Husband and Wife on different pages...hurting. - Page 2

[Lazy Gardens]

Originally Posted by sunshineafterrain

I think that looking at the goal is important, in this instance, dh wanted to spend quality time with dd, ... the important goal was father/daughter time before bed, reading a book is only one strategy to accomplish that

If she still acted up, maybe offering up a snack, to rule out a physical reason...if that did not work, then bed Period. “You must be soooo tired that you cannot remember how to behave (or you are cranky) sleep will help.. I love you. Goodnight”

“Tomorrow you can try again with Daddy, but tonight it is not working. He’ll come in to kiss you goodnight before you go to sleep”

Great strategies. I had a childless neighbor when I was a child whose only response to our misbehavior was to lead us to the gate and send us home. She'd always let us come back and try again the next day.

[ktmama]

Not a bad idea, except for the holding the door shut part. Placing a child in their room (not a coal cellar) and telling them to stay there until they feel they can talk in a civilized manner is not abuse. When they emerge, just ask, "Are you feeling civilized?" and give them a chance to prove it, and don't revisit why they went to their room.

To me her dd's expression of her emotion seems developmentally appropriate. Whether it was "civilized" or not is not really the point. I'd much rather have an "uncivilized" child that one who's emotions are stifled. Now, that's not to say that kids shouldn't learn to express their feelings appropriately/verbally depending on their age, but just stuffing them is not a healthy or positive message.

[Lazy Gardens]

Originally Posted by ktmama

Not a bad idea, except for the holding the door shut part. Placing a child in their room (not a coal cellar) and telling them to stay there until they feel they can talk in a civilized manner is not abuse. When they emerge, just ask, "Are you feeling civilized?" and give them a chance to prove it, and don't revisit why they went to their room.

To me her dd's expression of her emotion seems developmentally appropriate. Whether it was "civilized" or not is not really the point. I'd much rather have an "uncivilized" child that one who's emotions are stifled. Now, that's not to say that kids shouldn't learn to express their feelings appropriately/verbally depending on their age, but just stuffing them is not a healthy or positive message.

My niece was free to express her emotions in a developmentally appropriate manner for as long as she wanted - but expressing them by screaming and raging was limited to her room. Most of the tantrums were her raging in frustration about having smacked head-on into a developmentally appropriate restriction on her activities and being unwilling to accept that a parent's "no" meant "no". It's not that my brother set a whole lot of limits or expected her to do things a 3-year old can't do; he rarely said "no" and his kids did all kinds of kid things. But when he said "no" he meant it.

For a while when she was just over 3, watching her test boundaries was like watching a superball ricochet in a shower stall. Whizzz .... thud ... tantrum ... bounce ... thud ... whizzz... zooom ... tantrum ... exhausting.

[paquerette]

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

Look what she got rewarded by. Lots of mommy time, a snack AND a story. And having acquired what she wanted, she went to bed.

Or perhaps that's what she needed, and having satisfied her need she was then able to sleep. Why assume such a negative intent?

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

Toddlers are "pre-verbal". They don't have the vocabulary yet, or the mental capacity, to be self-analytic, analyze emotions, plan much or "discuss" consequences ... that shows up later. Physical discipline works: moving them into an acceptable area, walking away from them, using your body language and actions to convey what they don't have the capacity to verbally understand.

I don't think a three year old is a toddler, and if mine is typical, they're anything but pre-verbal. Mine does have those capabilities. She knows when she's feeling a certain way and when she needs certain things due to that, be it cuddles or alone time or healthy food to make her brain feel good. She has limited ability to plan things and discuss consequences. Waiting for things is rough.

How can it be simultaneously true that the OP's child had the mental capacity to orchestrate this whole scene so that she'd get mommy time snack etc. but she doesn't have the mental capacity to discuss consequences or plan things?

[WhaleinGaloshes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

Look what she got rewarded by. Lots of mommy time, a snack AND a story. And having acquired what she wanted, she went to bed.

