Spin-off: education debt - Page 2

[MCsMom]

I honestly do not think that taking on huge sums of money for school is a very smart thing for anyone male or female to do. If a person has a passion to do something, then yes, I think they should make it happen, but honestly, even going to law school, grad school, med school can be done without a mommy/daddy paying for it or going into debt.

Yes, my DH and I both 100% paid for schooling to include graduate degrees for both of us from a private university, and at the most, we had less then 8000 debt for the BOTH of us that was paid off in under a year for our undergraduate degrees.

And no, I don't feel my MBA is 'wasted' even if I am a SAHM. For one thing it does a great job of shocking people who try to make me feel bad for 'just' being a SAHM. The ROI is fantastic for me.

[sofiabugmom]

At this point, I'd be encouraging anyone, male or female, to take a good, hard look at the current environment before taking on any major debt, especially student loans.

To the OP: I don't think you're being anti-feminist in your viewpoint. You're not advocating that your daughter stays out of college, you're worried about her debt versus her career options.

As you mentioned, you want your daughter to have choices. If your daughter is in debt in the amount of five to six figures for her education and the job market is lousy, what kinds of choices would she have at that point, regardless of whether or not she becomes a parent?

As far as the ROI, it's just such a difficult call. One generation ago, going into debt for medical school was a no-brainer. Sure, it cost a bundle, but you'd make a bundle once you had "MD" after your name. Nowadays, many doctors are lucky if they break even just from malpractice premiums. A decade ago, an MBA or an MS in the computer field was a surefire way to get a good starting salary. Now, not so much.

Guess I'm rambling. But it's been something on my mind a bit in that I don't want DD to have massive debts for the sake of her education like I did.

[RGsMom]

I came out w/ almost $12000 in debt for a Music degree and while that degree choice may have not helped me get a job elsewhere that I desired (accounting), it did give me more credentials as a private piano/voice teacher. (5 years later, it's less than $6000)

I think there is a limit to how much debt you should take out, I paid for my college and living and plan on allowing my kids to do the same. I worked hard through my highschool years and paying for my own college I think helped me appreciate it more. I know those that do have their way paid also appreciate it, but there are too many people I met who "didn't know what they were going to do" cuz they were getting "drunk" out of college and well their parents were paying their way. They didn't have to work or anything in school, just go and enjoy. Where I also worked while in school cuz I "had" to. Didn't have to - I could have taken a LOT more out in loans, I qualified for a lot more even the no interest accumulation stuff until I graduated, but I just took out what I needed and working each month and summer paid my dorms or rent.

Did I need a degree to give private lessons? No. How many students do I have right now? None, lol....

Was it worth it? Yes. I learned a lot more about myself in that time, grew in my relationship w/ the Lord, continually learned to be fiscally responsible and well, there's no way I would've met DH without it. I transferred Universities after 3 years and while we met at a church in the area cuz he didn't go to my school, I would've never gone there had I not transferred schools and lived down there.

Funny thing is, he has an Associates, I have a Bachelors - he's always had a full time job and me, I couldn't find one for the life of me before we had our daughter! Though you could also say I got the M.R.S. degree lol... not what I was going for, but definitly wasn't opposed to it.

Oh and we wouldn't take out anything again for student loans, nothing that we didn't know we couldn't pay back right away anyhow (like if it was 0% and then we paid it right away). DH does want to get a Bachelors still, but we're not in a hurry and it'll probably wait til after the kids aren't so young anymore!

[sanguine_speed]

Education for me is not just about job prospects. I value education for itself. I think a lot of problems we have in society are due to lack of education, and ability to think critically. What is that worth in dollars and cents?
I just finished 2 university degrees, and had my third baby at the end of my last semester (actually he came early, so mid-semester, but that's neither here nor there). So, after my last class toward my last degree (so far), I am a SAHM with three kids. Oh, except that I continue to take a couple of classes because I love to learn in an academic environment. I have an exam tonight, in fact. I do not use daycare for this. I do it when the kids are sleeping.
I have more student debt than anyone who has posted her numbers in this thread, and I'm fine with that. To me, the bottom line is that if we say that only those who won't go into debt should pursue post-secondary education, we are saying only the well-off should learn in an academic setting. And isn't that how we ended up in this kind of society?
Education is important. I would give up a lot before I'd give that up.

[swimswamswum]

I'm currently not employed. I'm finishing a dissertation and staying home with DD. Even if I took more time off it wouldn't be permanent- I plan on going back to work someday. My guess is that most SAHMs will return to the workforce at some point in their lives.

If I never work out of the home again, it was still money, energy, and time well spent. I volunteer, interact with other people, do advocacy work and parent my child and my education helps me with all of these things.

I am really lucky that I don't have much debt. My parents paid for my undergraduate degree and I had assistantships where I worked to cover my graduate tuition. I do have some debt from grad school that we're paying now. I don't regret it at all.

