Spin-off: education debt

[AuntNi]

I will probably be kicked off the boards for expressing such a non-feminist-sounding thought. But in reality, I do consider myself a feminist. Please don't take any part of this post as being critical of any choice any woman makes. I'm just thinking "out loud."

I see so many women taking on $tens of thousands, up to $100K+ in student debt. They work a few years, get married, then stay home with their kids. When they go back into their work force, their earning ability is diminished, because they are seen as "less than" for having been out of the corporate workforce. In that case, were the student loans worth it? I almost slapped myself the first time the idea popped into my head, because I sound like an early-1900s patriarch advocating less education for women.

I'm just very torn about school loans for anybody. I took over $30K in school loans, which, due to dumb decisions about consolidating, are STILL not paid off. I've actually worked steadily (until two weeks ago) ever since college, but I've been incredibly lucky in that I've WAH with my DD. I'll be lucky if my loans are completely paid off before MY daughter starts college. I don't know if my loans were worth it. When the time comes for DD to start college, I won't have enough saved to pay her way completely. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I want her to have OPTIONS, without being $100,000 in debt when she graduates. Without a degree, I don't see her having many career options.

I keep coming back to the thought that the glass ceiling can be partly about how society values parenting. When our girls are grown, do you think parenting will still be a totally undervalued career in our society? And how do you make the decision to take on student debt a purely ROI decision?

[CarrieMF]

Well I didn't take on alot of student loan debt, I did 3 years of college & came away with an Accounting diploma & a Management Diploma. My total loans that I had to pay off(some was forgiven) was $21,000. I had them in interest relief for 2 years & still had them paid off 8years after I was done school.

I worked in my field for almost 2 years then stayed home with my kids for 10 years.

I now work in a school, but not doing anything that I took my education for other than taxes for people in the spring.

When I was in highschool I choose a college over a university for 2 reasons -

I didn't want to go to school for 5 more years

College was cheaper but would get me the same type of job

My kids are 6, 7 & 10. Though it'll most likely change, right now all 3 of them want to be teachers. My oldest said she wanted to go to university, in order to do that she'd have to move away & there may or may not be family to stay with depending where she goes. I've explained to her that she can take her first 1-2 years here and then transfer and that it'd be much much cheaper in the long run.


My sister has her RN degree, it cost her approx $80,000 in student loans. She HAD to work between years to help pay her costs, whereas I didn't but did anyhow.

My brother has a degree in computer, in his 3rd year he had to do an internship for 18months. The company offered to pay his books & tuition for 1 more semester she he'd come away with a 3year degree instead of a 4 year degree & then he'd work for them.

There are other options to cut down on the costs of education.

I don't regret going to school, I'm just not interested in that field anymore. My interests change approx every 3 years. I am currently taking some classes & probably will continue to take classes until I'm quite old, most of which will be just for the interest/challenge.

[EFmom]

I don't think the issue is all that much different for women than for men, unless you are a woman who had kids young and stays out of the workforce for a long time.

I work at a university, and I think students overall have been sold a bill of goods that all education debt, no matter how huge and no matter what the degree involved, is "good debt." Some debt is better than other debt, and programs will lead to a better salary than other programs. I don't think taking on $100K in loans to get a PhD in philosophy is a brilliant move on anybody's part.

I see a lot of students who have a very peculiar, almost Peter Pan-ish attitude about debt, with an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of thing. They figure that as long as they can get loans, they don't have to watch their living expenses any too carefully, and they end up with more debt than they need to have. They drive great cars, have ever electronic gadget out there, have fairly nice apartments, etc. Me, I'd rather live a little more carefully and not be saddled with so much debt.

Many women are never SAHMs. I certainly wasn't, so the time out of the workforce wasn't an issue for me. I'm very glad to have my education.

But for those who are, it's always going to be a case by case situation about what the education is worth. If you are going back to school to get a degree that will significantly boost your earning power then in most cases, it's going to be a very good thing. You have to look at how much the degree costs though. For some, it's possible to get the degree part-time and pay it off as you go, without accumulating a lot of debt.

It also depends on how long you plan to be out of the workforce. If you are taking a year or two, then over the long haul, your new improved salary will be well worth it. If you feel you must SAHM until the kids are through college, that's a different story.

We are trying to save enough to put our girls through 4 years at a public college, because like you, I want them to start out not saddled with enormous debt. I also think it's entirely possible to not become a SAHM for years and still be a good parent, so I don't make the automatic assumption that my dds will do that. I know that's MDC blasphemy, but that's me. So, I guess I don't necessarily factor years out of the workforce into the ROI equation.

