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question about the ten commandments - Page 2

post #21 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freud View Post
Does it say somewhere in the NT that the laws of the OT are not to be abided by anymore?
I don't think it does.

But my understanding is that if Christians follow the rules of loving God and loving their neighbors as themselves, then 9 of the ten commandments will be fulfilled, anyway.

Actually, I don't think Christians are bound to keep a Sabbath day, either. The Sabbath is a Jewish law. I could be wrong, of course.
post #22 of 54
Quote:
Does it say somewhere in the NT that the laws of the OT are not to be abided by anymore?
'Not to be abided by' isn't quite right; it's more like 'not to be binding'. Check out Galatians. The main theme of the book is 'freedom from the law'--Paul was writing to Christians who were suffering persecution from 'Judaizers'--Jewish professing Christians who felt that it was still necessary to keep the OT laws, and specifically that Gentile Christians should convert to Judaism as part of their conversion to Christianity, and undergo circumcision and so on. There are numerous other discussions of the issue in the NT, but Galatians is perhaps the pithiest--it's only 6 chapters, and well worth reading if you're interested in that issue. It deals with the ever-complicated issue of 'If Christians are free from the law, how then should we live?'.
post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freud View Post
Does it say somewhere in the NT that the laws of the OT are not to be abided by anymore?
Well it does say that the ordinances were nailed to the cross. This would include the Levitical laws, animal sacrifices, etc. I don't believe that includes the 10 commandments which are God's moral laws for all.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
post #24 of 54
Quote:
I don't believe that includes the 10 commandments which are God's moral laws for all.
Why do you think that? They were given specifically to the Israelites, and included references to Caanan ('that your days may be long in the land the Lord your God has given you') and to the Exodus. You can't make them generic without leaving bits out.

It's a delicate area, because of course I feel Christians should refrain from idol worship, murdering, adultery and so forth--we're all in agreement that these are good things. But behaving in a way which happens to coincide with the 10C, as a natural expression of our love for God and in obedience to our consciences as informed by Scripture, is different to obeying the 10Cs because we feel we are bound by the Law, or that obeying the 10Cs will get us closer to or into Heaven. It's kind of a subtle distinction, but it was apparently important enough to write Galatians about, and it does have wider implications; so forgive me for being nit-picky!
post #25 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Why do you think that? They were given specifically to the Israelites, and included references to Caanan ('that your days may be long in the land the Lord your God has given you') and to the Exodus. You can't make them generic without leaving bits out.

It's a delicate area, because of course I feel Christians should refrain from idol worship, murdering, adultery and so forth--we're all in agreement that these are good things. But behaving in a way which happens to coincide with the 10C, as a natural expression of our love for God and in obedience to our consciences as informed by Scripture, is different to obeying the 10Cs because we feel we are bound by the Law, or that obeying the 10Cs will get us closer to or into Heaven. It's kind of a subtle distinction, but it was apparently important enough to write Galatians about, and it does have wider implications; so forgive me for being nit-picky!
Because I believe they are God's moral standard. Every sin fits under one of the commands, and the two that Jesus spoke of are fullfilled by keeping them and vice versa, they coincide. Before God wrote them down it was still a sin to have other God's before Him, it was still a sin to murder and so on. God's moral laws did'nt just all the sudden begin for only the Israelites.

I agree with you about being bound by it or thinking we can earn our way to God or heaven by keeping them alone, that is clearly not so. I believe if we love God we will obey them.
As we read below these two make up all of the 10. There has to be guidelines for how to love God and our neighbor as self. Where else would we find those guidelines?

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


These are the ones that set it to rest for me. I don't think heaven and earth have passed away. I know what I was taught growing up as a southern baptist preachers daughter and what most are taught today, but I wanna know what God wants not what men are teaching.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
post #26 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakybird View Post
Because I believe they are God's moral standard. Every sin fits under one of the commands, and the two that Jesus spoke of are fullfilled by keeping them and vice versa, they coincide. Before God wrote them down it was still a sin to have other God's before Him, it was still a sin to murder and so on. God's moral laws did'nt just all the sudden begin for only the Israelites.

I agree with you about being bound by it or thinking we can earn our way to God or heaven by keeping them alone, that is clearly not so. I believe if we love God we will obey them.
As we read below these two make up all of the 10. There has to be guidelines for how to love God and our neighbor as self. Where else would we find those guidelines?

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


These are the ones that set it to rest for me. I don't think heaven and earth have passed away. I know what I was taught growing up as a southern baptist preachers daughter and what most are taught today, but I wanna know what God wants not what men are teaching.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I thin you make a very good point!

