I need some clarification or validation.. or something.

[Frootloop]

For the record, my kiddos are 11 yr old DD and 15 yr old DS. This may get long, and I do apologize!!

Just a quick backstory - My son was injured roughly 4 years ago and we had to take him to an after hours clinic. While he was there, I was talked into giving him a tetanus shot/booster(?). My son and I remember this very clearly and also remember his arm being swollen and painful for almost a week. The swelling went away and all was said and done. I honestly couldn't remember when his last shot was before this appointment.

Fast forward to this past September. Upon entering high school (new school district since we just moved), the school is requiring a tetanus booster since his records claim that he hasn't had one since DS was six yrs old. Whoops! The schools don't have his updated shot record with his most recent tetanus shot. I'll have to get it from his old doctor. No problem, right? Wrong. His old doctor also has no record of it. So, I figure that the after hours clinic must not have faxed it over with his records from that visit... so I call them. They also have no record of it!!! For some strange reason, it's not in his file at all.

The new school AND his old doctor were both telling us that he HAD to receive another one at his yearly physical just after entering the new school in September.

Now, I have to say that I've only recently begun to question vaccines and I've really not researched enough to be able to argue with the medical folk about WHY I'm leary of certain vaccines.

So, we have to see the kids' new doctor for the first time for my son's physical. I explain my concerns about the *repeat* tetanus vax. I ask if he can do a titer check (I honestly wasn't sure if this was even possible, but..). He swears up and down that as long as it's been at least two years since his last DTAP, he is fine to get it again. I let him talk me into it. The rest of the convo went like this -

Doc - "he also needs to get the Meningitis vax as well".
Me - "ok, now what is that again?.
Doc- "oh, it's a REALLY important vaccination for kids his age to get."
Me -"but what IS it?"
Doc- "Oh, it's just a vaccination against meningitis".
Me - "oh..... okaaay".
Doc- "look, it's very very important that he get this vaccine. This is the perfect age to get it, too. There are kids his age all over the place that are DYING from meningitis. This vax will help prevent that".
My son (who is learning disabled with sensory issues and scared of needles, was just getting used to the idea of getting another tetanus shot) speaks up - "Mom, I really want to get this one. Dying is so not cool".
Doc - "See, mom, he's ok with it.. it's fine, I promise".
Me - Even though my mama instincts were screaming nooooooooooo!, I sputter, "o..o. okay".
Doc - "He should probably get a flu shot as well. It's particularly bad this year.".
Me - "NO"
Doc - "Mom, it's just a flu shot".
Me - "NO.. we don't do flu shots and it's not one you can talk me into, so can we just get on with this now please?".

He leaves the room. Nurse comes in with 3 needles. WTH?? I say it again, "HE'S NOT GETTING A FLU SHOT". Nurse says, "ohhh ok, well it's just such a routine here". Again, I say, "We don't do flu shots, thanks".

DS gets the two shots and off we go.

I have no clue why, but I went back to this place for my DD's physical yesterday. Ugh.
While in the tiny waiting room, I notice that there are SIX identical posters on the wall about the flu shot. In the hallway, there are 3 more. And 2 more in the room. Vax happy, anyone? Sheesh.

The *physical* part goes by without issue and I'm pretty pleased with how he was handling some concerns that I had.

Next up? Vaccines, which I was definitely not prepared for. DD just received the DTAP at her old doctors' a few months before and from what I understood, is up to date on everything. According to him, she needs more..

Doc - "Ahhh yes, she needs a chicken pox booster"
Me - "Um, no.. she had the chicken pox shot at 15 months and a few months later, she had shingles. She will not get that vax again nor any booster".
Doc - "Oh, so she should have natural immunity since she's already had the chicken pox."
Me - "Well, no.. she hasn't had chicken pox, just the vaccine".
Doc - "It's IMPOSSIBLE to have shingles without having the chicken pox. Just impossible. She must have been exposed and just never had symptoms.. but yes, she HAD to have had them. You just can't get the shingles after having the shot".
Me - "Umm, that's not what our old doc said and that's definitely not what I've read".
Doc -"well, we just won't worry about it for now".
Me - "Sounds good to me".

