Bible and homosexuality. - Page 2

[Ms.QsMama]

AlmostAPpropriate- no problem.

i ended up watching the documentary again this morning... and bawling my eyes out again while watching it. it's really great. very healing for me.

i was a fundy. i no longer am. it became a crisis of conscience for me. (homosexuality was a BIG issue for me. the "church's" theology NEVER sat well with me.) i no longer believe the bible to be inerrent..infallable. i believe it's inspired and full of beauty and truth (i think this documentary is too though...) and my very simple take on it all is that if it's an issue that leads to bitterness, divisiveness, and shame, then it isn't something that is of god. homophobia isn't of god. it doesn't breed the "fruit of the spirit"...

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

..and therefore doesn't represent the god i know.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i think semper makes some great points.

this is *my* perspective... in the interest of full disclosure im not christian anymore.

the bible was written and then repeatedly translated many times by many different people in many different time periods and cultures. humans are fallible. they have their own biases based on the culture and time and their personal experiences. they also have their own agendas. these were written and translated in the context of the culture of the writers and translators.

God is our creator. he made each man in his image. Jesus, his son, he lead a life of kindness, generosity, care of the poor, the sick, the young etc. he did not (according to Christianity) get married or have children. he lead what was for that time quite the alternative lifestyle.

Jesus set an example of how to live. he loved and cared for those around him. he shared what he could, he forgave those who wronged him. he reached out to people that no one cared about. he valued all people regardless of their situation in life. to me these are the most important things to take from the bible.

IMO- God is far more able then we are to see the big picture.. it is his picture after all. I think who someone has sex with are human prejudices and concerns not godly ones. I think God created life and we should love and care for life in all of its many variations. i think treating all life with respect and dignity is important.. after all.. God created life. I don't think God makes mistakes. I do not think God would create homosexuals just so they can live their lives hiding and suppressing who they are.. never having the love that heterosexuals have. It is a fact of biology that humans crave touch, physical closeness, etc. God created us that way... why would he create a whole group of people and then deprive them of that very primal need? those are human prejudices, human ideas, and human judgements. God does not look at this world and see love between two people of the same sex as a problem. Love is good no matter what.

so basically i think any concerns outside of love, kindness, generosity, respect, etc. are more human then Godly. murder, lying, stealing, gluttony, selfishness, greed, adultery etc. can all be taken back to those things. they are not loving, kind, generous, respectful etc.

I appreciated what you had to say. and b/c you're aren't Christian it doesn't apply fully to the OP question. but it was still good thoughts

That said, I think that as a Christian that believes in God as full Authority and humans as servants to Him... the argument that God is loving and wouldn't have made homosexuals if it was wrong to act homosexually doesn't hold a lot of weight. Not the homosexuality is in any way similar to what I am about to say other than to make a point of sinners being sinful) God also made murders, peopel given to the urge to masturbate, people with violent tempers, people who desire to hurt others, people who sre given to over eating, people who are addicted to sugar or tv or drugs, people are inclined to steal. etc etc etc. did he mean for those people to act on their feelings?
my point ISN'T that homosexuality and murdering is the same. (it isn't! that is clear) but it is in the sense that if God said not to act on it, and we do, it is a sin. NOT b/c we think it should be a sin. and NOT b/c we know nice people who we love who have this sin in their lives. but because God said it is sin. how we feel has nothing to do with it.

now I realize there are people that have reasons to believe God doesn't say this is a sin. that is a whole other issue that I'm not hitting on (though I'm not throwing our either)

but my point is we can't decide AS CHRISTIANS who follow god as our authority, what laws we wish to keep and those we wish the change based on how we feel. Yes, god is love. but He is righteousness. Righteousness in which we are not. so He gets to call the shots. do we have to obey? nope. but if we claim in His name that we are obedient, we mjst obey even that which we don't understand or we are not truly obedient servants.

now as a person who isn't a Christian, I realize this wont hold a lot of weight with you. but since you ono-christian answer was given to christians, I'm throwing outwhat is erroneous in it from a Christian standpoint (even if it's ok by your own standpoint, respectively). I'm not aiming to condemn you, personally!

all in all any feelings I have about homosexuality are based in what I feell God has to say about it. (taking into account all things such as human error in writing etc etc) and coming to the conclusion I feel it is sin. I don't feel this way b/c dislike gay people. not b/c I think they have cooties. not b/c I'm repulsed by them. nothing like that. I known many people that are gay and nice and I would call them good human beings! but... again... that isn't the point. however, if they aren't followers of the Christian God, then it is not my duty to impress upon them how I feel they should live. God leaves that up to each of us. and I respect that.