That, to me, is a desirable outcome. It's not something to be avoided.

I'm completely in agreement about letting Dad parent, until we get to holding my daughter in her room screaming with the door shut. I would not stand by while anyone did that to my daughter. It's tricky and incredibly painful when parents come up against a non-negotiable like that and I feel for you OP.

So I'm all for letting go and letting Dad, but in your place I would have done exactly what you did, festivefeet. I may not be much help but I can offer support.

I would start by articulating to your husband why you won't negotiate on that particular strategy, but it sounds like you already have. I see DD's father, me and DD as a team. I'd keep looking for a solution for these conflicts until you find one that's acceptable to everyone. Tag-teaming on the bedtime routine so no one gets burned out, maybe? The goal is grace for everyone, including you.

[Lazy Gardens]

Originally Posted by paquerette

How can it be simultaneously true that the OP's child had the mental capacity to orchestrate this whole scene so that she'd get mommy time snack etc. but she doesn't have the mental capacity to discuss consequences or plan things?

She's not deliberately orchestrating - in the sense that "I'll fidget, and then I'll whine, then he'll say no and then I'll do this and then I'll get mommy time and a snack". What they do is reactive not proactive, and if they do something that gets results they like, they'll do more of it without being consciously aware of it.

Adults will do this too ... there's a famous experiment where one professor had another prof's class manipulate him just by increasing their attention-paying whenever the prof moved to the left. By the end of the lecture, the guy was leaning on the left wall of the classroom, and had no clue why he was there.

Three year olds are developing empathy and knowledge about feelings, learning cause and effect, but they don't have the vocabulary to get into any in depth discussions about planning and consequences.

[shanniesue2]

I have several thoughts:

1)story time doesn't have to be "sit and listen quietly time." Maybe instead of having to listen quietly, it could be a time to look at and talk about the pictures in the book... reading can be very interactive.

2)Daddy didn't follow through the first time when he told her that she would have to sit quietly or he would put the book away. I think that it's important to do what you say you're going to do. However, if you change your mind, you need to explain why you've changed... not just give in to pleading.

3)I don't particularly see anything wrong with alone time when a person (no matter how big or small) gets out of control. I don't like the idea of locking a child in their room, but maybe you and your DH could compromise and create a space in your home (a safe space) and that's where people go when they feel out of control. Not necessarily a time out, but a place where it's safe and okay to be angry or sad or whatever until you feel ready to rejoin other people. And everyone in the house can use it... not just your DD

4)While I do think it was okay to step in when your DH was holding the door shut, I don't necessarily think it was okay to read more stories and give snacks and such. I think that it's important to back up what your partner says unless it's abusive... putting the book away and saying time for bed isn't abusive. So I can see why your dh was upset about that. However, all that said, if you see something that he's doing that you have serious problems with... well that shouldn't be ignored either. Maybe you guys could come up with a code word that if one of you sees some parenting going on that is potentially harmful... use the code word so that the other parent can take a moment to look at what they're doing and either change tactics or tell your DD something along the lines of, "I'm feeling very angry right now and need to take a break, your mom/dad is going to come help you while I cool off." That way, you're modeling how to handle anger AND you're not making it look like one parent is going against the other. Then after all is said and done, you and DH come back together and talk about what happened and develop some strategies for how to handle things in the future.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by shanniesue2

2)Daddy didn't follow through the first time when he told her that she would have to sit quietly or he would put the book away. I think that it's important to do what you say you're going to do. However, if you change your mind, you need to explain why you've changed... not just give in to pleading.

