Could I be legally charged...UPDATE! on page 3 - Page 2

[DahliaRW]

If she remains in this position, I wouldn't consent to a c/s until you were in labor. Some babies turn at that point. And you can go in when you are in labor, get an u/s, and see the position to see if she turned. If not, you can go for the section.

Are you a candidate for an external version?

[pantufla]

Both DS#2 and current unborn babe were head up at 36 weeks. And head down at 38. There's still time for your babe to turn.

My niece was told at 38 weeks that her babe was head up and she needed a c-section. They did the surgery, and hey guess what? baby was head down.

[dayiscoming2006]

It is probably a good idea to keep your plans between you and your partner now. I don't know much about the legalities. I personally would deliver a frank breech by UC. In that splits position you described I would probably go for the section. But, like others said, your baby still has quite a bit of time to turn. I think it is possibly a good idea to say that you want to wait until you are in labor to make the decision of what to do based on the baby's position. Go with what you feel. Best wishes.

[dayiscoming2006]

Originally Posted by pantufla

My niece was told at 38 weeks that her babe was head up and she needed a c-section. They did the surgery, and hey guess what? baby was head down.

How horrible! I would be so upset if I had been her. To OP I would definitely recommend double checking positioning before making a decision.

[MsBlack]

LorenaAZ--

big hugs and huge kudos to you, for doing all you can to manage your pregnancy and birth in the most sane, informed and humane of ways possible. This must be so hard to deal with! Keep your courage, and your calm--trust yourself to make the best possible decision given the facts when labor time comes. Feed yourself well, get plenty of rest, go for walks and whatever else helps you feel at ease and nurtured--this kind of stress can really burn the calories and eat up emotional reserves, so be very kind and gentle with yourself, restore yourself at every possible turn. And know that you are doing 2 of the hardest kinds of work at the same time: growing a baby and dealing with a huge stressor. (But hey, you're a woman! You can multitask AND you have other superpowers, right )

I think that it's very possible that either your baby will turn to vertex, OR will put herself into a better position for vag breech delivery. Some babies dont' do this until mom is actually in labor--so, if your final decision is to go to the hospital on birthing day, INSIST that an u/s be done BEFORE you go to OR.

I also just remembered a story a friend told me about her sister's breech csec: they also could not find a vag-breech provider, and agreed to surgery. It turned out that their baby had a congenital defect of the bones of his face/nose; vag birth was very likely to cause damage while csec prevented damage and allowed medical assistance over time to help correct this unusual condition (he was otherwise just fine). It is not the only such story I've heard about a breech. It is true that for some women (and this can run in families), breech is just normal for them. For some, babies get into breech because of underlying maternal/familial stressors/fears; and some go breech due to uterine issues (such as big fibroids or a bicornate uterus) or baby-issues such as my story illustrates.

I wanted to say all this because at this point, you don't know why your baby is breech. Maybe you never will. I just want to encourage you again to keep your courage and intelligence and instinct and calm--you can make the right decision for yourself and baby, even if you don't know 'why' until later. From what you say, I believe you are now doing all the right things. Keep your center, breathe deep and breathe again--if your own or family fears are impacting this baby's position, then acknowlege that and keep seeking peace. I don't even think we have to entirely "cure" our fears prior to birth--we just have to acknowledge it, and continue to move forward in spite of it--which is the definition of courage and trust.

We can also talk to our babies about fear and stress: 'Yes, baby, there is some fear here, some stress...but you let me manage that, I'm your mom and that's my job. I'm going to do all I can to keep you safe. You are safe in my love, it's ok to come out and be here with us, we are taking care of you now and we are going to keep on taking care of you.'

sending you prayers for calm, trust, strength.

[MsBlack]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Going to a place where they are skilled in it? I'm guessing you mean the hospital where skilled in breach means skilled in surgery. Yea clearly we don't share the same definition of logic. Because many of us here ( this is the UC forum after all) don't buy into the breach automatically means surgery.