OP-
I'm not trying to get into what is sinful about homosexuality - I realize that is NOT what you asked for. I was trying to touch on how it is dangerous to assume that b/c God made us that we are free to act in any way we want. please don't misinterpret my post for trying to flame gays or prove what is wrong about gays. I've yet to hear a good reason/argument on why homosexuality would be not be a sin... but i've heard some based on feelings alone. and since you asked for biblical references or whatever, and I too am curious about this... I'm was just trying to make that point. please don't think I'm trying to highjack your thread!! no disrespect!

[1littlebit]

lol hennypenny i totally understand what you mean! you really can't pick and choose what God wants... and if you believe that God was pretty clear about something there's not much you can do about it yk?

the reason i said i am not Christian is actually partly b/c of that. God feels right to me, Mary is someone that i feel very close to.. not sure why but when i pray (i'm weird my 'prayers' are generally me babbling on about things in my head lol) it is almost always to her. or st. anthony.. if i had to make one argument for Catholicism being THE religion it would be St. Anthony.. he can find anything.. seriously. the not christian part is that i don't put a lot of stock in the intricacies of the bible. i feel very strongly that the nitpickiness of what is right and wrong is human not godly. i don't think God is bogged down by those things. in my heart i feel like he is far greater then we are and is not concerned with the same things. I think he created life and therefore requests that we respect all life. I think disrespecting life is an affront to God b/c he created man in his image and he created us equally ... he gave man dominion over the earth to protect it and care for it not to abuse and destroy it. that is why i think murder is wrong.. it is a complete disrespect for life. it is destroying Gods creation for no reason. Lying is intentionally harming and disrespecting one of Gods creations. it may not be physical.. but God isn't really about physical.. he is much more then that.

and sense thats how i feel i don't really fit into the whole christian label... since i think you can boil the bible down to about three sentences and still get the message.

[AlmostAPpropriate]

I get what both HennyPenny & 1littlebit are getting at. As to my original question it is asked more to follow the logic of a Christian who believes the bible is sacred and who still comes to the conclusion that homosexuality isnt a sin.

I also totally agree that because you feel a strong need for a certain action that doesnt mean it is "right" from a Christian God given morality standpoint. I watched part of a TV movie once where William H. Macy played a father being consumed by the conflicting guilt/urge to molest young boys. It was revolting and heartbreaking. He was such a good man but felt so empty without fulfilling that need.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by AlmostAPpropriate

I get what both HennyPenny & 1littlebit are getting at. As to my original question it is asked more to follow the logic of a Christian who believes the bible is sacred and who still comes to the conclusion that homosexuality isnt a sin.

I also totally agree that because you feel a strong need for a certain action that doesnt mean it is "right" from a Christian God given morality standpoint. I watched part of a TV movie once where William H. Macy played a father being consumed by the conflicting guilt/urge to molest young boys. It was revolting and heartbreaking. He was such a good man but felt so empty without fulfilling that need.

wow. yes... thought provoking. sad. so hard to make sense of!

[TzippityDoulah]

I get what you are saying, totally. I don't agree, but I respect your reasons and ways of getting to the beliefs you have. it's good to see people give thought to things, you know? more than just jumping formone conclusion to another etc. I appreciate wise thinking, even when I don't fullheartedly agree

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

wow. yes... thought provoking. sad. so hard to make sense of!

. we really need a sad nod face

i know there are christians around here who believe the bible is very sacred and don't think homosexuality is a sin.. just not sure where they are hiding lol.