God's moral law DID exist before the 10 commandments. and it exists now. The theme of the NT isn't "throw out the old and bringbin the new". it's more like... "here is the fullfilment and purpose of the old. live it with heart and not with hope of attaining perfection through it"

I think when people read the NT and see that God condemned some pharisees and people of the law for keeping the law the way they do, that it seems as if He is saying "throw out the law!". but I believe He is saying to them that they are being blinded by the law - thinking it makes them perfect in God's eyes. and it wasn't given to make us perfect, but to glorify God.

there is a GIGANTIC difference in ceremonial law and moral law. That doesn't mean I think ceremonial law wasn't important - all laws God gave were important. but sometimes they were given to a certain person or people or culture for certain reasons. sometimes the undertone is moral and therefore still applies.

the old testament makes it clear he wants women to dress with modesty and grace. as a christian, if I looked in the NT and assumed we are covered by grace then I could easily say that how we dress doens't matter at all b/c we're forgiven and covered in grace, on the other hand if you look even closer you see Paul still urges us to have modesty and grace as women. (2 Corinthians 11 for instance) If we stick to the two laws of Love god with all your heart and love your neighbor.. then we will be encompassing the desire to want to uphold all of God's morals laws and guidelines b/c of our desire to honor him... not b/c of what we get out of it.
post #27 of 54
If you look in the New Testament, 9 of the ten commandments are repeated (meaning they are binding for Christians). The one commandment that is not is the one to keep the Sabbath day holy.
post #28 of 54
Darn you. Now I've had to spend hours looking up Christians and the OT law, and of course I got distracted and ended up reading about Servetus and evolution and PETA's position on abortion (not related to each other, I might add, just through random linkage), and now it's nearly 11AM and I'm not dressed. Rotters.

I think this article illustrates some of what I was trying to say. The distinction between moral, civil and Levitical law isn't as clear-cut as I once thought. It addresses the Colossians passage too. That said, I haven't had time to read it very thoroughly.
post #29 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW View Post
If you look in the New Testament, 9 of the ten commandments are repeated (meaning they are binding for Christians). The one commandment that is not is the one to keep the Sabbath day holy.
this made me really think. It's not that I hadn't thought about the issue before (I have) but sometimes someone words something in such a way that makes you think... "hadn't thought about it in that light yet!"

so I spent some of the morning looking it up. of course then I never finished b/c I get busy with you know... giving the basic necessities like food and attention to the children But I'm bringing it up to my husband tomorrow. (he fell asleep on the couch so it's kinda hard to converse deep topics with him at present)
post #30 of 54
Keeping the sabbath holy? Sunday mass obligation and refraining from unnecessary work.
post #31 of 54
Thread Starter 
i think it's true that nowhere in the new testament are christians told to keep sabbath, but the early christians clearly did. i'm skeptical that each of the other 9 commandments are restated in the new testament, but that doesn't really matter. i never thought christians were "required" to follow the ten commandments, like, to "get into heaven" or something, but i did think most christians valued and tried to keep the commandments.

in any important relationship, whether it's parent-child, a romantic relationship, or even something like employment, we try to figure out what the other person wants, because we want to please them, and if we really trust and respect that person, we consider their advice to be priceless. then again, no matter how important someone is to us, even when we know what they want, there are times we have reasons for making a different choice.

but, you know, it's completely personal, and some "message" i may get in my relationship may be totally different from what someone else is getting, from the same person, and that's cool. i don't have a problem with it. in fact, that's what i was hoping for when i asked what this meant to each of you, because it wouldn't be very interesting if we all took it, and lived it, the same way.
post #32 of 54
It was ultimately this thought that lead me away from christianity. I had pondered for a long time why we were not observing the commandments. I was told some of the same things that have been said here but when I studied it fully, I just didn't agree. As someone above posted I didn't want to follow men's teachings but looked to what G-d wanted. I looked into when it changed, who changed it (not G-d) and why, as the early church did observe the seventh-day Sabbath. So for many years as a christian I began to informally observe the Sabbath. It felt wonderful and restful and I began to think.... if it is so great, and I am not even doing it formally, then why this idea that it is negative and legalistic?

I really felt originally that my studies would lead me to an early-type church christianity but the more I studied.... it led me completely out of the religion. I could no longer repeat verbatim what I had been taught with a belief that it was true. Among other differences that I could not believe in.

So that led me on a path of conversion to Judaism. :

Yesterday my rabbi was asking about my conversion journey and I told him that the 10 commandments were the starting point of my journey.

I finally feel like those things make sense now instead of explaining it away.
post #33 of 54
I totally understand and respect what yo are saying. but it also seems implied that you now have knowledge of things you dind't when you were a Christian.., but correct me if I'm wrong, you don't have knowledge and understanding of all the things you didn't when you were a christian, right?

