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Bible and homosexuality. - Page 4

post #61 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
This leads to some confusion and conflict, even within Christianity. If I maintain that all fornication is a sin, I am lumped together with those who think gay people should be shot.

Speaking for my own religious background: Not only is homosexual fornication no worse than any other form of fornication (and less bad than some), I think it is clear that sexual sins in general are not regarded as the worst sins. Blasphemy, idolatry, or desecration of sacred items are all considered far worse. I think many denominations agree in principle, yet we do not see groups of zealous "Christians" out looking to catch people yelling "G-- d--n it!" when they get a parking ticket, or spray-painting graffiti on the wall of a church, and beat the crap out of them.

this brings up a good point. would I say something to someone who said "g-d d-nit"? probably not. would I say something to someone saying it to my kids... or even yelling it at their kid? probably. yes it is their choice to say so... but not when it directly affects another person. the same with other things. would I say something to a homosexual just b/c they were homosexual? no! that is their choice and I have deep respect for it. would I let them to talk to my child about it? no. do you see what I am getting at? it is one thing to support a person's right to choose their own way. another to let it effect my family, self or what have you.

what I mean is that I think God is God of all. so therefore His commands will be for everyone. that said, he gives us a choice. if we choose not to follow, that is our choice. but if we choose to be a follower and then instead make our own decisions on what is or is not morally correct (biblically/christianity wise) we need to be held accountable to it. we need to be SURE we are right on this, or we're just making it up as we go. there is much danger to ourselves and others in that.

all in all I recognize people's choice. I don't find homosexuality repulsive or sick. I do think people feel love for one another. I only find it sinful b/c of what I find in the Bible that God says about it. I realize some churches DO act out of hatred and that is sick and wrong and completely unbiblical! They WILL be judged on that! Jesus never went to people not of the faith and said "hey you sinner! sick person! how disgusted I am by you!" but He did go to the teachers and rabbi's who did not keep his commands and confronted them on their sins.

so my point is that is it wrong to expect people who choose not to follow God to follow his commands. God gave us all our free will.
post #62 of 132
p.s. I don't take issue (whether i like it or not is irrelevant) with homosexual people have legal unions. I do take issue with it in the church b/c of what I believe the Bible says. outside of the church marriage isn't different. it may be a "spiritual" union but that isn't the same as Godly/Christian union. God has a preset purpose for marriage. why? I don't know why. I am not God.

and as for the comparison about how we parents vs. how God "parents" us. well let us remember He is holy and righteous and can expect of us as He pleases but He will never err. We as parents are human and NOT righteous nor perfected so we can not hold the same authority on our children as God hold on us all (His children). it's onyl applicable so far. it really isn't a "that settles it" kinda point.

we simply cannot be trusted to always do right even if that is what we wish to do. God can and does.

would I leave our comet on our table and say "don't eat it or you will die?". nope. Did God tell us not to eat of the tree and yet leave it in the garden of Eden in plain sight? yup.

granted I respect that some people don't believe that is the literal translation... but there are MANY other examples on times God said basically "obey, even if you do not understand". again. He is God and can do this. we cannot to the same degree. (btw I have studied and gien much prayer and thought on the "literal vs. allergorical" arguement of the Bible. and to me neither hold much weight. it is CLEAR that it is a mix of both. commands, stories. history. how could this be either allergorical or literal? it is clearly both to me. but when it comes to commands, I take them literally. (hence the headcovering, setting aside the sabbath day ect...) and when it comes ot grace I take it literally. when it comes ot "stories" or "history" I take it as examples of thoguht provokingand insightful circumstances that make us fall our knees and ask God how to understand this on a personal level.
post #63 of 132
I am Christian. I believe the bible is sacred. I believe that homosexuality, responsibly acted on, is not a sin. By that, I mean that both heterosexual and homosexual sex acts can be sins in the wrong context (casual sex, for example).

While I think the bible is sacred, I too do not believe that we are meant to take every word of it literally. Some things, even some commands, have cultural/historic contexts that don't apply today. Some portions have been re-translated so many times that we who read the bible in English really can't be certain that we are reading what was really there. Given that, I read the bible with an eye towards repeated, broad themes to find truth, rather than an specific verse. Doesn't matter what verse, if there aren't many similar verses/themes throughout the scripture, then I think we have to examine it pretty closely before we act on it.