[Ms.QsMama]

well, i suppose when homosexuality is defined as a "feeling" and not an integral part of a human being, then it can be dismissed as such. that breaks my heart though as i have seen first hand the damage that line of thinking does to a person. not only that, but it represents homosexual relationships as nothing more then for the purpose of sex. what an unfair portrayal.

op, you aren't going to find scripture that explicitly says something along the lines of, "homosexuality is approved by god!" if that's what you're looking for, then you're looking in vein. if you are however, willing to look at scripture through it's cultural context, then the "it's not a sin" camp makes a very good argument. (all laid out beautifully in the documentary i linked, might i add. ) we've looked at all other "abominations" through cultural context. why the hesitancy to do so with homosexuality?
and for the record, i do believe that scripture is god inspired and sacred, i just don't believe it's the final authority.

here is a good excerpt for those of you who can't or won't watch the documentary. 7 minutes versus 90 minutes.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i know there are christians around here who believe the bible is very sacred and don't think homosexuality is a sin... just not sure where they are hiding lol.

yeah... I was kinda looking fwd to hearing their POV. so far all I've heard are feelings based things. (no offense to those people! I was just hoping for other points of view too.)

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by Ms.QsMama

well, i suppose when homosexuality is defined as a "feeling" and not an integral part of a human being, then it can be dismissed as such. that breaks my heart though as i have seen first hand the damage that line of thinking does to a person. not only that, but it represents homosexual relationships as nothing more then for the purpose of sex. what an unfair portrayal.

op, you aren't going to find scripture that explicitly says something along the lines of, "homosexuality is approved by god!" if that's what you're looking for, then you're looking in vein. if you are however, willing to look at scripture through it's cultural context, then the "it's not a sin" camp makes a very good argument. (all laid out beautifully in the documentary i linked, might i add. ) we've looked at all other "abominations" through cultural context. why the hesitancy to do so with homosexuality?
and for the record, i do believe that scripture is god inspired and sacred, i just don't believe it's the final authority.

here is a good excerpt for those of you who can't or won't watch the documentary. 7 minutes versus 90 minutes.

I would watch it but our internet isn't compatible with youtube.

believe me I acknowledge that homosexuality is more than a feeling or whim. I feel it is far deeper than that for a lot of people. but like I said, I do not believe it matters what is our "nature" as we are told to live by Godly standards, not by our nature. so it's not that I disagree or that I have an uncaring "so what" attitude about it. please do not misinterpret. and it's not that I think I'm less sinful b/c I'm not homosexual (we're all sinners), it's just one of MANY commands I adhere too for the simple fact that god gave it.

and I'm curious... what other abominations have we overlooked b/c of cultural context? I'm not sure what you mean by that but I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i know there are christians around here who believe the bible is very sacred and don't think homosexuality is a sin.. just not sure where they are hiding lol.

Here I am! :

Before I respond to that, 2 things:

thismama, thanks for the link to that musical -- I want to watch it now but I'll have to wait, the music interferes with my 8yo's tv show.

Since molestation has been brought up, I want to share the following link -- (after you go there, type "child molestation" in their search engine)

http://gaylife.about.com/b/2006/0710...th-or-fact.htm

It provides a link to statistics -- not sure, but I think it has the information I read before, citing that when young children are molested, the perpetrators are actually more likely to be (male and) heterosexual in their adult relationships, whether they choose little boys or little girls to prey upon.

Now, about the original question -- I hold the Bible to be very sacred, and actually the more I release it from a literal interpretation, the more truth I discover.

I don't have time for a long response now, I'll try to come back tomorrow. But, briefly, I see the Scriptures as addressing not homosexuality -- but, rather, specific same-sex acts that involved either idol worship or exploitation.

[mammal_mama]

About the link -- it doesn't take you straight to the info. Type "child molestation" in their search engine.

[1littlebit]

yay! i knew you were here somewhere.

oo and real quick... i know this has nothing to do with whether or not its a sin... but pedophilia takes advantage of, exploits, and causes great harm to the victims. which is why someone is required to suppress the urge to do so. also i don't really think pedophilia is about sex. its about dominance, exploitation, and control.

homosexuality does none of those things... i would hesitate to talk about them as if they are similar things to suppress.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

oo and real quick... i know this has nothing to do with whether or not its a sin... but pedophilia takes advantage of, exploits, and causes great harm to the victims. which is why someone is required to suppress the urge to do so. also i don't really think pedophilia is about sex. its about dominance, exploitation, and control.

homosexuality does none of those things... i would hesitate to talk about them as if they are similar things to suppress.

Yes -- the only reason I mentioned the research is that someone brought up some movie where a man had a strong urge to molest boys. Since it was brought up in this thread, where we are discussing homosexuality, I wanted to make it clear that men molesting little boys really is not at all related to homosexuality.