I guess I mean to say... and without sounding snide or snarky... it's kinda easy to say to someone "oh I ddn't understand so I gave it up b/c it didn't make sense to me". well... I mean... how do I say this and not sound snotty? it's kinda insulting to a bunch of people of one religion to say to them "yeah, you don't get it... and it makes no sense, so that's why I came here". as it implies their not very smart. and really? I know jewish people who claim not to "get it" but they do it anyways b/c they feel they want to honor god. so really, how is this different from Christianity? I do not feel I need to understand every last thing in the texts in order to be totally ok. there will ALWAY be things I don't fully understand. but... looking at them from anothr prospective may clear one issue up and open up another questin ykwim?

I'm glad you found a path for you to god. I'm not insulting that at all! please, please understand. all I mean to say it that you're giving the impression that all these questions can be answered by switching religions...? (if not, please do clarify)


FWIW, I KNOW a lot of Christians have this arrogant attitude of "we know best and if you would come to our side you'd know best too" and I'm just not of that camp. it's arrogant, frankly. so I just wanted to clarify that's not what I am implying AT ALL. (just so there is no misunderstandings)
post #34 of 54
Quote:
So for many years as a christian I began to informally observe the Sabbath. It felt wonderful and restful and I began to think.... if it is so great, and I am not even doing it formally, then why this idea that it is negative and legalistic?
It isn't negative and legalistic, necessarily--it's supposed to be a God-given time of rest. But it can become legalistic very easily, and that's the danger. Like the family I mentioned where the kids weren't allowed to leave the living room all day. The 'We Don't Do This On Sunday Because That's Not What We Do' attitude, which isn't about holiness at all. It isn't just the Sabbath issue that has this danger, it's any issue. You can dress modestly out of respect for God, or you can dress modestly because Skirts Shorter Than X Inches Are Indecent. You know?

Quote:
FWIW, I KNOW a lot of Christians have this arrogant attitude of "we know best and if you would come to our side you'd know best too" and I'm just not of that camp. it's arrogant, frankly.
Um... you're a relativist?
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Um... you're a relativist?

I mean that admittedly, a lot of Christians do tend that hold this false attitude of since they are Christian they all have it figured out. I've seen and heard people "witnessing" to those of other religions about how since they became Christians God has made it all clear etc etc etc...

I don't mean anything snarky about it. I mean that God isn't all clear to anyone, period. just by being Chirstians (or jewish or islamic) doesn't give one the ability to fully understand the capacity of God.

my point was intending to be... that well, if you switch religions purely b/c you think one will give more clarity on any given subject, you will only find more questions on other things. If i switched to, I dunno... Buddhism? (far random example) this may "answer" my question about ---- but it would also bring up other question that the religion itself couldn't answer. Religions beliefs need to be believed more than just for the reason of which gives the most clarity. it's also about finding truth in the whole of it. nt just in understanding a few rules, regulations and traditions. I believe in Christianity. I believe it is the one truth. but... I believe that God has given all beings the ability and right to make this journey on their own accord. It is not for me to tell someone "this is what you should do". or to promise them certain clarity. I am sold completely on Christianity, but it took a journey that God brought me through to come there. and by all means, I still have a TON of questions. Do I believe I have the correct path, for sure. But i don't go around saying "I'm right, your wrong... so be right like me". b/c... that ain't how it works. It's a journey, not just a simple decision. and fwiw, I respect that other people of other religions may feel this very same way towards me. but you know? again... I disagree with them.. but I respect their right to believe how they do.
post #36 of 54
Understood; thanks.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Understood; thanks.
perhaps my sentiment was best left in my head it wasn't very clear what I meant. sorry about that.
post #38 of 54
I had a good SDA friend in Grad school and her whole way of keeping the Sabbath really influenced me. I thought it was lovely... as we never did anything approachign that growing up Presbyterian.

I came across this great book that you might like. It's called "Keeping the Sabbath Wholly" http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Sabbat...9821240&sr=8-1
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freud View Post
Yes, I know that. But why? It's all the same Bible.
As I was taught, Paul told the early Christians to be pure and circumcised in spirit. Christians are not bound to the dietary laws either.

As I recall, the Christians saw Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament and therefore they lived under the New Testament laws.

As I understand it, there are also the Noahic laws and the ten commandments that everyone should follow. Jews have 613 laws to follow.
post #40 of 54
I really think that many Christians (although not MDC-mamas ) are unaware of how they are following the teachings of Paul more than Jesus in many instances. A man who never even met Jesus.
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