[Poddi]

I took out a student loan and my degree is definitely not worth it. I only finished university because my parents wanted me to. Luckily it's not very large and I paid it off as quickly as possible. I'm quite happy to be a SAHM right now and don't think about it much. I do know a few families with the moms working and dad staying home. You usually don't know if you'll be staying home or not while in college.

I personally think people should really only take large loans if their target careers have very high earnings or often with large bonuses, stock options...etc. I don't mean to offend but if you're studying to be a teacher or social worker, do all you can to minimize the loan, because there probably won't be too many windfalls in those careers.

[mamabain]

i don't think it matters about SAHMs. i am giving everyone the same advice:

don't get in debt for college or university. pay as you go or get minimal loans, even if it takes longer to graduate.

we have not followed this advice and my dh's two masters degrees have left us with ~$60K in debt. no significant increase in salary for the second master's degree, either. our payments are over $400 per month and it does not seem worth it.

in retrospect, he agrees with me that taking out loans to the extent that we did was not a good idea.

as for my girls, i'd like to be able to help them through college, but don't know if that is going to be possible. as others have stated, 2 year degrees or community colleges also give degrees that depending on the field, unless you are in some specialized field like medicine or law, work just as well as degrees from private or ivy league schools.

this school debt has us living paycheck to paycheck on a good salary. we don't have cells, cable, newer cars, money to eat out, etc. and still can barely make ends meet.

[Seasons]

I thank my stars for student loans and my grad-school-enabled career: without it, once my husband left me, my abilities to support my family would, um, suck rocks.

All adults should have the ability to fully support themselves and any dependents, whether or not they currently choose to WOH. You never know when divorce, death, disability or dis economy (I needed another "d" for alliteration ) will REQUIRE you to work. And do you want the paycheck (and pride) that comes with a nametag, or the one that comes with grad school loans? Exactly.

Oh, and I paid off all my my college AND grad school loans within two years of graduation. And while at a gov't (= low-paying) job!

[philomom]

No, we didn't get into the student loan trap. My hubby had a full scholarship.. I worked to pay the rent.. he went to school. When he got his first real job, I went to school. So, between the scholarship and taking turns... we had no piles of debt like some.

[Sailor]

Personally, I do not think college is for everyone - whether you're male or female. I regret even going to college at all. I wasted so much time there, and so much money.

And, for what?

I always knew I wanted to work for myself, and there was no way in heck I was going to work a "regular" job. I did wind up working three regular jobs to pay off my student loan debt (hence the regret of going to college). But, after that, I started up a VERY small home business. And that grew ... all the way up to the point that, now, I can support myself only on this business.

I work for myself, and the fact that I dropped out of college and have no degree means NOTHING.

My partner has his own business as well (bigger than mine). And he works for himself. The fact that he has a degree also means NOTHING because he is his own boss. No one ever asks him for his qualifications. His experience speaks for itself.

I worked at Harper Collins for a bit right after I dropped out of college. I was actually surprised how many people did NOT have degrees in that industry. The job requirements were always cited as "a degree OR X amount of years of experience."

Now, just because I dropped out doesn't mean I haven't continued my education. I'm a total bookworm - I read A LOT - from religious studies to philosophy to literature. I'm always researching things of interest to me. I'm editing up a book that I wrote (and hope to have published). I enjoy intellectual debates, etc.

So, personally, I don't think college is for everyone and I think there is a myth out there in the world that says: you will get nowhere without a college degree. This is not true.

However, if a person is going into a specialized field, i.e. medicine, psychology, etc., then obviously university is mandatory.

My thinking has always been this - if a woman wants to be a SAHM, that's great. But, in the case of a serious emergency (death, abuse, divorce, wanting out, etc.) she absolutely NEEDS something on which to fall back on. I know so many women who are so dependant on their husband's income that they can't leave him. As otherwise they would wind up in a homeless shelter. In some of these cases, abuse is involved.

I think it's smart for a SAHM to have a back up plan. Always leave yourself an emergency exit. In my case, that's 6 month's living expenses in savings in my name only as well as the ability to support myself either due to my home business now or the medical transcription certification I have (and keep up with).

I will never need that money (considering my partner is the most honorable man I've ever known) ... but, I believe in preparing for the worst, and striving for the best.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sailor

So, personally, I don't think college is for everyone and I think there is a myth out there in the world that says: you will get nowhere without a college degree. This is not true.

I agree with this, and I am very grateful we do not have huge student loans to pay off. I can't imagine, honestly. DH makes a good amount of money and does not have a college degree. It might not be a common thing, but it worked out well for him.

