Bible and homosexuality. - Page 5

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

HennyPenny, I never meant to make you feel I was labeling you or anyone else on the thread a fundamentalist.

thanks I appreciate that a lot actually. It seems to be a common thing said on this forum... referring to fundamentalists as "fundies" in a negative way. but really, I am SURE that many fundamentalists have with sound mind and education chosen that path and i think it should be respected. there is this annoying (and false) notion going around that only stupid people are fundies. and they're all gay bashing hypocrites or somethign terrible. it kinda gets to me honestly. I have a good baptist fundamentalist friend and she is the nicest person I ever met. pretty smart too!

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by notwonamesalike

Are you speaking of Leviticus? Just curious because I generally don't pay attention to Leviticus when it tells me how to sacrifice a goat, cut my hair, , cleanse myself during menstruation or pay for a slave - so I'm not sure why I would pay attention to it when it tells me homosexuality is wrong. Especially considering Leviticus is primarily a book written to explain living in an ancient Jewish world and it's advice on other subjects is lengthier than the two lines it devotes to homosexuality.

The Newsweek article might be helpful.

Homosexuality is not only addressed in the Old Testament, but also in the New.
Here are some of the verses from the New Testament that adress the issue:

1 Tim.1:9 And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,

10 For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,

Notice that homosexuality is listed along with other things that are against healthy teaching such as lying, kidnapping, and hitting parents.

and from

1 Cor 6:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals

10 Nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Very good point -- but I don't know if the previous poster will see this, it seems she's not interested in reading the thread, she just wanted to let us know about her interpretation of the Bible.

It's too bad she didn't even have time to read the OP -- because the OP made it clear she'd already heard the arguments made by Christians who believe it's a sin, and was looking to hear from Christians who don't.

Here is the op:

Ive heard a few times that the bible doesnt actually condemn homosexuality. Im wondering what scriptures are used to back that up? Or is it more of an extrapolation based on the loving nature of God?

The thought came up because of another thread where we talked about the bible not being crystal clear and how its meaning can differ by religion.

Oh, and I think we all know what scriptures are used to call it a sin so we dont really need a discussion on why it's wrong. Im looking for what may lead a bible based Christian say its ok.

Hmm, I would not say that it is ok, but, I also see that in the context that it is presented in the New Testament, it shows that we are all sinners and since homosexuality is listed in the same group with lying, which all of us have done and I would venture to say that most if not all Christians have still done even after being saved, I don't think that homosexuality is a worse sin than lying. They are both wrong in God's eyes.
Anyway, I am sorry if I did not address the op correctly - I guess my view may fall in the middle somewhere - I believe homosexuality is a sin, but like others have said, so are other things that most of us do too.

[mammal_mama]

christianmomof3 -- later when I have more time, I will copy out those same verses from my "Source" New Testament, which is a direct translation from the Greek. All I have time to say now, is that the original verses did not have the word "homosexual" in them.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

I could go more into it... but i'm trying to respect the OP question and not getting why it is wrong as best I can... it just seems to keep heading that way.

I don't know what seems to be heading what way?

I'm just puzzled that when the OP asked to hear from Bible-based Christians who don't believe homosexuality is wrong -- I keep seeing all these responses from the ones who do think it's wrong?

But, anyhow, I will try to come back with those verses sometime later tonight or tomorrow.

[christianmomof3]

sorry to go off topic, but here is one of the verses in several different translations:

1 Timothy 1:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

1 Timothy 1:10 (New International Version - UK)
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers— and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

1 Timothy 1:10 (New American Standard Bible)

10and (A)immoral men and (B)homosexuals and (C)kidnappers and (D)liars and (E)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (F)sound teaching,

1 Timothy 1:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine


so, it can be translated different ways, but the literal one shows what it referred to and the rest do as well. That is from this site http://www.biblegateway.com/ where you can look up a verse in many different translations of the Bible.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

And this is where it gets interesting. Notice that only one of those translations explicitly says "homosexual", and that could be an interpretation of "sodomite". Except that "sodomite" in that time was specifically older men with young boys -- something we would clearly call molestation today. (Yes, I know I need a source for that but I'm sitting at my desk at work and can't right now -- can I promise to come back with it?) Adulterers almost always refers to those who aren't married (to each other) -- that could easily be remedied by allowing same sex marriages. And "perverts" is one of those really wishy-washy words that can mean any number of things, sort of "I know it when I see it".