Thanks very much for saying this! Yes, this IS the UC forum after all--which some people seem to forget in 'unusual', 'challenging' threads like this one. Some seem to forget that women post here for UC support, from UC supportive people....some seem to think that UCers need saving from themselves (and that it is their duty to do that saving). But as paphia and a few others have demonstrated, expressing concern can be done in a non-fear-mongering, highly respectful, supportive and intelligent/informed way.

Thanks to all those here who can and do support UC and are able to respect the courage, trust and intelligence of UCers. To the rest of you, hey--nobody here needs saving. And as for the fear mongering challenges tossed in: if we were interested in that we'd go to mainstream forums....thanks anyway, but there is actually a deeply considered reason we are here and not in those places!

Please pardon this interruption of our regularly scheduled discussion, mini-rant done now

[Isarma]

Originally Posted by MsBlack

Yes, this IS the UC forum after all--which some people seem to forget in 'unusual', 'challenging' threads like this one.

I was beginning to wonder! For what it's worth, I'd UC a breech. Obviously I'd try everything I could to turn the baby, but I'm not sure if I'd have a version. Here's an inspiring birth story for you:
http://seasonchanging.blogspot.com/2...have-been.html

[augustacherri]

FWIW, too, Laura Shanley had a footling breech. Obviously the splits position sounds different than this and offers different challenges, but I thought it might encourage you to read her story. It's on her website.

[mwherbs]

Originally Posted by LorenaAZ

for knowingly delivering a breech baby unassisted at home??

Baby's still breech at 36 weeks and after talking to a midwife (I was asking her if she knew any Dr who would deliver a breech in AZ) she mentioned to me that "a concerned citizen" may try to put me in jail if I tried to deliver my baby at home knowing that she's breech, especially if something happened to the baby (injury or death). I've been talking to quite a few midwives and doulas in town trying to find a Dr who would deliver a breech, so quite a few people know that I want to deliver at home unassisted if circumstances were better (if baby was head down). I am so discouraged...
Can I really go to jail if something were to happen to the baby during an unassisted delivery?

could you be charged, maybe. Is it LIKELY you will be charged, NO. you may be investigated, but for the most part this state still has some degree of stance on personal choice. There are some religious sects/communities that have maternal as well as baby deaths and I haven't heard of any of them going to jail yet. as far as in hospital skilled providers- I have a friend who had a hospital breech birth in Phoenix- don't know who the doc was though- down here in Tucson there is one Perinatologist at the U who is skilled in breech and mulitiples there use to be a few but several retired-- I have read several stories of breech birth UCs on this list - I would say look through the MC birth stories
take care

[laoxinat]

If Dr. Leavitt in Mesa is still practicing, I'd trust his judgment. IDK, though, he caught my DS and that was 21 years ago! IMO, breech births can be HB'd but it is a risk, at best. The thing is, without a timely US, it can be very difficult to determine a baby's position, and especially where her feet/legs are. It sounds, from your last post, that you have a good handle on things. I think your OP made some people say "Wha?" cuz it was only about liability, which, of course is not your primary concern. Good luck! I am in Prescott, BTW. Hope all goes well, and your babe is safe and sound, mama!

[hippymomma69]

I haven't read all the replies but have you tried accupuncture to turn the baby? I used accupunture for my last baby and although he wasn't breech he did "turn" to be in a perfect position for birth (I could feel it!). And I read online that there are almost no breech babies in China because of the use of accupuncture - it's worth a shot, right? Just go to someone who is knowledgable about turning breech babies....

good luck
peace,
robyn

[mama in the forest]

I'm finding it interesting that we have some posters here (in the UC forum of all places) who are worried about this when this mama has likely a Full Month if not more left of her pregnancy. Come on!

OP - please try not to worry. Whatever we do in this world, there will always be people who do not understand...and yes, sometimes they will try to hurt us by pursuing a legal route, but we cannot live our lives out of this fear. We absolutely must do what is best for our babies with courage, and if that means UC or not, let it be! Stop discussing this with birth professionals. They are ALL going to support the knife. Use them to get the information you want (or preferably don't) and then do what your heart tells you.