3)I don't particularly see anything wrong with alone time when a person (no matter how big or small) gets out of control. I don't like the idea of locking a child in their room, but maybe you and your DH could compromise and create a space in your home (a safe space) and that's where people go when they feel out of control. Not necessarily a time out, but a place where it's safe and okay to be angry or sad or whatever until you feel ready to rejoin other people. And everyone in the house can use it... not just your DD

4)While I do think it was okay to step in when your DH was holding the door shut, I don't necessarily think it was okay to read more stories and give snacks and such. I think that it's important to back up what your partner says unless it's abusive... putting the book away and saying time for bed isn't abusive. So I can see why your dh was upset about that. However, all that said, if you see something that he's doing that you have serious problems with... well that shouldn't be ignored either. Maybe you guys could come up with a code word that if one of you sees some parenting going on that is potentially harmful... use the code word so that the other parent can take a moment to look at what they're doing and either change tactics or tell your DD something along the lines of, "I'm feeling very angry right now and need to take a break, your mom/dad is going to come help you while I cool off." That way, you're modeling how to handle anger AND you're not making it look like one parent is going against the other. Then after all is said and done, you and DH come back together and talk about what happened and develop some strategies for how to handle things in the future.

ITA with this entire post.

[PluggingAway]

Ok. I'm sitting here trying not to be nervous and trying to fight off a headache. Dh took 30 month-old ds to breakfast/store this morning. I got call from Dh about 30 minutes ago. Ds was screaming in his car seat. Apparently they "butted heads" over a newspaper. There was a newspaper box outside of the restaurant. After their meal, as they often do, they put money in the newspaper box. Dh said to ds "do you want me to open the box?" Ds said "yeah". Dh opened the box to retrieve the paper. Ds flipped out and decided that he wanted to open the box, but that would require another $1.50 that dh wasn't willing to spend. Sooo, tantrum ensued. And now they are headed to the store (oh my). So, while I'm awaiting their return home, I thought I would re-read my previous post. I guess it helped. It is rather idealistic, isn't it? But true nonetheless. The thing is, that a month ago, dh would have "worked" with ds. He would have spent another $1.50 or maybe found a cheaper paper in a neighboring box. Or he would have "closed" the door, without really closing the door, so ds could "reopen" it. Ever since ds2 was born 3 weeks ago, dh has lost some of his patience and age-appropriate expectations. He's becoming a little less respectful of my son, and a bit more authoratative in his tone. Needless to say, ds's behavior is reflecting the change. What bothers me also, is that I feel less "attracted" to dh when he's less than perfect with ds. Know what I mean? Well, I'm trying to follow my own advice. Sorry to highjack the thread. I'm just sitting here wondering what their arrival home will bring. I'll let you know. I welcome any insight.

[BellaClaudia]

you got so many great responses on many details so I just wanted to add
my view on "equiparenting"..

Although I think it is beautiful idea to let the husband be on his 50% parent rights
then I think that it does not work well in reality because of lack of information and willingness they have in researching best options and consequences so it simply make them in most cases unqualified. If it was not about child I would give the right of equality to anything but we all know how easily is to make hurting and long lasting experience on a child that is so difficult to undo.

I know that if we had a Porshe that I would be a 50% co owner of it my husband would never let me to take it to drive anyway I wished just because I co owned it.. I am sure he would not like me to drive off road.. pot holes.. mudd puddless.. wash it with rocks or use unknown cleaning products on it..

having said that.. the men are like that with the cars and their possession.. they do not share eqal rights with us because they know better and they are experts..
so ..

I really believe that in very old fashion way we should have more driving rights when it comes to raising child and more to say because we: know, we reasearch, we dig, we go lenghts to forseen consequences and we try to do best.

men for most part - with few exception and you know who they are..
do attempt parenting without required and needed respect for information.

a child is not guinny pig so it is nice idea to let daddy to find his way but this is at kiddo cost so I would defenetly put my foot down and protect not my way but the right way.

There is tons of information on where closing door on tantrumic child leads..
so I would ask my husband if he really knows what he is doing.

there is tons of people out there and each has opinion on what is right. does the husband checks credentials of them and knows where this specific technique leads before adopting it?

