How to discuss non-circ with Muslim family? - Page 2

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by umsami
I don't agree with Babies undergoing circumcision (or any other operation) without anesthesia, for one thing. And the practice of that happening has begun to change in recent years, Thank G-d! (n part, thanks to the AAP statement in 1999)

Yes, but 75% of baby boys are still circumcised with no pain relief whatsoever.

There have been proven health benefits to circumcision (increased incidence of UTI's among uncircumcised men, risk of certain STDs)... but one can argue (and I agree) that those benefits are not enough to warrent circumcision of all males.

The AAP and AMA disagree with you on this one. They have found no proven evidence of this being true. That's why they have said "potential" in their statement. Sorry, but I'll believe them over you any day.

Regarding the Impotence and Adult Circumcision comment, check out the following, http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/stinson/ As I said in my original post, it is mainly believed to be psychological.

And how much research did you have to bypass to find that? The fact is circumcision desensitizes and therefore promotes impotence regardless of whether it is done as an infant, child or adult. Check out the research you bypassed by Laumann, McGrath and Cold & Taylor

Yes, babies do become sexually arroused, masturbate, etc. The issue is rupture of the suture line--which does not occur with infant's who are circumcised as sutures are not used!

Babies masturbate? Never heard of that before. Is this something you have seen with your own eyes? You are right that babies are not normally sutured but the cut line can and does rupture. This happened earlier this year in British Columbia and the baby bled to death. Also, adults are given medication that prevents erection during the recovery period to prevent just what you have described

You may also want to seek out the advice of an Imam (Muslim religious leader) to see if he can offer any advice in dealing with your in-laws. If at all possible, seek out a Pakistani Imam--who may understand your In-Laws culture more than a Muslim of a different background.

Of course! And what do you think he will recommend? Your intentions are quite transparent.

you really are best to take this article to an Imam for verification. If he's Pakistani, perhaps he can help draft something for you in Urdu. As an Imam/Shaykh... your in-laws may respect his opinion more than if you just presented the argument yourselves.

Ah, yes! And she will have no idea what he has written and what message he, not she, is sending them. Like I said before, your intentions are quite transparent.

The name of this forum is "The Case Against Circumcision." It is clear that you are making a case FOR circumcision and additionally, you are giving advise that if followed, would result in this child being circumcised. It is also clearly noted at the top of this board that discussions of circumcision are off limits and you have flagrantly violated this prohibition in your zeal to promote the genital alteration of males.




Frank

[Xenogenesis]

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Yes, but 75% of baby boys are still circumcised with no pain relief whatsoever.

Of the 25% who do receive pain relief how do they communicate if the anesthetic is effective? Does the doc stop cutting the baby's genitals to administer more?

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by Last Minute
Of the 25% who do receive pain relief how do they communicate if the anesthetic is effective? Does the doc stop cutting the baby's genitals to administer more?

Of course not! What planet are you from? The doctors have little compassion for the child and there are no repercussions. That child that is in immeasurable pain will never come back and bring legal action against the doctor! At least, that's what they think but that is changing. Once the circumcision is started, there is no stopping it. Even if the parents were standing there objecting, the doctor is not going to stop. He has administered the maximum safe amount of pain relief and administering more could endanger the life of the baby. He's in a "Catch 22." He's going to tell the parents that the baby is just angry about being tied down.




Frank

[Sara29]

Hello!
My dh is a muslim turk and circumcision has been brought up by me often.His family assumes we will raise the children muslim,and I am sure they will want to host a *cutting party* when my boy reaches 5+(I would never allow my son to visit them!).When that time comes I will stand my ground with his family and dh if needed. I had a falling out with my in-laws when they refused to call him by his first name,so if they get more angry with me over religion and circumcision big deal. I can definately live without them.Like I told my dh,"This family of four comes first.What your parents,or mine expect from us is irrelevant."

I see for you that being on good terms with the in-laws is important,but it looks as if they will only be happy if you do what is expected-what they did for their children. Your son comes first,so decide what is best for him.Maybe you can come to a middle ground as Frank mentioned. I spent the summer looking into religious circ issues.It just seems so weird that people still believe it is a good thing to hold your child down and cut at their genitals! I no longer practice judaism,and my dh was just a muslim by birth anyway-non-practicising(but he doesn't like to rock the parental boat).We looked into other religions,but at this moment decided none is better.

I have not had a single problem with infections or anything in regards to my son's penis.My dd has had more problems!

I wish you the best.Peace in the family,and intactness for your son.
Sara
Oh I wanted to add that my dh's parents typically arrange marriage too.His brother and sister had partners picked by the parents.His sister will be married in April,and the parents want to fly us over there.Dh can go if he wants(no kids),but the whole time they will just pressure him to move back home.They were not happy with dh marrying me or staying in the US.He only came here for school,and then never returned home.I had nothing to do with that.I think he just could not take the parental control.

[Frankly Speaking]

It appears in both of these cases that the parents are determined to continue to control the children's life just as if they were still minors. They did as they saw fit with their children and that was their family. These are your families and you are the decision makers for your own families. Do what you feel is best for your families.

