual reaction, which could mean necessary life-saving measures.

If your child had an adverse reaction to, say, an antibiotic or a topical treatment, would you let them give it to your child again?? You'd say you were not going to submit your child to such a reaction once more, right? Well, this is no different. Think of the pain your child suffered, is it worth repeating because the doctor says you have to? Especially if the next time could be far, far worse?

If your child had been physically assaulted an multiple ways, would YOU allow him to be hurt again, in individual ways, so you could see just what it was that harmed him from that first attack?

No.

This "specialist" (what does she mean by that? What are his/her credentials?) WILL talk you into doing this if you go.

If it sounds like I'm trying to scare you, I am. It isn't her child, is it?

She was sooooo happy today when she heard Oliver stopped nursing

Why was she so happy? It's none of her business. What difference would it make to her? There is no medical reason to wean, when both Mom and child are healthy and it is working for both. I don't know the reasons your child stopped nursing and it is none of my business. Nor, is it her business!!! ((I stopped nursing my son when he was aged 4 1/2 YEARS of age. Think what your doc would have made of that!!))

Please, dear girl, skip these well-baby visits and start your education. Don't bring articles from magazine (unless it is in JAMA or Lancet) to this doctor. SHE will pull out books and point to diplomas on her wall and remind little, non-confrontational you of HER education and will easily argue her points and refute everything you will try to say. Nothing you can say will change her mind, trust me. In fact, she sounds like the type that will be antagonized by your questioning of "facts". In her mind, you need to be the docile, meek sheep that listens to her wisdom and follows her advice. Baa-baa-baa..............

Don't be a sheep and don't let your child be her sacrificial lamb.

Remember, once you put in those vaccines, they are IN. You can't take them out.

[loveyourohana]

I would call the office and make sure she contacted VAERS... if she hasn't... well, that just tells you exactly where the priority is. Saying they would catch your child up? That already tells me your child is not the first priority, and same witht he reaction with the breast feeding. Find a non vax friendly doctor.

My son reacted too... I had a hard time with confrontation too... but, once I did it (knowing full well he was a gonner on the next set) I realized, I had nothing to fear. It was soooo much easier than I ever thought.

Remember this as well...

What good does it do to give your baby shots at the ER... there is not a whole lot they can do if your baby reacts badly! They can't reverse an adverse reaction, nor can they promise to cure any major damage it would cause.

I am all with Dr. Moulden in Canada... I would love to see him get in... just for this reason alone.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by BekahMomToOliver

She was sooooo happy today when she heard Oliver stopped nursing, I'm heartbroken and I definitely don't think "he was just ready". I think I just have to be a little more assertive, but I'm scared she'll convince me I'm wrong or be offended...

Don't give up on nursing; I would assume it is a nursing strike and keep offering.

I'm can't see what benefit you get from having her as a doctor when she does a happy dance that your child isn't breastfeeding and wants to "fast track" your vaccine reactive child.

btw, we are a no-vax family.

[mamadelbosque]

We 'have' a family doc too... DS' seen him... 3 times? Maybe 4? Originally I told him we were delaying, but the last time we saw him (jan 08), he really tried to push them, and one of them (I think it was HiB... maybe rotovirus, tis been a while), and I just smiled, said 'no' and never made it to our next wbv 3 months later... I keep telling myself that we really should go back in just to say 'hi'... but my lil guy's been such a healthy little guy, I just don't see the point in taking him into an office full of sick people, you know?

[kiara7]

I'm sorry you have to deal with a doc like that.

Whenever someone tries to tell me that vax's are good and I am endangering other people by not vaxing, I think (or say) this:

You want me to give you my son as a sacrificial lamb, for the good of the "herd", but if something happens to him NONE of you will admit any responsibility. No doctor, no judge, no congressman, no pharma rep. You will say that it's a coincidence, vax's had nothing to do with it.

Your responsibility is not to the doc, to the "society", etc. You only have one responsibility and that is to your child.

[spero]

Originally Posted by BekahMomToOliver

I don't know though... I really like her as a family doctor, even though we have totally different philosophies on parenting. Plus, it would be soooo tough to get a new family doc. We're in Ontario so although we have our health care covered cost-wise, family doctors are in super short supply and we're rural, so no walk-in clinics. I'd like to try and keep her as a doctor but we just don't see eye-to-eye on much when it comes to raising kids. We cosleep, she loves Babywise - that kinda thing. She was sooooo happy today when she heard Oliver stopped nursing, I'm heartbroken and I definitely don't think "he was just ready". I think I just have to be a little more assertive, but I'm scared she'll convince me I'm wrong or be offended...

Sorry, but I would NOT keep a doc like that. Read your post again. What IS it that you actually like about this doctor? She has you wrapped right around her little finger, and you need to change that.

Stand up and be an advocate for your child. Trust me, if you don't do it now you will regret it somewhere down the line. I speak from unfortunate experience.

Originally Posted by peainthepod

Any doctor worth a damn should encourage BFing or at least tolerate it.

Anyway, your son's health comes before your fear of offending this woman, doctor or not. Period.

Ab-so-freaking-LUTELY.

[Marnica]

Everything I want to say has already been said by PP's. All I can say is Stand firm and stop vaxing until you can learn more. Your child'e life may depend on it!!!

[Yulia_R]

My son received 9 shots (3 sets of 3) and I regret it deeply. If I could only take it back I would. I stopped vax him when I started my research. My daugher never got a shot. With info I know now, my kids will get another shot only over my and my husband's dead cold bodies. NEVER AGAIN!