That all said, I really want to go back to school myself and plan to in the next few years. But I will do so slowly, paying for each class with cash, TYVM cause accruing any debt right now is just not a good idea.

ETA: I personally, knew that I wanted to be a sahm and sooner rather than later (we started at age 21) but a lot of young people plan to have a career, then start a family and realize they have a strong desire to stay home. Other's continue to work because they have to or want to. I suppose all that should be factored in when deciding whether or not to take out student loans, but honestly, most people just don't think that far in advance. yk?

[AuntNi]

You guys have given such great food for thought - thanks!

In our case, I took out $30K for my master's degree in music. Pretty useless degree. Except that I just hung up with a HR lady whose attitude totally changed when I said I had a master's degree. I have felt like the master's gives me a leg up, at least on paper, sometimes.

DH took out $30K to finish his B.S. in management, because he was getting nowhere without that piece of paper. His was totally worth it, because within 18 months, he landed a job that paid $15K more than his old job.

EFMom, I totally agree that SAH is not the end-all, be-all for everyone. If I hadn't had my WAH job, I would have had to WOH. Personally, I am glad I had that piece of paper that enabled me to find my great WAH job.

And it does seem like you need that diploma to get any kind of decent job. I feel like a B.S. in the 2000s is like a HS diploma in the 1960s. And a master's nowadays is more like a B.S. in the 1970s-80s. But when you consider that a B.S. is more like a HS diploma used to be, should it really cost $100K?

Mamabain, right now, I'm leaning toward steering DD toward a local community college and living at home for at least the first couple of years.

And Poddi, you have a very good point about not knowing whether or not you'll want to be a SAHM or SAHD while you're still in school. Heck, I have tons of friends who swore they were coming back to work the day before they went into labor, then changed their mind after Baby came.

I guess I feel like student debt has been marketed for so long as "good debt" that people (including me) just mindlessly sign up for WAAAAAY too much, without ever considering the ROI. And I feel like you can't consider the ROI until you have some sort of idea of your earning power and your life priorities. I wish there was some kind of formula, like when you buy a house, the purchase price shouldn't be more than 2x your annual income. Why can't student loans be capped like, "You're going to be a teacher. Your starting salary will be x. So your education should cost no more than y." EFMom, I know you were joking about the PhD in Philosophy, but I have a friend whose DH has that very degree. Know what he's doing? Manual labor on a barge on the Mississippi River.

[Natsuki]

I think that student loans can be a helpful thing or a bad thing - and it really depends on how much and what they are for.

My DH graduated with $15,000 in student loan debt. Him having the college education has enabled him to earn $45,000/year in the IT field (with excellent benefits) which enables me to stay at home (i work part-time).

We got his loans consolidated at 2% fixed interest : on a 15 year repayment plan. We pay $99/month in student loans and that is our only debt aside from a mortgage.

In our situation his degree was definitely worth it b/c of the work experience he gained at his college's IT department which led to his current job. He spent two semesters trying to work his way through college without loans and drove himself into exhaustion, sleep deprivation, and depression - the loans were more than worth him getting some sanity back to focus on school and work part-time instead of trying to carry a full class load and work the night shift.

I did not have any loans b/c I had a college fund and scholarships, but if I had taken out some loans (let's say $10,000 worth) I think that would have been worth it b/c my earning potential is actually pretty high - I make $40/hour working part-time in the field of language education.

Both DH and I made it a priority to come out of college with usable, marketable skills (we also both had majors that were 'fun' - history and philosophy - but that wasn't our whole education. I also have a spanish degree and am bilingual with a lot of office experience, he had multiple years in the IT department at his college getting trained in that field which is where he still works 10 years later).

I have friends on the other hand who graduated with $40,000 in loans, $50,000 in loans - and that's just so much $$ per month they're paying per month. Our payments are so low and reasonable they don't seem like a negative at all - we make more in our savings account in interest than we pay in our student loan debt (which is why we're not paying it off early).

[zinemama]

I graduated with 10K of student loans. I had an English degree. Now I sah. Do I consider that wasted? Hell, no! I worked for 13 years before I became a sahm and I paid off my debt during that time. It wasn't hard to do, and I even got to defer it for the three years I was in the Peace Corps. I will never regret getting a college education which enriched me so much and continues to do so.

That said, it is a shame that so many kids who want to get that same education will have to take out way bigger loans than I did. My parents did not save a penny toward my college education. Dh and I, on the other hand, are socking away as much as we can for our boys.