He drops that convo...

Doc - "Hmmm, I think she needs the meningitis vax now. It's the perfect age to get it".
Me - (fuming) "I thought that you said it was the perfect age for my 15 yr old son?"
Doc - "Well, we like to get it in as soon as the kids are able to.. for prevention".
Me - "Nah. We're not doing that one today"
Doc - "Are you sure? It's pretty important, kids are..."
Me - (really fuming and I cut him off) "No thank you"

Next up -

Doc - "Well, we should really get the flu shot today, if nothing else".
Me - "No, we don't do flu shots".
Doc - "Oh, that's right. Well, you should still consider it".
Me - "No".

Next up!

Doc - "Well, we have the HPV vax due around now, too, but ehhhhh, I'm not too pushy about it at this age, but, yeah definitely next year".
Me - "Yeaaaaaah.. no".

I refuse to talk about vaxes anymore... and get ready to leave.

DH isn't happy with me about this. He thinks I'm overreacting about the meningitis shot, for sure. The thing is, I can't even pinpoint what I have against it! I don't know, maybe just a gut feeling. I need help here

I'm firmly against the varicella shot (Dh has no concerns over it), but now I'm really concerned about her actually needing a booster. Pretty much everyone around us vaxes.. so, the chances of her picking up a wild case is really really slim. The older she gets, the more I worry for her.

I will never be talked into the Gardisil.. not a chance in hell. DH IS on my side with this one.
We are also both firmly against the flu shot as we both got very sick after receiving our one and only shot.

I don't really know what I'm asking.. I just.. I guess need some ammo against the meningitis shot. What exactly IS it? What is it even called?

IS the doc right about her and shingles? I know that I've read it in many places that you don't have to have an actual case of chicken pox, that you CAN have shingles just from receiving the vax. Am I correct?

Is being such a highly vax happy doctor good enough reason to switch peds? As I briefly mentioned before, he's pretty knowledgeable about other things.. and I do trust him there, but wow. The pushy vax thing. Yikes.

OMG, I am soooo sorry this got so long. All of this is actually making me feel queasy this morning and since DH isn't 100% on my side, I desperately needed to talk to someone about it.

[RachelGS]

I'd switch peds over this, yes. You're being bullied, and you're susceptible to it. It's hard to stand your ground when you're not quite sure what you believe, and when you're still researching. Practice saying, "We're not giving any vaccinations today," until it is easy and firm and you can do it with absolutely no hesitation. And find a doctor who respects your wishes while you research.

[spero]

Originally Posted by Frootloop

II just.. I guess need some ammo against the meningitis shot. What exactly IS it? What is it even called?

It's called Menactra, it is NOT (yet) required for school in NYS, they especially push it on college students, and I would stay FAR away from it.

http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/dru...de-effects.htm

Is being such a highly vax happy doctor good enough reason to switch peds? As I briefly mentioned before, he's pretty knowledgeable about other things.. and I do trust him there, but wow.

As someone who has wrangled with a ped office for several years now over not vaccinating, and was ultimately "fired" by said office recently, I would highly suggest that you ditch peds altogether and look for a family practitioner.

[Ophelia]

Originally Posted by RachelGS

I'd switch peds over this, yes. You're being bullied, and you're susceptible to it. It's hard to stand your ground when you're not quite sure what you believe, and when you're still researching. Practice saying, "We're not giving any vaccinations today," until it is easy and firm and you can do it with absolutely no hesitation. And find a doctor who respects your wishes while you research.

Exactly. This doc is scaremongering on purpose. If you have not yet visited http://www.insidevaccines.com, you should do so. Wonderful site.

[Pyrodjm]

Yes, I would switch doctors. I won't be bullied. He is providing a service that we/our insurance company is paying for. I would not go to a hair dresser that upset me or employ a housekeeper that argued about what I wanted her to do and not do. Why would as doctor be any different?