I would encourage more reading on your husband side. I would prepare materials that clearly and scientifically compare parenting methods - the ones that he preffers to the one you preffer and show where it leads and find common ground.

then dig specifics.

I think out husbands are very cute and lovable cratures but sometime they just
are bit confused and need bit help :-)

hugs.

BC

[elizawill]

honestly, i disagree with so much of this. i know we are all shaped by our own experiences of course, but this is so far fetched from who my husband and i are. it's difficult to relate to it. i don't consider the analogy between a porsche and a child even reasonable. children certainly are not possessions like vehicles are. fathers do have every right to have input and partake in decision-making and the discipline of their children. my husband is very hands-on, but because he works and i stay home, it's by default that i spend more time with our kids and make most of the decisions. however, my husband is an amazing father. he does not need me to micro manage his parenting. although my dh is gd, he does discipline differently from me. and although i don't always agree, i know he is doing what is in the best interest of our children from his point of view. unless i felt my dh was shaming our kids, hurting them, emotionally hurting them, etc, i do not step in. i owe it to him and my children to allow him to parent.

i do agree, however, that something like holding a child behind closed doors against their will is not okay. at that point, i would know my husband was unable to keep his cool & i would step in and take over. and likewise, my dh would do the same for me. we are a team. we support one another, yk? but my husband would not do that to our children anyway. therefore, i don't intervene and step all over over him when he is parenting. anyway, just wanted to say that.

Originally Posted by BellaClaudia

you got so many great responses on many details so I just wanted to add
my view on "equiparenting"..

Although I think it is beautiful idea to let the husband be on his 50% parent rights
then I think that it does not work well in reality because of lack of information and willingness they have in researching best options and consequences so it simply make them in most cases unqualified. If it was not about child I would give the right of equality to anything but we all know how easily is to make hurting and long lasting experience on a child that is so difficult to undo.

I know that if we had a Porshe that I would be a 50% co owner of it my husband would never let me to take it to drive anyway I wished just because I co owned it.. I am sure he would not like me to drive off road.. pot holes.. mudd puddless.. wash it with rocks or use unknown cleaning products on it..

having said that.. the men are like that with the cars and their possession.. they do not share eqal rights with us because they know better and they are experts..
so ..

I really believe that in very old fashion way we should have more driving rights when it comes to raising child and more to say because we: know, we reasearch, we dig, we go lenghts to forseen consequences and we try to do best.

men for most part - with few exception and you know who they are..
do attempt parenting without required and needed respect for information.

a child is not guinny pig so it is nice idea to let daddy to find his way but this is at kiddo cost so I would defenetly put my foot down and protect not my way but the right way.

There is tons of information on where closing door on tantrumic child leads..
so I would ask my husband if he really knows what he is doing.

there is tons of people out there and each has opinion on what is right. does the husband checks credentials of them and knows where this specific technique leads before adopting it?

I would encourage more reading on your husband side. I would prepare materials that clearly and scientifically compare parenting methods - the ones that he preffers to the one you preffer and show where it leads and find common ground.

then dig specifics.

I think out husbands are very cute and lovable cratures but sometime they just
are bit confused and need bit help :-)

hugs.

BC

[PluggingAway]

I agree with elizawill's post. I just find it so difficult sometimes to step back and let dh parent. He is a wonderful husband and father, but I still find it incredibly difficult not to be a control freak.

Anyways, great news. Dh and ds had a great time at the store. Ds got over his tantrum by the time they were in the store parking lot. All is well. Dh has been very patient with ds over the past couple of days. I feel like things have returned to "normal". I truly believe that biting my tongue was the best thing for the family. It's just so hard sometimes.

I hope that the op is doing well.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by PluggingAway

I just one-handedly typed a long response and somehow lost it. Ugh.

Hugs to you. You are not alone. I came out of "lurkdom" because I couldn't read your struggle and not repond.