[1littlebit]

lol yeah i was agreeing with you

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Now, about the original question -- I hold the Bible to be very sacred, and actually the more I release it from a literal interpretation, the more truth I discover.

For instance, when I became open to the possibility that the creation account might be allegorical and not literal, I came to a much deeper understanding of what the fall was really about. My openness enabled me to seriously consider scientific/anthropological findings that had previously been "taboo" to me because of their link with evolutionary theories.

Anyhow, that's a whole 'nuther subject. The point I'm trying to make, is that my desire as a parent is to open up the world for my children to explore and enjoy, while offering my guidance and protection, and helping them learn to navigate the world for themselves and make their own choices -- and I now see God as that kind of a parent, too.

The idea that there's some kind of spiritual superiority in just submitting to a literal interpretation of Scripture whether it makes sense or not, runs counter to what I now believe about the way God is raising me. Sure, as parents, we have to protect our children from dangers that they're not mature enough to understand yet.

But, to protect them, we do our best to childproof and keep toxic, potentially harmful stuff out of sight and out of reach. We don't set a can of comet on the kitchen table and tell our 2yo, "You can play with everything else in the kitchen, but don't eat this or you'll die."

Gotta go. I'll try to come back and finish that thought later.

[theretohere]

My church teaches that sexuality and the thoughts and urges associated with it are sinful to act on outside of a church recognized marriage. This means it's just as sinful for a hetero couple are as a homosexual couple. I'm always really interested in these threads.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by theretohere

My church teaches that sexuality and the thoughts and urges associated with it are sinful to act on outside of a church recognized marriage. This means it's just as sinful for a hetero couple are as a homosexual couple. I'm always really interested in these threads.

how come so many people treat it like it is somehow worse?

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by theretohere

My church teaches that sexuality and the thoughts and urges associated with it are sinful to act on outside of a church recognized marriage. This means it's just as sinful for a hetero couple are as a homosexual couple.

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

how come so many people treat it like it is somehow worse?

I see this as one of the biggest problems with Christian response to the issue. I very much fear that many Christians regard it as far worse, not for any kind of doctrinal reason, but because it is something foreign or personally offensive to them. Even worse, some use Christian moral teachings as an excuse to act out their hostility toward anyone they perceive as different.

This leads to some confusion and conflict, even within Christianity. If I maintain that all fornication is a sin, I am lumped together with those who think gay people should be shot.

Speaking for my own religious background: Not only is homosexual fornication no worse than any other form of fornication (and less bad than some), I think it is clear that sexual sins in general are not regarded as the worst sins. Blasphemy, idolatry, or desecration of sacred items are all considered far worse. I think many denominations agree in principle, yet we do not see groups of zealous "Christians" out looking to catch people yelling "G-- d--n it!" when they get a parking ticket, or spray-painting graffiti on the wall of a church, and beat the crap out of them.

[1littlebit]

this is why i love MDC. mamabadger you are so right. I think this is one of the biggest problems people have with some christians... they either don't know or don't care that homosexuality is no different then any other sexual sin.. and then say their persecution of homosexuals is because of the bible yk?

i actually have a friend who is non denominational christian (i need to start a thread asking what exactly it means to be non denominational)..anyway..(best moment of my life was watching this friend go head to head with my devout Catholic friend on this subject) this friend is against gay marriage b/c according to her the bible says its wrong.. ok fine.. but thats not the issue with the legal marriage. she went on to give the argument that people would marry animals and such.. and ministers would be forced. yada yada ... we corrected that particular line of thinking.

then says that if they get married they should have stricter divorce laws b/c they arent supposed to marry to begin with. figure that one out. it ended with her saying we are never going to agree they shouldnt be allowed to get married it just wrong and god doesn't like it. yes, btw, our gay friend is one of her best friends too.. she just doesn't talk about it in front of him.. that makes it slightly better i guess.

now here is the kicker this girl has slept with more people than the rest of our friends combined... not an exaggeration. and at least one of the men was married with kids. she also fought me tooth and nail on circ b/c its her kid and she can do what she wants with it... (she has no kids yet) and said that she doesn't care if Christians are supposed to circ she does things against the bible all the time.

and yet her argument against same sex marriage and same sex relations is that the bible says its wrong.

You Mamas on MDC have shown me time and time again that this is not what Christianity is about. and that you don't get to pick and choose... why does she act like that? why does she do things she knows are wrong without caring and then use the bible to condemn others?