[Marnica]

I totally agree with previous psters. Run away from this doc. I recently left my ped practice because I refused to sign the "bad mommy" form. My son is vax free and I am 100% comfortable with telling docs NO vaxes. You would be surprised how CLUELESS most docs are about vaxes and their safety. He actually couldn't even explain to you why your children "need" Menactra?? Just that they should get it because kids are dying?? Really where is this Mennegitis "outbreak"?? If kids were dropping like flies it would be on the news. He is just trying to scare you. I heard the same line about HIB and Pertussis when I refused vaxes for my son.
Here is some info on Menactra: I wouldn't touch this with a 10ft pole (although I wouldnt touch the DTaP with 1 10 ft pole either)

http://www.novaccine.com/specific-va...ne.asp?v_id=23
Menactra contains known neurotoxins

Here is info on some other Meningococcal vaccines (some are for babies, but others are for older kids and adults)

http://www.novaccine.com/specific-va...ne.asp?v_id=49

there are 2 links at the top of this page one is for 4 pages of risks associated with this vaccine and the other to articles about their ineffectiveness.

[PaigeC]

This doctor sounds like a pushy used car salesman to me. Shot after shot after shot. Like that is his *primary* job instead of your children's health and wellness. He sounded like he was reading off a menu of "add-ons" that make $. Not very altruistic.

[Frootloop]

Oh wow, you guys are awesome Thank you so much for the information. I will definitely be researching more and there will NOT be any shots in the meantime. To be honest, I haven't even looked at the current vaccination schedule for my state. I need to look into that more, as well.

I'll admit have always been highly non-confrontational and I tend to stutter and just sputter things out when I'm feeling strongly for or against something. My brain just turns to complete mush!!! And the fact that I'm usually a big weenie, well, it just doesn't help all that much. LOL!

I actually shocked myself (and was very proud!) that I stood my ground against the flu, varicella, gardisil, and the meningitis vaxes for DD. I can easily see now how I was, and how other parents are bullied. It's absolutely ridiculous. It was like, the man couldn't stop talking about the freakin' vaxes! Just one after another and kept talking over me.

And no, I've also not heard of any crazy meningitis outbreaks, either. One would think it would be all over the news.

A close friend of mine just recommended her pediatrician to me. She has taken her 4 kids there since they were born (the oldest is 13). She says that they don't push vaxes at all and highly respect a parent's decision. Good to know.

There was one question that I really do need clarification on, mainly because I know that I've read (and been told) the complete opposite of what this doctor told me about the varicella vax..

Can someone who HAS had the varicella vax have a shingles outbreak without ever having a an actual CP outbreak?

This doctor swears that you can't.. that it's impossible. DD has never had an outbreak of CP. She had the vax at around 15 months and then had shingles in a line from her sternum to her spine on her left side. It was horrible for her. Her pediatrician at that time said that he was beginning to see a lot more children with shingles than before the vax came out and that he was beginning to question it himself. I regretted it instantly. I wish I could take it back.

I have to be honest.. I'm worried about DD contracting CP later on, that is, if she doesn't get a booster. I had a pretty bad case of it as a child and I worry that the older she gets, the worse it may be for her. I realize that my fears may be completely unfounded here..

[spero]

Originally Posted by Frootloop

I haven't even looked at the current vaccination schedule for my state.

http://www.schoolhealthservices.org/...nce%208-07.pdf

Remember - if you're going to claim a religious exemption for school in NYS, you cannot selectively vaccinate.

[brendaziz]

Yes- shingles IS a known side effect of the chicken pox vaccine. It's right in the package insert. Here's the link to the page on the manufacturers site talking about the chicken pox vaccine and it lists MANY times that shingles (herpes zoster) is a known side effect.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_...varivax_pi.pdf

Check it out- everytime you see herpes zoster that's what shingles is. If you DO go back to this ped, i would print that off and highlight everytime herpes zoster comes up :-)

[spero]

From the CDC:

How often does zoster (shingles) occur following varicella vaccination?

