Is this really normal in the US? No circ-ing in Europe... - Page 4

[perspective]

Originally Posted by NaturalMindedMomma

I understand the psychological reasons why a circed man would balk at the idea of leaving his son intact. Honestly, it means admitting his anatomy is flawed.

I dont think you do understand the psychological reasons for why many circ men would prefer to circ their sons. Its not because they all secretly believe their anatomy is "flawed". Quite the opposite. Most men generally dont have a lot of health problems with their penis. These same men have also had the most sexually pleasurable feelings from their penis. They also have been taught that the intact penis is dirty and the foreskin blocks the penis head fro getting its sensation (obviously not true). So cut guys are afraid to make the non-decision.

The point is, I will not spend my relationship with someone who thinks it's ok. CERTAINLY, we can understand from the get-go that "it's not your penis to cut" argument. It's as simple as violating someone elses right to a whole body.

You think that would be obvious, even I as a circed guy have understood the idea of "its not your penis to cut" for about as long as I have thought about my body. Yet even some of the mothers on this forum (strong intactivists) did not fully understand this idea when they circumcised their first son.

When you are presented with facts and still will not admit it's wrong, to me, you are being childish. Not my idea of a fulfilling relationship.

I completely agree, but that has a lot more to do with personality and far less to do with how much skin you have on your penis. Date whoever you want, I am just saying if your going to reject any person who has been victimized, you could be rejecting some amazing relationships.

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

The functionality of the circumcised penis is not impeded to the extend that it makes intimacy either difficult or undesirable.

That is, unfortunately, not always true.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by 3pink1blue

Comparing being circumcised to having small breasts is so anti-intactivist... I can't even believe I read that here. What a way to trivialize the entire issue.

Small breasts are still FUNCTIONAL, NORMAL breasts.

A circumcised penis has lost much of its normal function- function that is VITAL for many women to even have sex. (lubrication is my thought at the moment.)

I am happily married but if I ever was dating again, being intact would be an extremely important quality in a potential partner.

Thank you!

The comparison to small breasts is ridiculous.

I see nothing wrong with the PP having a preference for intact men, if she's had BAD experiences in the past with circ'd men. Of course, not all circ'd men's penises are the same and there might be circ'd men who she could have sex with without pain, but the lack of mobile skin FUNCTIONALLY alters the way the penis interacts with the vagina during sex. No doubting that.

[Britishmum]

It was a huge shock to me when I was pg with my first, to be asked by the OB if we would circumcise, if it was a boy. I was stunned, and just gaped at her. I had no idea that this was a routine thing for so many Americans.

It still stuns and saddens me greatly.

[Quindin]

Originally Posted by l_olive

That is, unfortunately, not always true.

Seriously!

I have only been with my husband, who is intact, but have read A LOT and spoken to people about the effects of circumcision in one's sex life. Some of the things I heard are so sad! Almost every American couple I have talked to in a marriage forum I am in, says how vital artificial lubrication is for sex, and I find that prett scary. Yes, lube is fun to have for several things even when one's hubby is intact, but thanks to the foreskin, it is not essential. To think about the vital functions the foreskin has for something as simple as masturbation, makes me wonder whether the US is the place where lube is sold more than anywhere else

Small breasts are perfect, just like God (or nature) intended.
A circumcised penis is the result of a brutal act done for vanity or some other nonsensical reason. Poor babies
NOT the same thing!!

[NaturalMindedMomma]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

I am not discounting it. My point is that in the greater scope of things, other factors are much more relevant when picking a mate. Yes, dealing with intimacy may be frustrating, but dating and relationships in general are frustrating as well. If there is a problem, you address it and not ignore it by shunning people who did not have control over surgical procedures done to their bodies.

I would rather have sex with a man with a fully functional penis. IT HURTS OTHERWISE. When was the last time you had a penis in your vagina?

[NaturalMindedMomma]

Originally Posted by perspective

I dont think you do understand the psychological reasons for why many circ men would prefer to circ their sons. Its not because they all secretly believe their anatomy is "flawed". Quite the opposite. Most men generally dont have a lot of health problems with their penis. These same men have also had the most sexually pleasurable feelings from their penis. They also have been taught that the intact penis is dirty and the foreskin blocks the penis head fro getting its sensation (obviously not true). So cut guys are afraid to make the non-decision.



You think that would be obvious, even I as a circed guy have understood the idea of "its not your penis to cut" for about as long as I have thought about my body. Yet even some of the mothers on this forum (strong intactivists) did not fully understand this idea when they circumcised their first son.



I completely agree, but that has a lot more to do with personality and far less to do with how much skin you have on your penis. Date whoever you want, I am just saying if your going to reject any person who has been victimized, you could be rejecting some amazing relationships.

What I meant with the flawed comment was, that if they admitted circing was wrong, then they are admitting what was done to them is wrong. If they agree with it, the function of their penis has been hindered, they agree it is flawed. That's hard to admit. That would be like a woman who had her breasts removed at birth "jic" and cannot breastfeed. They probably might have a hard time admitting breast milk is superior to formula. It's a defense mechanism. Does that make sense?

I think it's terrible that they have been victimized. I have met and dated (prior to learning about circing) some amazing circumcised men. The sex was horrible and painful for me. I spent many years ASSUMING something was wrong with me, all along, it was not me. I just cannot enjoy sex with a circed penis. Maybe I would miss out on some amazing men, but I can't get over it and it's painful for me.