And given that differences that could be caused by translation or interpretation and so forth, this is why I think that pointing to a single verse (or even small collection of verses) is bound to lead to errors in our understanding. You really can twist any verse to mean whatever you want it to mean -- sort of like you can always find statistics to back up whatever point you want to make.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I don't know what seems to be heading what way?

I'm just puzzled that when the OP asked to hear from Bible-based Christians who don't believe homosexuality is wrong -- I keep seeing all these responses from the ones who do think it's wrong?

yes you're right. It does keep getting off topic. I think the issue comes up a lot when people who see homosexuality as permissible make LARGE negatives assumptions about those who don't feel that way.I try not to assume why others feel the way they do, but it somehow keeps getting brought up that people who feel that it is not permissible are not smart enough to understand the true context of the scriptures which leaves us that a.)aren't stupid and b.)don't believe it's permissible by scriptures feeling me must put forth our 2cents, and yet not interfere with the discussion topic.

I am truly interested in why people feel it's permissible. and i don't wish to argue it, I'm genuinely curious... iron sharpens iron. I like to hear what other's people's study comes up with. it's good to learn from one another. I just don't wish those of us who feel differently to be label as something we are not, nor be represented in a way that isn't true. it would be nice to hear people's thoughts without them bashing those on the other side ykwim?

do you see what Im trying to say?

[Beakybird]

I have been following this thread and thought I would chime in here because I have yet to see anyone who thinks homosexuality is ok in God's eyes post any verses that say such.

I really see no way around it. Take whatever translation you want. We all should know what whoremonger and fornicating means (if we know God). Homosexuality would be considered those because it is unlawful sexual acts, that goes for heterosexual couples as well. I don't know how much clearer God could have made it. The first marriage and every marriage in the Bible was between a man and woman, therefore lawful in God's eyes.

If homosexuals want to pretend to be married it is fine with me, but to say it is ok with God is misrepresenting Him.

Adultery is not those who are unmarried, but those who are married (marriage is a covenant until death). Those who are unmarried is called fornication.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Beakybird

I have been following this thread and thought I would chime in here because I have yet to see anyone who thinks homosexuality is ok in God's eyes post any verses that say such.

I don't think there is a single verse that says it is. But I also don't accept that there is any one single verses that people use to say it is a sin, either. As I said, using single verses to "prove" God's intent regarding anything is inappropriate IMHO.

We all should know what whoremonger and fornicating means (if we know God).

No, actually, we don't all agree on this. Neither whoremongering nor fornicating translates to homosexual sex within a committed relationship to me.

Adultery is not those who are unmarried, but those who are married (marriage is a covenant until death). Those who are unmarried is called fornication.

Adultery is sex between two people who are not married to each other when at least one is married to someone else. Fornication, IMHO, is best translated as casual sex, pretty much centered only in the moment and without thought to the longer-term implications of sexual activity. Again, neither of those automatically condemns homosexual sex for me.

[Beakybird]

[QUOTE=Evan&Anna's_Mom;12775449]I don't think there is a single verse that says it is. But I also don't accept that there is any one single verses that people use to say it is a sin, either. As I said, using single verses to "prove" God's intent regarding anything is inappropriate IMHO.

(I understand if there were only one verse, but no one from the other side has even given one. There is a stack on one side and nothing on the other, logically it does'nt hold water.)


No, actually, we don't all agree on this. Neither whoremongering nor fornicating translates to homosexual sex within a committed relationship to me.

( I don't believe there is such a thing as a "committed relationship" outside of marriage between a man and woman, as defined by God. So you're right there is no way to agree on that. We can either take God at His word or not. You said several times in your response "to me", is'nt the case at hand what the Bible written by God says and not what mere mortals think/feel/choose?)

[swimswamswum]

Originally Posted by Beakybird

I have been following this thread and thought I would chime in here because I have yet to see anyone who thinks homosexuality is ok in God's eyes post any verses that say such.