ETA: I also think having an education helps women have more equitable partnerships- even if they're staying home. The fact that I could support our family is powerful and the fact that I could leave with DD if things got really bad is also important. My mom's very practical and made damn sure that her daughters had educations and the ability to support themselves because life can bring a lot of surprises and bad things happen.

[kanga1622]

DH and I both got B.S. degrees and had a combined ~$15,000 in student loan debt. It was paid off within two years of graduation (even though DH was only working part-time for minimum wage after he graduated). Student loan debt used wisely and taking out the minimum rather than the max can be a great asset to a family. Now neither of us work in our field of study but our degrees helped us get to where we are and start out at a higher pay scale than if we didn't have degrees.

I work with graduate students and the majority of them have $30,000+ in undergraduate loans and then take out an additional $30,000 or more for grad school. What they fail to realize is that if they were more wise in their choices or worked part time to help pay the bills, they could have a much easier time paying back those loans.

Unfortunately, many young students don't understand how the repayment works before they sign for these big checks to pay for their tuition, housing, food, clothes, gifts, cars, etc. I personally know many people that graduated with a B.S. in education with $75,000+ in student loans. You tell me how they are going to pay that back on a $27,000 per year beginning salary.

[claddaghmom]

I disagree with taking on debt for school whether you will be a SAHM or in the workplace.

That being said, neither DH nor I have made it through the process without taking going into some debt. Together, it's less than 8k and interest-paid. I think that's an amount to be proud of, considering we are both hoping to finish our master's.

I started my degree already knowing that I wasn't going to see a monetary investment from it. I hope to do volunteer work. Maybe I'll get a small income from it. But I doubt it and that wasn't my reasoning for doing it.

DH says he chose his degree b/c he wants to make tons and tons of green, lol. I can't be unhappy about that.

Go to the community college for two years. Transfer to an obscure state college. Some of those colleges will take 3 years from the community college. Take online classes. Work and enjoy your interests while in school...that looks much better than any piece of paper (except for lawyers and doctors haha).

[JenniferH]

In hindsight, I should have done work-study, but I had a full time job waiting tables/bartending and making pretty good money for a college student. I got some scholarships, but because I transferred out of the CC before my two years was up, I lost part of one. That never really made any sense to me. I was ready to go to a bigger school, but I didn't get to keep my scholarship to do it.

Anyway, I have almost $10K in SL debt that I wish I'd never taken. My parents didn't have any money saved up and the year I moved out was the year they made enough money that I didn't qualify for grants. You still have to show your parents' income if you are under 21. That always ticked me off too. I was living and working on my own, but I still had to show their income on the FAFSA, even though they weren't really helping me out.

I plan to sock away as much money as possible for my DD's education so she doesn't start off in the hole like I did. She's already half way there at age 9! I'm in school myself and luckily I'm going on a Pell right now. When I go back (after I move), I will probably have to take out loans or pay out of pocket.

I really don't want to take on any more debt, but I'm going to nursing school. The $$ potential there is much more than what I make now.

[Caneel]

Originally Posted by EFmom

I work at a university, and I think students overall have been sold a bill of goods that all education debt, no matter how huge and no matter what the degree involved, is "good debt." Some debt is better than other debt, and programs will lead to a better salary than other programs. I don't think taking on $100K in loans to get a PhD in philosophy is a brilliant move on anybody's part.

I couldn't agree more. I volunteer at a local university and students today don't seem to have a grip on reality.

Example - a four year elem. ed. teaching degree from the school where I volunteer will cost around $200,000

At a highly regarded state school right up the road, the same degree would be around $30,000 yet there are so many students that think they absolutely have to graduate from $$$$$ university as it must be better than the state school.

Originally Posted by EFmom

I see a lot of students who have a very peculiar, almost Peter Pan-ish attitude about debt, with an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of thing. They figure that as long as they can get loans, they don't have to watch their living expenses any too carefully, and they end up with more debt than they need to have. They drive great cars, have ever electronic gadget out there, have fairly nice apartments, etc. Me, I'd rather live a little more carefully and not be saddled with so much debt.

Again, agree based on my experiences and interactions with today's students. It is nuts what some of these kids drive/buy/carry on their arms/etc.

Further, I think many (including my own family members) view master's and phd programs as the only path in life. The debt further mounds up until they are six figures deep in student loans and working at the local big box because there is little demand in their living area for PHDs in fine arts.

I truly believe education is never wasted (and that includes some master and phd programs) but I think both men and women really need to evaluate the cost/benefit of taking on debt for higher education, especially from a particular school. I see so many incoming students hung up on the "dream school" issue.

[AuntNi]

Originally Posted by Caneel

I truly believe education is never wasted (and that includes some master and phd programs) but I think both men and women really need to evaluate the cost/benefit of taking on debt for higher education, especially from a particular school. I see so many incoming students hung up on the "dream school" issue.

You did a great job expressing my views. My question was definitely not pro/con education. If money were no object, I would probably be a professional student, earning degree after degree until I croak. I loved college, even more so when I went back and took a couple classes for work. It's just the massive debt loads that boggle my mind.