So, I see themes of sex within a context of commited relationship, able to care for any child created, as an expression of our love for each other and for God as OK. I see themes of sex as explotation, glory to only ourselves, fulfilling only our own desires without considering the broader responsibilities as sin. I see themes of caring for our bodies as OK, but I don't see themes that forbid certain foods carried throughout the bible. I see themes of love of God and each other as the overarching "uber-theme" and anything that goes against that as a sin. So that's the way I try to act.

Am I sure I'm right? Nope, because as someone else said, I'm not God and the best I can do is to use ALL of the tools God gave me to understand my world and God's desire for it. Those tools include my brain, my heart, scripture, church leaders, prayer... I try to use them all in making these sorts of decisions. I figure if I'm wrong, I will accept that, but be content knowing that I tried my best.
post #64 of 132
I don't know if this has been posted, but this is on the front page of MSN

Newsweek: Bible isn't against gay marriage
post #65 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
yeah i agree.. i don't think it was a comparison... it was just the post that talked about the guy suppressing the urge to molest little boys.... like i said i don't think it was comparing per se... but it is not really relevant and can be kind of offensive on a thread about homosexuality being a sin.
This is how I saw it -- except that it's not my impression that the OP intended for the thread to be about homosexuality being a sin (I'm not saying you meant that either -- just clarifying ). And I didn't necessarily think the previous poster was trying to lump homosexuality together with child-molestation.

However, what I did see was the OP saying that she'd already heard Christians saying why they thought homosexuality was wrong, and she was wanting to hear from Christians who don't see it as a sin ...

And then it seemed like lots of people were coming in to say that they don't see it as "any different from other sins" ... and then someone mentioned some movie about a "really good" man who just had to suppress his urge to molest boys ...

And all this sent up a red flag for me, regardless of the poster's original intent. Because, whenever gay-bashers worry that society's getting too tolerant, they tend to play the card of, "The gays are out to recruit/sexually groom your children!" --

Because they know that mama-bear and papa-bear instinct will likely kick in, and all reasoned discussion will likely fly out the window. People will start saying things like, "It's fine what 'they' want to do in the privacy of their own bedrooms -- but I don't want 'them' around my children!"

Basically, when the bashers play the child-card, they often succeed in getting people to move away from "us together" mentality, back into "us against them" mentality.

That's very sad. Especially since the fear-mongering is based on inaccurate information -- actually outright lies.
post #66 of 132
I just wanted to add, I never meant to imply that I saw the whole Bible as allegory. I like Evan&Anna's_Mom's explanation for how she reads the Bible.
post #67 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
would I say something to a homosexual just b/c they were homosexual? no! that is their choice and I have deep respect for it. would I let them to talk to my child about it? no. do you see what I am getting at? it is one thing to support a person's right to choose their own way. another to let it effect my family, self or what have you.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're talking about someone just walking up to your child and, right out of the blue, expounding about any aspect of sexuality, I would find that rather bizarre.

And I sure wouldn't want a fundamentalist Christian sharing her homophobic views with my children. At the same time, there may very well come a time when my children will want to hear the fundamentalist view, and not from me(a former fundie) -- but from someone who actually still believes that way.

If my child is the one seeking out the alternate viewpoints, I do not have a problem with people answering my child's questions.

But when you say "talking about homosexuality," would this even include a gay person referring, in your child's presrence, to (if female) her wife, or (if male) his husband ? This is no more "sexual" than you or me referring to our husbands, so I hope that's not what you're talking about.
post #68 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBaby2007 View Post
I don't know if this has been posted, but this is on the front page of MSN

Newsweek: Bible isn't against gay marriage

i was just going to post this article. I linked it on my facebook page.

I haven't had a chance to read this thread though...so booking marking to come back later after the kiddo goes to sleep.
post #69 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're talking about someone just walking up to your child and, right out of the blue, expounding about any aspect of sexuality, I would find that rather bizarre.

And I sure wouldn't want a fundamentalist Christian sharing her homophobic views with my children. At the same time, there may very well come a time when my children will want to hear the fundamentalist view, and not from me(a former fundie) -- but from someone who actually still believes that way.

If my child is the one seeking out the alternate viewpoints, I do not have a problem with people answering my child's questions.