A couple of thoughts:
1.) Lead by example. As much as you want to protest to dh and call him a jerk, just keep calm, gentle and consistent with dh and dd.
2.) Be sympathetic. It sounds like your dh is trying to do right by his family. Assume positive intent. Quite honestly, in my opinion, you were disrespectful to dh by not supporting him.
3.) Step Away from the the Father-Child relationship. This one is so very difficult for me. Your dh is 50% of the parenting team. Let him figure out his parenting journey. Respect your dh and daughter enough not to save her from her father. Don't micromanage.
4.) Pray

Ok. That's my 2 cents. I had a lot to say on this subject, but lost the post.
I really, really feel for you. You will get through this. It will get better.

I agree with this.

Please do not take this wrong, but I think that you undermined your dh.

I know it is hard.

[Arduinna]

It's hard when you don't agree. Your dd is acting in an age appropriate way even though it isn't enjoyable. Personally there is no way I'm allowing anyone to lock my kid in their room to scream and hold the door closed on them. That is not GD. period. Don't care if it's the father doing it. I don't agree with he has to find his own way. As a parent it's my job to protect my child, even if that means from the actions of the other parent when their actions are inappropiate. The biggest problem that people have sticking to GD when their kids act out. It's easy when they do everything you like and want.

What happened was a couple of things. The expectation that it's disrespectful to talk when someone was reading, that assumption that because she was distracted and talking while he was reading that meant she didn't want him to continue, even though she said she did want to hear it. I think there is also the added problem that when the reading was over it meant bedtime. And from her being distracted and talking sounds like she wasn't mentally ready for bed. She wanted to stay up, which is what the reading allowed her to do but she also was distracted. Hey it happens. This is basically about power struggle and frustration over obedience, which where most issues come up. Along with unrealistic expectations.

One choice is to brainstorm some other options. He could have kept reading even while she was distracted. Isn't part of the reading before bed an opportunity to wind down and mentally prepare? Maybe having the repetition of him reading is helpful to her even if she isn't paying attention. I know my dh to this day gets tired when people read to him . But we all have times we need to process out or day mentally before we can rest.

Or maybe she just wasn't ready for her day end just yet?

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

While I think that "whoever starts handling a discipline situation should be able to do it on their own and not have the other partner take over" is a good general principle, there are times when both child and parent have completely lost control and the best thing is for the other parent to step in and GENTLY, NON-JUDGMENTALLY make a fresh start with the child. Say something like, "Whoa, it sounds like Daddy has had enough of this! Darling, would you like to go sit down with a cold drink?" Think of it as being kind to him, not rescuing your child from his temper. Don't do it too often. Talk with your husband about the types of situations in which this would be a welcome response.

awesome advice!! it is so much easier to realize after the fact that i was out of control and needed help.

Originally Posted by Lazy Gardens

He's not following through with his consequences, and he's rewarding her for not listening.
---------------------
Not a bad idea, except for the holding the door shut part. Placing a child in their room (not a coal cellar) and telling them to stay there until they feel they can talk in a civilized manner is not abuse. When they emerge, just ask, "Are you feeling civilized?" and give them a chance to prove it, and don't revisit why they went to their room.
------------
Look what she got rewarded by. Lots of mommy time, a snack AND a story. And having acquired what she wanted, she went to bed.

you're not from around here are you she's a kid not a dog. she has emotional needs that are being met not a "reward" she's seeking.

and placing a child in their room by themselves until they act "civilized" ie not showing any "unacceptable" emotions is mental cruelty in my book.

imagine if someone told you, "you're angry? well, go away from me until you can shut up about it." "you're frustrated? i don't care. go sit by yourself until you can act like i want you to." and you're talking about a 3yo?

to the OP: when this happens with ds i will just hold his hand while he freaks out or sit quietly with him. i've learned to NOT try and talk about until the next day because it's too much for him to process and just makes it worse. it does get better!