[Belleweather]

Originally Posted by Caneel

I truly believe education is never wasted (and that includes some master and phd programs) but I think both men and women really need to evaluate the cost/benefit of taking on debt for higher education, especially from a particular school. I see so many incoming students hung up on the "dream school" issue.

I think you've got to be aware of whether you're in a field where the name of your school really matters. In elementary/secondary teaching? Not so much. In Law? OMG, YES. I could have gone to a fourth tier school on 100% scholarship, but I can promise you that I wouldn't have gotten the jobs that I've gotten just on virtue of the fact that my degree is from a well regarded Top 15 state school. There are some jobs where it really does make a difference.

[mnt_mommy]

I have taken the totally upside-down approach to college, but it's working okay!

I worked 25-30 hours a week to get my A.A. Been there, done that. I really wish I could have been more mentally engaged with the classes, instead of doodling my budget in the the margin of my notes. Paycheck, utilities, a new pair of shoes badly needed, increased fees next semester. . .
No debt, did it at a community college. Gave birth to ds in time for graduation.

My family has always expected me to get a BA or BS in anything that interested me- but it has to be at the 4-yr level. So I am now taking night classes at a great private university. It's a program for working adults. Tuition is 10k/yr. I pay 1k a yr out of pocket- the rest is scholarship and Pell Grant.
Pell is the "Completely Broke" Grant, for those who don't know.
My dp is presently in law school, landing us firmly in the Completely Broke Category. *edited: a 2nd tier, 35k/yr private school, for what it's worth. Not ivy league, but nicely kept lawns around here
We are going 60-70k in debt for this, including drawing living expenses. But the strategy is that he is in a program to work for a non-profit, pay 10% of his income for 10 years, and have the balance forgiven at the end of year 10. AS LONG AS HE IS REALLY OKAY WITH NONPROFIT, then I think the plan is good....

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by sofiabugmom

Sure, it cost a bundle, but you'd make a bundle once you had "MD" after your name. Nowadays, many doctors are lucky if they break even just from malpractice premiums. .

OT, but isn't this just really mostly a rumor? Kind of like the OB shortage? All the docs I know seem to be doing just fine.

[velochic]

This is kind of black and white, but it truly is my opinion. People always CHOOSE to go into debt. Whether that is for a car or an education or a home or a plasma TV. There is *always* another way to fund what you want. If you think there is no other way, then you just haven't been innovative enough. That sounds harsh, but it's the truth. You can get through school without loans. I did and many others here did. I'd hate to see anyone forgo an education because they think it requires being in debt. It's also why, being the closet socialist that I am, I think the government should foot some of the bill.

[slsurface]

Originally Posted by mamabain

i don't think it matters about SAHMs. i am giving everyone the same advice:

don't get in debt for college or university. pay as you go or get minimal loans, even if it takes longer to graduate.

I completely agree. I also agree with velochic's post, above.

I got my undergraduate degrees at a community college in order to pay for it all myself. I worked three jobs, drove a crappy 1970s car, and lived with my parents so that I could afford school. I didn't take out any student loans.

But I knew that my career necessitated at least a Masters, preferably a PhD - so I waited to take out loans in grad school. I've worked through every year of graduate school (excluding the year DS was born) and took out a minimum of loans because I know that my academic career path won't pay well enough to make $100K of loans worth it. I have less than $16K in student loans after 9 years of graduate education for both my MA and PhD. DH and I think of my student loan debt as equivalent to a small car loan - we didn't want to deal with more than that as a payment each month.

I think the key is 1) knowing how much your career will pay and 2) how much education is needed for that career path. If you only need a BA or associates and you know you'll be paid well, then it's ok to take out small loans. But if you need a PhD, get a cheaper undergraduate education and save your loans for grad school (unless you know you will be paid very well after you get your PhD). In the end, you have to be aware of the debt you are taking on and be comfortable with that amount of debt. Remember that student loans never go away, not even with bankruptcy. The only way to get out of student loans is death (not to be morbid or anything ).

[sofiabugmom]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

OT, but isn't this just really mostly a rumor? Kind of like the OB shortage? All the docs I know seem to be doing just fine.

Just to address: I have a few friends who are doctors (GP/IM types) and are paying high premiums. They're making a decent gross income but watching a lot of it go out the door to insurance companies.

I'm not saying all doctors are in this situation, but going into hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt for medical school isn't necessarily going to pay off in the future with a high net income.

[Caneel]

Originally Posted by Belleweather

I think you've got to be aware of whether you're in a field where the name of your school really matters. In elementary/secondary teaching? Not so much. In Law? OMG, YES. I could have gone to a fourth tier school on 100% scholarship, but I can promise you that I wouldn't have gotten the jobs that I've gotten just on virtue of the fact that my degree is from a well regarded Top 15 state school. There are some jobs where it really does make a difference.

I agree 100% that schools do matter in some areas such as law, med, tech, etc. I just didn't include that in my post. I have no doubt that six figure student loan debt for a Harvard (or other high profile school) law or med student isn't that big of a deal in the long run if one's desired career path takes them down the road to big $.