My big 13 pound babe was breech up until labor and then she turned at the last minute. Even if she had not, I would have birthed her UC without a shadow of a doubt!

Go inside and make peace with yourself if you can, mama.

[vesper0]

Lazy Garden, where did you get the 30-60 seconds between the delivery of the butt and the head? I have had two breech UC and this was not the case. I have my most recent one on video. I would have to check the actual time lapse, but it was within reasonable limits, such as the ones laid out in Emergency Childbirth. But, not 30-60 seconds. That sounds more like the delivery of the body after a vertes birth. Rixa Freeze I believe had information on her page about not delivering a breech baby's head too fast, because the pressure applied the baby's head is different than a vertex birth and could result in injury to the baby.
To the OP, yes you could be charged or investigated, but it isn't likely to go anywhere unless there where other serious issues involved in the birth process outside of the knowningly giving birth to a breech baby. Ms. Black, as usual, has given you reasonable perspectives on the issue. She already conveyed my thinking eloquently enough.

[AmeliasMum]

Just to add some hope. DD was breech at 38wks. Our Midwife was more than willing to be at our home for delivery, even though DH and I were wanting an Unassisted Birth. HOWEVER.....DD flipped at 39wks4d and was born, head down at 42w3d, with no Midwife. They can flip, even at a later stage.

[sophiekat]

Originally Posted by sophiekat

so your reaction to not having a skilled enough attendant for a homebirth is to have no attendant instead of going to a place where there are skilled enough attendants? where, exactly, is the logic there?

OP, from a legal perspective there are a number of ways a prosecutor with an agenda or CPS (if you have other children) could find some sort of fault with you. Honestly, I would not feel comfortable from a legal standpoint (much less a moral or even just a practical standpoint, speaking as a mum who had one transverse baby and a preemie) attempting a UC with your circumstances.
There are certain situations where intervention in birth is not only desirable,
but necessary -- as a PP pointed out, the studies showing that vaginal birth is better than or equivalent to a caesarean one pointed out that the key to safety was the presence of a trained attendant.

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Going to a place where they are skilled in it? I'm guessing you mean the hospital where skilled in breach means skilled in surgery. Yea clearly we don't share the same definition of logic. Because many of us here ( this is the UC forum after all) don't buy into the breach automatically means surgery.

please tell me where I said she should have a caesarean?
and I realise this is the UC forum -- I usually don't post here because I am not a UCer (as I said before, my first was transverse and wouldn't have been born vaginally no matter what), but I am a lawyer and thought I might be able to weigh in on the possibility of the OP being legally charged. After all, that is the title of her thread.

Originally Posted by nighten

I understand not wanting to put yourself into the hands of someone who would try to push surgery on you (because I too, believe breech babies can be delivered vaginally, safely, in most cases). However, going into it knowing that my baby was already at potential risk would be a deciding factor for me too. I wouldn't call CPS on someone who made a different choice, but I would wonder which is more important: Having a healthy baby or having an ideal birth.

That sounds very harsh, I know. I'm sorry. And it sounds like you're aware of the seriousness of the situation too. But because you posted the question originally, I'm glad to know that you're open to others being upfront with you about the concerns with the situation.

And it sounds like your midwife was trying to not just make you aware of the legalities of the situation, but perhaps also give you a wakeup call to the seriousness of it, because it sounds like your baby's current position isn't something that could be delivered safely, at least not unattended.

I hope that you're able to get baby to turn, or find someone who can help deliver a breech baby, and this all becomes moot.

Good luck, mama! We all deserve a healthy baby and an ideal birth. I hope you're able to have both too.

bolding mine. I think nighten has some very wise words.

Originally Posted by MsBlack

Thanks very much for saying this! Yes, this IS the UC forum after all--which some people seem to forget in 'unusual', 'challenging' threads like this one. Some seem to forget that women post here for UC support, from UC supportive people....some seem to think that UCers need saving from themselves (and that it is their duty to do that saving). But as paphia and a few others have demonstrated, expressing concern can be done in a non-fear-mongering, highly respectful, supportive and intelligent/informed way.