[NaturalMindedMomma]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

Well, when it comes to psychological reasoning, I don't think that anybody here has a good understanding of what drives people's actions. I find that people tend to think that they know everything, but in reality they know very little. For example, the reasoning that you mention is not universal and certainly does not apply to all circumcised men.

While I understand that a disagreement between you and your partner on circumcision may be a deal breaker, the mere fact that that some men are circumcised should not be in my opinion a deciding factor in who you date. The argument that you are using can be also used by a woman who has a preference for circumcised men. In such a scenario, one can say that one only dates circumcised men so that one does not have to deal with the circumcision debate in the future. I am sorry, but I think such reasoning is completely idiotic and does not lead to a constructive discussion on the subject. Yes, people may have preferences, but again I can't see why those would matter much if at all during dating. After all, I think a person's personality, education, and intelligence are far more important than the cosmetic look of genitals. Lastly, I just don't buy the argument that sex with circumcised men is so terrible it's undesirable. If intimacy is any way uncomfortable, there are various ways to deal with such issues.

The only reason a woman would prefer a circed penis is ignorance. It is a flawed, scarred, piece of the male anatomy. It is not in working function.

What ways can I deal with "such issues"? Are you referring to lube? Tried it, the friction of the circed penis dries it up. So I should not enjoy sex so you can be ok with your penis? Not my problem buddy! When you have a vagina come talk to me...

[tennisdude23]

Well, actually I am uncut. By that's beside the point. I don't want to continue to argue this any longer because I think I made valid points, and what I am saying now is beyond the scope of this thread. The only thing that I want to emphasize is the fact that you should not dump a guy because he is cut. If you do, then I am sorry, but you are the one who is in the wrong. If you care for the guy, his penis status should not be the determining factor in the course of your relationship.

PS: I just want to point out that the "when you have a vagina come talk to me argument," is the same one that some guys like to use when they decide the issue of circumcision. Remember, the "I have a penis, I will decide" line. Yeah, it's exact same argument you tried to cut me off with. I think that most of us here are at a consensus that such tactics are divisive and don't address issues in a comprehensive manner. So, my suggestion is don't use them.

[Claire and Boys]

My husband is circumcised. I am with him because I love him, not because of his penis, but there aren't any real ways around the fact that sex IS painful for me and always has been with him.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

Well, actually I am uncut. By that's beside the point. I don't want to continue to argue this any longer because I think I made valid points, and what I am saying now is beyond the scope of this thread. The only thing that I want to emphasize is the fact that you should not dump a guy because he is cut. If you do, then I am sorry, but you are the one who is in the wrong. If you care for the guy, his penis status should not be the determining factor in the course of your relationship.

PS: I just want to point out that the "when you have a vagina come talk to me argument," is the same one that some guys like to use when they decide the issue of circumcision. Remember, the "I have a penis, I will decide" line. Yeah, it's exact same argument you tried to cut me off with. I think that most of us here are at a consensus that such tactics are divisive and don't address issues in a comprehensive manner. So, my suggestion is don't use them.

You emphasize your point that a woman shouldn't prefer intact men vs. cut men, but you don't address the very VALID issue of circ'd sex being painful for some women. Why is that? And no, lube isn't a band-aid for it.

[tennisdude23]

Originally Posted by Papai

You emphasize your point that a woman shouldn't prefer intact men vs. cut men, but you don't address the very VALID issue of circ'd sex being painful for some women. Why is that? And no, lube isn't a band-aid for it.

Actually, no, you completely missed what I was trying to say. I think everybody has the right to preferences. I also think that painful sex due to male circumcision is a valid issue for some, and I don't dismiss that. Nevertheless, the mere fact that a guy is circumcised should not be a determining factor in someone's decision to date the said person. I think that there are factors of much greater importance in determining the success of a relationship. That's only what I am saying. If I acknowledge that one's circumcision is an important factor in determining who dates who, then what I am doing is no better than the person who won't date an intact guy because he/she thinks intact penises are gross.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by tennisdude23

Actually, no, you completely missed what I was trying to say. I think everybody has the right to preferences. I also think that painful sex due to male circumcision is a valid issue for some, and I don't dismiss that. Nevertheless, the mere fact that a guy is circumcised should not be a determining factor in someone's decision to date the said person. I think that there are factors of much greater importance in determining the success of a relationship. That's only what I am saying. If I acknowledge that one's circumcision is an important factor in determining who dates who, then what I am doing is no better than the person who won't date an intact guy because he/she thinks intact penises are gross.

But the problem is there's a false equivalency here.

Intact = Natural. That's the way we're created, the way we're born.

Circumcised = Unnatural. That's how men end up when their penises have been surgically altered.

Would you ever hear a woman say, "Ew! I can't believe that guy has two eyeballs! One eye is much cuter! I'm only dating one-eyed guys." ? Of course not, cause it's normal to have two eyes.

Just to give another example, fake breasts. While I certainly wouldn't say that a woman with fake breasts ISN'T attractive, I much prefer NATURAL breasts to hard, surgically-altered, fake breasts. Does that make me shallow? Would I automatically turn down a woman who has fake breasts? Perhaps not, but it'd definitely be a strong negative and if I hadn't already formed a bonding relationship with her, I'd probably move on.

As for the circ and painful sex, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it's totally reasonable and valid for a woman to seek out intact partners if she's had bad experiences with circ'd ones. Not that it means that every single circ'd man WOULD result in painful sex, I'm sure looser circs would work better. Nonetheless, I don't think a woman should have to endure painful sex just to avoid a "shallow" label. If the parts aren't working right, they just aren't.