I really see no way around it. Take whatever translation you want. We all should know what whoremonger and fornicating means (if we know God). Homosexuality would be considered those because it is unlawful sexual acts, that goes for heterosexual couples as well. I don't know how much clearer God could have made it. The first marriage and every marriage in the Bible was between a man and woman, therefore lawful in God's eyes.

If homosexuals want to pretend to be married it is fine with me, but to say it is ok with God is misrepresenting Him.

Adultery is not those who are unmarried, but those who are married (marriage is a covenant until death). Those who are unmarried is called fornication.

I've said this before and I'll say it again-
NOT ALL CHRISTIANS TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many of us know God, believe that God is still speaking to us and believe that God loves all of God's creation, exactly as they were created.

There's biblical support for slavery too if you want to go there. The bible is not the be and end all for all Christians. It is for some, but not for all. Many of us don't take it literally, so your arguments and your presumption that you can speak for God don't apply to our beliefs.

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by swimswamswum

I've said this before and I'll say it again-
NOT ALL CHRISTIANS TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many of us know God, believe that God is still speaking to us and believe that God loves all of God's creation, exactly as they were created.

There's biblical support for slavery too if you want to go there. The bible is not the be and end all for all Christians. It is for some, but not for all. Many of us don't take it literally, so your arguments and your presumption that you can speak for God don't apply to our beliefs.

Thank you so much.

I usually stay out of these threads, they hurt too much. I was raised Roman Catholic, left the church about ten years ago, and am attempting to come back to Christianity. However, I'm afraid and embarassed to align myself with a group that is primarily seen as so fundamental and rabid.

Reading such well thought and tempered responses here on MDC actually gives me hope.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by swimswamswum

There's biblical support for slavery too if you want to go there. The bible is not the be and end all for all Christians. It is for some, but not for all. Many of us don't take it literally, so your arguments and your presumption that you can speak for God don't apply to our beliefs.

ummm I so don't want to get into that one b/c it's so very OT.... but I disagree so very very much. I don't mean to sound cheeky... but I think this is a BIG stretch. (no offense implied, really...). the verses against homosexuality are in a very different context than the ones adress how a servant/slave should treat his master. (I have done studies on this, so I'm not speaking off the cuff or anything... I know it's OT but i had wanted oto say there are those of us who see things from a few prospective. few people (thought some do) read every letter of the Bible without thinking of it's context. but truthfully, even if we desire to understand it, it's not as easy as pie to translate. it's complicated. b/c i disagree with you on this, doesn't mean I disregard your opinions...
-----
again I will say... some of us take the bible literally, historically and allegorically respectively. there is all of that in the Bible. it's clear a lot of people see the Bible in different lights. and we may disagree... that is fine. and expected, but can we please stay away form nasty labels about those who do take the Bible literally or allergorically in whole? otherwise this will turn into a nasty exchange of words instead of the discussion of ideas and thoughts it has been thus far.

(swimswamswum, this wasn't personally aimed at you... I just used you quote )

[mammal_mama]

Hi! I'm back again -- and first off, I want to say I'm sorry I ever used the word "fundie" -- I'd felt okay about it as I'm a former fundamentalist myself, but the convenience isn't worth the risk of hurting others.

Also, I've always seen myself as an intelligent, thoughtful person -- I was in my fundamentalist days, and I still am today. So I don't assume that people who see things differently from me, are dumb or that they don't think things through.

Okay. Here are those verses from the Source translation --

1 Timothy 1:10:

"People who engage in sexual acts against the law of Moses, anal penetrators, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and anything else that is opposed to completely healthy instruction and training."

1 Corinthians 6:9:

"Don't you know that people who are not right with God won't obtain God's Realm as their inheritance? Make no mistake! People who engage in sexual acts against the Law of Moses, idol worshippers, adulterers, receptive male homosexual promiscuous cross dressers, anal penetrators ..."

How we interpret those verses is going to vary from person to person, and couple to couple. For instance, I have Christian friends who feel okay about having marital relations on their periods, and others who don't. It is up to each couple to pray and seek God's guidance as to how to glorify and please Him in their sexual expression.