Thanks to all those here who can and do support UC and are able to respect the courage, trust and intelligence of UCers. To the rest of you, hey--nobody here needs saving. And as for the fear mongering challenges tossed in: if we were interested in that we'd go to mainstream forums....thanks anyway, but there is actually a deeply considered reason we are here and not in those places!

Please pardon this interruption of our regularly scheduled discussion, mini-rant done now

I hope this wasn't directed at me. And frankly, I haven't seen anything I would call "fear-mongering", disrespectful, unsupportive, unintelligent or uninformed.
We can support UC without supporting it in every circumstance. And from the OP's description of her circumstance, she does not have a "typical" breech. So while it's all well and good that some might attempt an UC with a frank breech or a footling breech, the OP has neither.
She may, of course -- there is still time for her baby to turn, and for her sake I hope she does. But just because some posters are not saying "UC at all cost" does not mean we are unsupportive of UC in general or even the OP UCing should her baby's position change.
And frankly, I resent the implication that those of us who are questioning the wisdom of UCing a baby currently doing the splits (and as others have pointed out, at increased risk of prolapsed cord, getting stuck, or doing major damage to mum on her way out) should be relegated to "mainstream" boards. Intelligent people can have differences of opinion and just because you don't like what we're saying doesn't make it invalid, unsupportive, or uneducated.

OP, I hope you don't take my posts as thinking you need to be "saved." I think you are a thoughtful, intelligent mum who wants only the best for your babe, and I posted because I thought I might have knowledge to answer the question you originally posted. I hope your baby turns and you can have your ideal birth and a healthy babe.

[Abismommy]

To the OP, have you tried spinning babies? A chiropractor? Or even accupuncture? My MW swears by all these things It is worth a try, there was a woman in my Myspace crunchy mom's group. After doing these things she had a successful flip of the baby! I have only heard a few success stories on a version I'd personally try the first 3 things along with the version maybe? GL to you. I cannot personally comment on the breech vaginal delivery though. Are there any websites that state the outcome of a breech vaginal deliver VS a CS delivery? It has never ever made sense to me to slice someone open because the babes butt is down instead of a a head Maybe I am just dumb, or just hate the thought of any unneeded medical intervention, unless really needed. I do believe here in FL it is illegal for a MW to deliver a breech baby. LAME! Oh and I am not a UC mama, we had our first in a BC and now we are planning a HB! Although the special on DHC on UC mama's made DH slightly more comfy with the idea Kudos to all you mamas

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by sophiekat

please tell me where I said she should have a caesarean?

You were implying in your PP that OP should go to hospital, it is rare these days for a mother to be allowed to vaginally birth a breech baby in hospital, so that results in supporting CS.

[Arwyn]

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[soxthecatrules]

To the OP....from watching events unfold after a UC went horribly wrong for one of my friends (after 2 MW told her to go back and see her OB)...if your UC did not turn out well I would expect at least a visit from CPS. To my knowledge my friend has not had any other interactions with authorities other than CPS. Of course, the event only happened a couple of months ago and I don't know what the statutes of limitations are on something like this. I suspect the issue was dropped because the last I heard there was really no concrete proof that the outcome would have been different had the baby been born in the hospital.


I will pray that your baby will turn and that you can have the birth of your dreams. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this during a time that should be filled with much excitement and joy.

[LionTigerBear]

This isn't really what the OP was asking about-- the legalities-- but just to chime in-- I wouldn't consider a breech baby to be inherently any riskier than a vertex birth. Just different. I think that babies often wind up in less than optimal birhting positions due to stress-- emotional stress, environmental stress, stressful energy, whatever. So if my intuition is picking up on that stress and that it might be a problem in giving birth, I suppose I would probably go a different route than UC. But if I felt that all I needed to do was relax and tune in with baby more, and do some stretching and meditating to make everything harmonious and optimal again, then I would do that. And if baby was still breech, personally I might find that a safer birth situation meant being in a place where I feel relaxed and comfortable! The bottom line is, when YOU feel relaxed and totally comfortable and at peace during labor, you will birth quickly and easily no matter what position the baby was in at 36 weeks.