But when you say "talking about homosexuality," would this even include a gay person referring, in your child's presrence, to (if female) her wife, or (if male) his husband ? This is no more "sexual" than you or me referring to our husbands, so I hope that's not what you're talking about.


no not my point at all my point is that there is a place for personal choices and a place where it would affect another human being. yes, I would be upset if *any* person walked up to my kids and talked about their sexual orientation. that was my point entirely. that if someone used God's name in vain it would bother me, but I wouldn't say anything unless it had direct affect on me. nor would I say anything about someone's sexual orientation unless it directly affected me. (which it very likely wouldn't) both are a person's choice. (this was in response to the previous poster that asked about that - I wasn't just using some random example)

no it had nothing to do with them referring to their spouse. why would that be offensive?? that wouldn't even make sense...

whether or not you want your kids to hear a POV from a "fundie" (which btw I am not, though I have no problem with those who are) would be up to you when and in your timing. just as it would be up to me and me timing and when I let my kids know about and learn from people of other faiths and beliefs... but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about honestly, in the least.
post #70 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by HennyPenny View Post
no it had nothing to do with them referring to their spouse. why would that be offensive?? that wouldn't even make sense...
i was wondering the same thing as the pp that asked you about it, because other than "i'm adam and this is my partner, steve," i couldn't come up with any possible situation in which someone would randomly talk to a child about being gay. thanks for clarifying! actually - i've got one. the only one i can think of is a friend (another child) coming out to your child, but by that point, they would presumably both be at an age where they are already aware of what being gay means, and again it wouldn't be a discussion about sex but about identity. so i just can't think of any other way that someone else's homosexuality could effect your/my child.

op, i'm just another christian who doesn't believe commited gay relationships are wrong but who has no "it says so right here" verse to back it up. it's more a matter of studying the scriptures that supposedly condemn homosexuality and determining that it's really not about that.
post #71 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
i was wondering the same thing as the pp that asked you about it, because other than "i'm adam and this is my partner, steve," i couldn't come up with any possible situation in which someone would randomly talk to a child about being gay. thanks for clarifying!
Yes, that was why I asked ... I was trying to imagine a scenario where some other adult would be talking to my child (my oldest is only 8) about homosexuality, and that was the only one I could imagine, at least at this time.

Later on, when my kids are older, I could imagine this (bolding mine) --

Quote:
the only one i can think of is a friend (another child) coming out to your child, but by that point, they would presumably both be at an age where they are already aware of what being gay means, and again it wouldn't be a discussion about sex but about identity. so i just can't think of any other way that someone else's homosexuality could effect your/my child.

op, i'm just another christian who doesn't believe commited gay relationships are wrong but who has no "it says so right here" verse to back it up. it's more a matter of studying the scriptures that supposedly condemn homosexuality and determining that it's really not about that.
This is where I'm at, too.
post #72 of 132
It's just interesting how often these discussions lead into some version of "We need to protect our kids."

It just goes to show how insidious that right-wing tactic is.

HennyPenny, I never meant to make you feel I was labeling you or anyone else on the thread a fundamentalist.
post #73 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
It's just interesting how often these discussions lead into some version of "We need to protect our kids."
Yes, and its just so frustrating. Protect from what exactly? No matter what you believe, there will always be people around your children with different beliefs. Part of parenting is sharing our beliefs, guiding children to their own beliefs (as age appropriate) and, perhaps most importantly, how to politely deal with those with differing opinions. This, to me, is an essential part of being good parents.

All four of my children's godparents are gay (two married same sex couples). My kids have known this since they were old enough to know these adults, who are very active see-every-couple-of-days parts of their lives. Exactly what should I be afraid of here? That they will "make" my kids gay? No, because its not a choice thing, IMHO. That they will abuse my children somehow? Actually, research shows a heterosexual man is the most likely person to molest a child. That they will, gasp, learn tolerance for those who are different? How wonderful a thing to learn at an early age.

About the only thing they have learned from this that I hate for them to know is that some people dislike their godparents because they are gay. They have, at 5 and 9, learned that in some circles they don't mention these wonderful caring adults because others will get hostile. How sad is that?
post #74 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom View Post
Exactly what should I be afraid of here? That they will "make" my kids gay? No, because its not a choice thing, IMHO.
I agree, and I see this as one of the worst things resulting from the argument that "God doesn't create people with a gay/lesbian orientation." Because, if it's not inborn, then it must be a "choice" (and/or the result of their early relationships) --

Which leads back into the whole fearful "we have to protect our kids from 'them'"-thing -- because if someone made "them" gay, then "they" might make our kids gay. And, of course, the right-wing has a ball with that, because they can really go to town with it, talking about how the gays are out to "groom" our kids so that they'll join the gay movement and it can become all-powerful, and then hetero-folks will become the minority.