Varicella vaccine is a live virus vaccine, and may result in a latent infection, similar to that caused by wild varicella virus. Consequently, zoster in vaccinated persons has been reported. Not all of these cases have been confirmed as having been caused by vaccine virus. The risk of zoster following vaccination appears to be less than that following infection with wild-type virus. However, longer follow-up is needed to assess this risk over time.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/...-varicella.htm

[Frootloop]

Thank you all so much! Ugh.. I knew he was full of it.
After all of this, ummmm yeah, I have no intention whatsoever to return to them. But, I am going to print off the insert and that CDC page and mail it to them with a nice little letter. I am so much better on paper.

[Gitti]

I guess I came too late to respond. Everyone else said what I would have, though, except, you need a stronger backbone.

You are the only one who is responsible to protect your children since you know at least a little bit about the dangers of vaccines. Don't worry that your dh is not on board. He may come around eventually.

Start reading and researching and in mean time, don't vaccinate at all. I wish you the very best.

Oh and I totally agree, that doc needs to go! : His best interest is his pocket book, that's it. It's not kids!

[Frootloop]

Originally Posted by Gitti

I guess I came too late to respond. Everyone else said what I would have, though, except, you need a stronger backbone.

You are the only one who is responsible to protect your children since you know at least a little bit about the dangers of vaccines. Don't worry that your dh is not on board. He may come around eventually.

Start reading and researching and in mean time, don't vaccinate at all. I wish you the very best.

Oh and I totally agree, that doc needs to go! : His best interest is his pocket book, that's it. It's not kids!

Thank you, I will most definitely keep researching.
And yes, I completely agree with the needing stronger backbone. I've experienced the effects of not having much of one all of my life. It's not too fun. Currently, all of my research that I have done lately (breastfeeding, circumcision, and a tiny bit of vax), ugh.. it's me against everyone in my personal life. None of my family or friends, besides people on this website and a few others, feel the way that I do. At times, it makes me wish that I didn't know what I know.. that I was almost happier being blind to it all.

Blah, I'm rambling lol sorry.

For the record, I do stick up for my children in almost all situations.. and I've gotten seriously mama bear on a couple people over some issues. It's just that when it comes to any sort of authoritarian type of deal, I clam up. I feel weak and stupid. And it sucks.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't think that DH will EVER come around on all vaxes. He was a firefighter/EMT in the air force and all of our vax conversations always end up with him saying something along the lines of, "Sweetie, have you SEEN my vax record for the military? It's this long *insert giant hand gestures here*. They shot us up with everyyyyyything. And we're still alive and well.". And then it's something like, "not all vaxes are bad.. most really do save lives". And I can never come up with any good comebacks to it.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Frootloop

Thank you, I will most definitely keep researching.
And yes, I completely agree with the needing stronger backbone. I've experienced the effects of not having much of one all of my life. It's not too fun. Currently, all of my research that I have done lately (breastfeeding, circumcision, and a tiny bit of vax), ugh.. it's me against everyone in my personal life. None of my family or friends, besides people on this website and a few others, feel the way that I do. At times, it makes me wish that I didn't know what I know.. that I was almost happier being blind to it all.

Blah, I'm rambling lol sorry.

For the record, I do stick up for my children in almost all situations.. and I've gotten seriously mama bear on a couple people over some issues. It's just that when it comes to any sort of authoritarian type of deal, I clam up. I feel weak and stupid. And it sucks.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't think that DH will EVER come around on all vaxes. He was a firefighter/EMT in the air force and all of our vax conversations always end up with him saying something along the lines of, "Sweetie, have you SEEN my vax record for the military? It's this long *insert giant hand gestures here*. They shot us up with everyyyyyything. And we're still alive and well.". And then it's something like, "not all vaxes are bad.. most really do save lives". And I can never come up with any good comebacks to it.