My own mother had a controlling personality. It wasn't malicious and in her eyes, it was for my own good because she had many more years of experience than I did. However, the times of her experiences and the times of my life were very different and the solutions to the problems were different and only decisions I could make. She resisted my own self control for many years but when I started coming around less and told her that I had to have my own experiences and make my own mistakes and take responsibility for them, she relented and our relationship became much closer and she realized what she had been doing. Her trying to control my life had been driving a wedge between us.

Maybe your in-laws will come to the same realization and everyone will be happier for it.



Frank

[AnnMarie]

Originally posted by umsami
Do know that if your son decides to be circumcised at a later age (adult), that it is a much more difficult procedure.

I'm wondering, have you read this?

http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/...chive/circ.htm

Seems the complication rates of office and OR circs are the same according to this study.

[cwaddick]

I had a girl on New Year's Eve!

I was so surprised (and relieved) to have girl. I spent so much time worrying that I would have a boy, and that we wouldn't have an appropriate cross-cultural name for him and that I would have to start an argument about circumcision in DH's family. I decided to not cirumcise, but DH and I never discussed it because I was afraid to bring it up and start an argument between us.

With your help, I gathered a lot of information about circ and Islam. I will post it here soon.

Especially now that DD2 is a girl, I think that I do want to bring up the non-circ issue with DH and his family. DH does not want us to have a third child, but I do, and you never know. Moreover, now that I feel strongly about the issue, I want to help get the Islamic community thinking about it, even if all I do is stimulate discussion within DH's family.

I am still pretty ttired in the post-partum phase... but I hope to post again soon.

-- Caitlin

[Quirky]

Congratulations on your new baby! I hope you're enjoying your sweet newborn!

[Foobar]

Congrats on the birth of your daughter!

I was planning to simply leave it in the hands of your son (which is a girl! ) and when he becomes an adult in the Muslin community, he can make that decision.

[mattemma04]

Congrats on the birth of your dd.
Sara

[r+smom2]

I totally understand what you are saying but you and your husband is the parents and must do what is right for your child and not no one else no matter how different their opinions may be.

God is good.

Good Luck
Fay

[AutumnSunshine]

I know I'm coming in so late on this topic that maybe nobody will even see this, but I just wanted to point out a few things I think were missed here:

1) The links that were posted are not representative of mainstream Islamic thought. The mandate for circumcision comes from statements of the Prophet which, in mainstream Sunni Islam, is the second half of the source for Islamic law along with the Qur'an. The "Qur'an only" sect is a very tiny group with very few followers.

2) There is no exact statement by the Prophet as to the exact reason for circumcision, so although we can *speculate* that it's for cleanliness reasons, we don't know that for sure. IF cleanliness is one of the reasons, it's because a person's prayer is invalid if there are any traces of urine left on their body and shaving of pubic hair and (for men) circumcision would facilitate this cleaning. Other than that, we know that this is something God has requested and we need to follow that regardless of the reasons.

3) The type of circumcisions practiced by Western doctors today (using the Gomco clamp or Plastibell methods) are extremist and go way beyond the traditional method done in Muslim countries where doctors haven't taken over circumcision. Instead they use what is basically the Mogen clamp method where only a tiny portion of the bottom of the foreskin is removed, as opposed to the whole thing all the way up the shaft of the penis which is what the other two methods do. As Islam prohibits unnecessary mutilation of the body, my personal opinion is that those two methods are Islamically unacceptable.

So maybe there is a compromise here, where the minimal kind of circumcision could be done. It can be difficult to find a practitioner who will do this, sometimes it even takes finding the Jewish (is it mohel?) who will do it that way.

Incidentally, I can't believe they were shocked about the not shaving the head thing, because that is NOT obligatory, although it is highly recommended. Maybe only half of the families in our local Islamic center even do it!

Just my .02

Umm Zaynab

[Stardust27]

Uhm, maybe I don't get this, but how can the removal of a "tiny portion from the bottom of the foreskin" help in keeping traces of urine from the body? As long as the foreskin's still there and covering the glans, urine can get "trapped" under there (unless, of course, the man retracts to urinate – hey, a simple trick to "keep clean" without cutting! And why not simply wash before prayer?). To achieve this effect, you'd have to remove at least so much of the foreskin that the glans is only partly covered, and that sounds much more extreme than what you described as a non-medicalized Islamic circumcision. And as far as I understand, if this kind of partial circumcision is done during childhood, chances are high that it'll look (and work) more or less like a radical circumcision once the boy's grown.

Anyway, to me, it doesn't make a difference how much is cut off. A violation of a child's right to bodily integrity is a violation of a child's right to bodily integrity is a violation... BTW, I suppose that where doctors haven't taken over circumcision, no one bothers with pain relief techniques, right? All in all, it doesn't sound one bit better to me.

The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).

Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!

Whatever the reasons, I think the decision should be left for the adult man to make.

Stardust

[mahdokht]

Originally posted by Stardust27


The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).

Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!

Stardust [/QUOTE]

If this is the case than you should continue with your intactivism because it matters not what Islamic law states about circumcision, it will have no effect on what you think. You say that "at least judaism the reason is clear cut and documented" and proceed to insult the beliefs of millions of people because of your lack of understanding of Islamic law. If you believe so wholeheartedly in circumcision being a violation, then why the comparison between judaism and islam? Does it matter whose law says what if you find it so repulsive? Or is your protest just a thinly veiled attempt to degrade Islam?

At any rate according to the rules of the board:

So I ask that discussion of a religious nature be discontinued on this board.

If you would like to understand and discuss the spiritual laws related to circumcision as they are presented and practiced in the faiths of the world you may take that discussion to the Spirituality board with respect, appreciation, and sincerity.

If you are sincerely interested in understanding Islamic laws as they relate to circimcision then I will gladly PM you or we can respectfully take it to the Spirituality forum. If you are only interested in insulting the religious beliefs of so many mamas here, then there is no reason to waste my time or yours.

[mattemma04]

The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).

Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!

Whatever the reasons, I think the decision should be left for the adult man to make.

Stardust [/B][/QUOTE] >>>>

Nowhere in the Koran does it state that circumcision is required.Circumcision is something that man commanded. I think I understand your comparision of judaism and islam regarding circumcision.Many articles mention circ in islam not being clear cut since the timing of and sex of those circed varies so much.

Man was mutilating the genitals of both sexes before either religion(islam/judaism) came along. Religion just gave some legitimacy/protection to the act. I agree,violation of personal rights.Whose to say a child won't grow up and want to be a part of another religion?

Hopefully in time both religions will abandom this practice for something far more peaceful and welcoming.We simply do not need to be cutting at our genitals for any reason.
Take care!
Sara

[Frankly Speaking]

I think i can address this issue without getting into a debate about religion . . . . . Just by sharing a little information.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the Old Testament of the Bible and it does in fact prescribe Abrahamic circumcision on the eighth day after the birth. Where Christians separate from Muslims and Jews is at the birth of Christ. Circumcision is a blood sacrifice and according to the New Testament, Christ was the (Sacrificial) "Lamb of God" and shed his blood for us that we do not have to ever shed our blood for the approval of God. Simply, Muslims and Jews do not believe that Christ was the son of God and therefore, they are commanded to continue to participate in the blood sacrifices.

Now, maybe someone can answer some questions for me. First, why do Muslims circumcise children instead of infants as prescribed in the Bible and second, why have Jews abandoned all blood sacrificial rituals for themselves but continue to force the one remaining blood sacrifice on their babes?






Frank

[merpk]

T as it concerns Frank's question about Jews ...

Frank far be it from me to go against the board rules and bring up religion, but since you asked, I'll answer.

First, the "blood sacrifice" thing is entirely *your* theology's descriptor, not mine.

Bris milah is entirely unrelated to concept of sacrifices. Nothing to do with it. Entirely unrelated. Completely separate. Different issue. No connection. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

We no longer perform the sacrifices because there is no longer a Temple in Jerusalem.

Bris milah has nothing to do with the Temple in Jerusalem. No connection. Entirely unrelated. Completely separate. Different issue. No connection. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

So what does the fact that there are no longer sacrifices in a Temple have to do with the fact that bris milah continues?

[Frankly Speaking]

Does the infant not sacrifice his foreskin? Is there any such thing as a bloodless circumcision? Some of the Jewish parents that reject circumcision still have the foreskin nicked to shed a little blood. If it's not a blood ritual, why the insistence on shedding blood? Sorry, it just doesn't add up.





Frank

[merpk]

Frank it doesn't add up because you're looking at it through your eyes, and you don't understand anything not in your own paradigm. Think outside of your own box, Frank.

Christians do the blood sacrifice stuff, Frank. Not Jews.

That is not the point of bris milah. If you'd like to think of it that way, fine, that's your choice, it's a free country, and comes totally from your imagination. But that's not what it is.

Get past it, Frank.



In re those Jewish parents who reject circumcision but insist on shedding blood ... I have no clue, Frank, because what they are doing is their own imagination and their own invented ritual that has nothing ... zero, zip, nada, zilch ... to do with bris milah. And if they choose to "shed blood" as their variant, then you'll have to ask them why, because they made it up out of whole cloth and because I have no clue. None at all.

[Frankly Speaking]

Oh, Amy! Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones!

No where in Christianity is there a command for blood sacrifice. Not the blood of humans, not the blood of our children and not the blood of animals in sacrifice. I don't know where you got that idea but you are totally off base there. Christians sacrifice our money in tithing, we sacrifice ourselves in love and forgiveness and we sacrifice our time in service. Blood is never sacrificed to our God. Never.

I am past it. I am past shedding the blood of innocent children for the possible future sins of having their full sexuality. I am not commanded by my God to harm children and I wouldn't do it even if I were. I would just have to find a more gentle and loving God. Thankfully, I don't have to go to that extreme.

A little introspection may be helpful.





Frank