Quote:
That they will abuse my children somehow? Actually, research shows a heterosexual man is the most likely person to molest a child.
Yes, that's true -- so if sexual-orientation is "made" and not inborn, I guess we'd have to say that child-molesters make kids heterosexual, huh?

Quote:
That they will, gasp, learn tolerance for those who are different? How wonderful a thing to learn at an early age.
So true! I'm really happy for your kids.

Quote:
About the only thing they have learned from this that I hate for them to know is that some people dislike their godparents because they are gay. They have, at 5 and 9, learned that in some circles they don't mention these wonderful caring adults because others will get hostile. How sad is that?
Very sad.
post #75 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom View Post
Exactly what should I be afraid of here? That they will "make" my kids gay? No, because its not a choice thing, IMHO.
Oh how sad, I'm now quoting myself!

Anyway, I reread this to realize that it might imply that gay children would somehow be something to be afraid of. Absolutely not -- though it is still harder to be gay than straight in today's world and I, like every other parent, would rather my children have it easier rather than harder.
post #76 of 132
I have not read this thread or the article, but I have read the Bible. Yes, the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin. The Bible also says that lying is a sin and sex outside of marriage is sin and lust is sin and it also says that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23.
post #77 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by christianmomof3 View Post
I have not read this thread or the article, but I have read the Bible. Yes, the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin. The Bible also says that lying is a sin and sex outside of marriage is sin and lust is sin and it also says that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23.
Are you speaking of Leviticus? Just curious because I generally don't pay attention to Leviticus when it tells me how to sacrifice a goat, cut my hair, , cleanse myself during menstruation or pay for a slave - so I'm not sure why I would pay attention to it when it tells me homosexuality is wrong. Especially considering Leviticus is primarily a book written to explain living in an ancient Jewish world and it's advice on other subjects is lengthier than the two lines it devotes to homosexuality.

The Newsweek article might be helpful.
post #78 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by notwonamesalike View Post
Are you speaking of Leviticus? Just curious because I generally don't pay attention to Leviticus when it tells me how to sacrifice a goat, cut my hair, , cleanse myself during menstruation or pay for a slave - so I'm not sure why I would pay attention to it when it tells me homosexuality is wrong. Especially considering Leviticus is primarily a book written to explain living in an ancient Jewish world and it's advice on other subjects is lengthier than the two lines it devotes to homosexuality.
Very good point -- but I don't know if the previous poster will see this, it seems she's not interested in reading the thread, she just wanted to let us know about her interpretation of the Bible.

It's too bad she didn't even have time to read the OP -- because the OP made it clear she'd already heard the arguments made by Christians who believe it's a sin, and was looking to hear from Christians who don't.
post #79 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmostAPpropriate View Post
Oh, and I think we all know what scriptures are used to call it a sin so we dont really need a discussion on why it's wrong. Im looking for what may lead a bible based Christian say its ok.
I thought I'd requote this portion of the OP here, just to help keep us on track.
post #80 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledutch View Post
i was wondering the same thing as the pp that asked you about it, because other than "i'm adam and this is my partner, steve," i couldn't come up with any possible situation in which someone would randomly talk to a child about being gay. thanks for clarifying! actually - i've got one. the only one i can think of is a friend (another child) coming out to your child, but by that point, they would presumably both be at an age where they are already aware of what being gay means, and again it wouldn't be a discussion about sex but about identity. so i just can't think of any other way that someone else's homosexuality could effect your/my child.
yes exactly - it would have a rare instance of affected my child... which was my point of why I wouldn't likely ever say anything to anyone about it. ykwim? I can't even think off hand a good way this would happen. and really, I'd be every bit as peeved if a heterosexual person started talking to my kids about sexuality. and when it comes down to it... perverts are perverts. I've seen people of both sexual identities act inappropriately. I still disagree that's it's biblically acceptable, but that is beside the point. freedom of choice and all that...

I could go more into it... but i'm trying to respect the OP question and not getting why it is wrong as best I can... it just seems to keep heading that way.
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