First of all I know how you feel being alone and having no allies (except online!) I too am the only person in my life who is enlightened enough to have discovered the truth and at first I felt that it would be easier to be blind. Ignorance is bliss. But then again tell that to a parent of a vaccine damaged child or to a parent who precious baby is dead from a vaccine. I have met many online here and on other boards and they wish they had NOT been blind and ignorant to the very real dangers. So now I Thank God that I learned what i know before I even had my baby. Hang in there it gets easier the more you learn! Rely on those mama bear instincts and remember your child only has you to protect him beacuse nobody else will!

As for your husband, he clearly needs to do some research. When he gives you the line about "Im still here and had all the vaxes" you can point out that the long term effects of all the vaxes he has gotten remain to be seen. He could come down with an autoimmune disorder, cancer, another chronic disease. Just because he didn't have any immediate life threatning reactions doesn't mean sqaut. The long term effects of vaccines have NEVER been studied so he can't prove to you that there are NO long term effects and they are SAFE. It can't be done. I dare him to try!! And you can also point out that vaccinating an adult whose immune system is mature is VASTLY different than vaccinating a baby/child whose immune system is immature. Also just because he didnt suffer any immediate reactions DOES NOT mean your baby won't. Every human being is different.

Has your husband taken a look at the ingredients of the vaccines he wants to give your LO??? If not have him take a good look. Go to http://www.novaccine.com. You can look up all the vaxes and their ingredients. As for most vaccines being "good and saving lives". Id pin him down and ask him which ones he is referring to. It is a fact that MOST vaccines do not save lives. The disases were dying out well before the vaccine even came out on the market. Then take each vax he thinks is "good" and look at the disease itself.
And yes there are a few vaccines that have been successful in practically eradicating the disease for which it was mad, but this doesn't mean that it is life saving. An example if HIB. (which may lead to mennegitis) There is practically no HIB anymore, but at what cost??? The eradication of HIB has created a vaccuum for more virulent bacteria and viruses to step in and take it's place. These bugs also can cause mennegitis so the "complications" that MAY occur from HIB have not actually gone down. HIB itself has, but that doesn't mean anything. The same goes for Prevnar...And many of the other vaccines are ineffective as well as dangerous. Measles, CP, mumps, pertussis, rubella still occur in individuals that have been FULLY vaccinated. I basically told my husband who said all the things your husband was saying that our son would not receive any vaxes (over my dead body were my exact words) until he had sit down and read everything I had. He has become educated now and is totally on board with no vaxing. I wish you luck. It is a very hard road when people constantly throw obstacles in your way, but this is your child and he/she is depending on you!

[Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Marnica

As for your husband, he clearly needs to do some research. When he gives you the line about "Im still here and had all the vaxes" you can point out that the long term effects of all the vaxes he has gotten remain to be seen. He could come down with an autoimmune disorder, cancer, another chronic disease. Just because he didn't have any immediate life threatning reactions doesn't mean sqaut. The long term effects of vaccines have NEVER been studied so he can't prove to you that there are NO long term effects and they are SAFE. It can't be done. I dare him to try!! And you can also point out that vaccinating an adult whose immune system is mature is VASTLY different than vaccinating a baby/child whose immune system is immature. Also just because he didnt suffer any immediate reactions DOES NOT mean your baby won't. Every human being is different.

Yes, exactly. This is going to be tough. DH and I also were on opposite sides when DS was newborn, and he isn't even in the medical field. He used the same exact excuse (we got all our shots and we're fine). This is completely discounting the people (babies, kids, and adults) who have had serious, life-altering injuries, and deaths from vaccination. Not to mention, for civilians at least, there were WAY less shots 20-30 years ago.

Keep researching, stand your ground, and don't submit your child to any vaccines unless YOU feel completely comfortable with this. From my personal experience, I did not do this and live with the guilt every day. I have a great list of resources on my webpage and I also recommend you and DH sit down and watch Dr. Jay Gordon's vaccination video. I hear Dr. Sherri Tenpenny's video is excellent also, have only seen part of that myself.