[Belleweather]

Originally Posted by Seasons

I thank my stars for student loans and my grad-school-enabled career: without it, once my husband left me, my abilities to support my family would, um, suck rocks.

All adults should have the ability to fully support themselves and any dependents, whether or not they currently choose to WOH. You never know when divorce, death, disability or dis economy (I needed another "d" for alliteration ) will REQUIRE you to work. And do you want the paycheck (and pride) that comes with a nametag, or the one that comes with grad school loans? Exactly.

Oh, and I paid off all my my college AND grad school loans within two years of graduation. And while at a gov't (= low-paying) job!

All I have to say to this is: WORD.

I have a ton of school debt, from my undergraduate (in Philosophy -- don't knock it! ) and from Law School.

On one hand, I am kind of bitter that I haven't been able to stay at home or work more flexibly while my kiddos are little. But to be completely balls-to-the-wall honest, that has less to do with my student loans than it does with marrying for love... but marrying a man who doesn't have a defined, high earning career that can support us. I make roughly twice what DH does, and will for quite a while.

On the other hand, I made the decision to go to Law School NOT because of some whim, but because I wanted to be completely sure, deep in my bones, that I would never be in the position my mom was in when my Dad left her -- supporting two kids on >$12k/year, with no child support, an enormous mortgage, a ton of debt, and half a BA in Art History. As much as it pains me to miss their babyhood, in terms of my career the amount of time I'll have small kids in the home is reasonably small. It seems to me that it would be pretty dumb to avoid making educational choices that can make your life better over the 40 years of your career for the sake of 5-10 years you've got small kids at home.

[not now]

I got my RN with only a $12,000 loan. The course was so demanding and required so much time (study, lecture, clinical) that working was hard but I did manage to work. At first I didn't want a loan but after one semester of working 32 hours a week from 3PM - 11PM (and getting up at 4AM to go to clinic three days a week) I was hurting. One of my instructors actually told me "You look like your working 50 hours a week" I was pretty beat. I basically took out my loan to cover what bills my paycheck couldn't. My monthly payment is so low I often double or triple the amount when I pay it. I have a well paying, secure job that I love. Totally worth the loan. I work one or two days a week to keep up my skills so if/when I decide to go full-time I'll be up to date.

[bobandjess99]

I do have a completely different view now.
I have $30K+ in loans for not much of anything.
I will encourage dd and ds to go to cheaper, community college options, and only to pursue college IF and when they feel it is right..NOt just because "you have to go to college to make something of yourself"

[Amylcd]

I only took out 6K and it was not worth it to me.

[serenekitten]

Originally Posted by Amylcd

I only took out 6K and it was not worth it to me.

Ditto -- my loans and interest are well over $7k, right now, on top of $2k that should have been covered by work-study (I, er... didn't do it, because I'm young and stupid). And that was only for one year, in which I was stuck in core classes I despised and the classes I liked didn't count towards a useful major.

[MamaChel]

Well, I'm in a field that is licensed by degree and all the experience in the world won't get you a job without the degree. That said I didn't take loans until my last two years of the degree because I didn't need them.

I agree that there are jobs where experience in lieu of a degree may be the way to go. Unfortunately many people are not allowed to get the experience without the degree so it's a catch-22.

[notkept]

Originally Posted by Seasons

I thank my stars for student loans and my grad-school-enabled career: without it, once my husband left me, my abilities to support my family would, um, suck rocks.

All adults should have the ability to fully support themselves and any dependents, whether or not they currently choose to WOH. You never know when divorce, death, disability or dis economy (I needed another "d" for alliteration ) will REQUIRE you to work. And do you want the paycheck (and pride) that comes with a nametag, or the one that comes with grad school loans? Exactly.

Oh, and I paid off all my my college AND grad school loans within two years of graduation. And while at a gov't (= low-paying) job!

Yup. I blew off college after my first two years...and then another year in a different program. I eventually married and had two kids. The divorced. NOW, I'm finishing my degree. Not so fun. I'm SO SO lucky that my XH pays a substantial sum in CS, otherwise the struggle would be much worse.

[Fuamami]

I agree that it depends on what you get your degree on. As they say around here, the only thing my degree is worth is hanging it on my rear-view mirror so I can park in handicapped parking. My sister however, recently told my mom, "I'm so glad I have that law degree from [excellent law school here] so I never have to clean my house. She is a SAHM, but paid off her debt long ago. I was sure to pass that little nugget onto my kids. I was loathe to take on any debt in college, other than a small amount of credit card debt, and my ROI is very, very low.