Just as I don't look at a heterosexual couple and speculate about their sex life, so I don't look at gay/lesbian couples and make assumptions about how they make love. It is simply not my business, it is between each couple and God.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Hi! I'm back again -- and first off, I want to say I'm sorry I ever used the word "fundie" -- I'd felt okay about it as a former fundamentalist myself, but the convenience isn't worth the risk of hurting others. I've always seen myself as an intelligent, thoughtful person -- I was in my fundamentalist days, and I still am today.

please don't think I was picking on YOU. I'm sorry it came across that way. I was speaking generally, not personally. I respect your thoughts a lot because you clearly put a lot of thought into what you think and say. I also am not offended by the word "fundie".... just how I often see it used on this board. the word in and of itself isn't mean... only how it's often used. I quite appreciate you're sincerity about it and your past vs who you are/what you believe now.

[Beakybird]

Originally Posted by swimswamswum

I've said this before and I'll say it again-
NOT ALL CHRISTIANS TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many of us know God, believe that God is still speaking to us and believe that God loves all of God's creation, exactly as they were created.

There's biblical support for slavery too if you want to go there. The bible is not the be and end all for all Christians. It is for some, but not for all. Many of us don't take it literally, so your arguments and your presumption that you can speak for God don't apply to our beliefs.

Well dear you never said it to me before lol . I have heard it from others though and I think they should label themselves as something other than "christian" IMHO. I do not call myself one as neither did the disciples. They were called such by others but it never says they called themselves christians. I believe the goal is to attain to be one not claim to be one and live contrarywise. Saying you don't take it literally is like saying God is sarcastic, or if I say something to you and I really did'nt mean it...no logic in that.

But hey I will give it a rest and you all can get back to quoting nothing or something you don't really believe. The King will be here soon to straighten all this mess out!

[mammal_mama]

Thank you, HennyPenny.

[swimswamswum]

Originally Posted by HennyPenny

ummm I so don't want to get into that one b/c it's so very OT.... but I disagree so very very much. I don't mean to sound cheeky... but I think this is a BIG stretch. (no offense implied, really...). the verses against homosexuality are in a very different context than the ones adress how a servant/slave should treat his master. (I have done studies on this, so I'm not speaking off the cuff or anything... I know it's OT but i had wanted oto say there are those of us who see things from a few prospective. few people (thought some do) read every letter of the Bible without thinking of it's context. but truthfully, even if we desire to understand it, it's not as easy as pie to translate. it's complicated. b/c i disagree with you on this, doesn't mean I disregard your opinions...
-----
again I will say... some of us take the bible literally, historically and allegorically respectively. there is all of that in the Bible. it's clear a lot of people see the Bible in different lights. and we may disagree... that is fine. and expected, but can we please stay away form nasty labels about those who do take the Bible literally or allergorically in whole? otherwise this will turn into a nasty exchange of words instead of the discussion of ideas and thoughts it has been thus far.

(swimswamswum, this wasn't personally aimed at you... I just used you quote )

Meh. I'm just tired of people using Christianity to shield hatred and intolerance. Like I said, I don't take the bible literally, so I don't really care how or what is being quoted- it doesn't apply to me or the Christians I worship with every Sunday- including my -gasp- gay pastor. Also, I think it's interesting that no one addressed the point I made that the bible says nothing about lesbian relationships.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Beakybird

But hey I will give it a rest

Thank you.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Beakybird

(I understand if there were only one verse, but no one from the other side has even given one. There is a stack on one side and nothing on the other, logically it does'nt hold water.)

See, I don't see a "stack" of verses on your side either. They all have issues or questions attached to them and none of the them is as clear as you would like to make out. Or, if they do seem clear to you, then I assume that the adjacent passages in the same scriptures are equally clear and equally valid and I hope you enjoy sacrificing your bulls and stoning people.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "committed relationship" outside of marriage between a man and woman, as defined by God. So you're right there is no way to agree on that.

No problem -- I think it would be perfectly OK for gays to marry and I'm really pleased to have participated in a few ceremonies.

We can either take God at His word or not.

If the choice is to literally assume that the bible is true or not to take it at all, I would chose not, frankly. However, I think that God gave us more than the single tool to understand God's will -- one is scripture, but then we also have the ability to think and reason. And that reason brings me to the conclusion that the bible isn't a static set of laws, nor is it uninfluenced by those who have written it down, interpretted it, translated, and made decisions about what is and isn't included. Its a tool, but its not the only one. So solving this by scripture alone will get us nowhere and we'll have to agree to disagree.