JW family and Christmas celebration *update post 21*

[Tofu the Geek]

I am having a tough time with something and would like some input from others. If you need more info from me, please feel free to ask.

We're having DH's family (and mine) over for a get together on Boxing Day this year. We likely won't see his family before that, so this is going to be the "Christmas" get together. The adults aren't exchanging gifts but everyone gets gifts for the kids, so there will be gift opening.

DH has a couple of siblings that converted to JW years ago (I'm thinking approx. 15 years ago), one lives close with a spouse (also JW). DH's mom told me that I should invite them and then they have the option of coming or not. She said she's not sure if they will come, they might because it's Boxing Day and not actually Christmas, but at least they were invited. Now, every year they get invited to whoever's place is having people over and never show up if it's the "Christmas dinner" but did show up last year for an dinner that was after Christmas, but still a holiday get together. It's actually hard to figure out what event they deem appropriate and what they do not.

My problem comes with something petty....the Christmas gifts. Let's say they do come, they will absolutely not bring gifts for the children. I know this, as my children have never received a gift from them on any special occasion. Not a big deal, they aren't at our house on birthdays or any other gift giving occasion normally, so I don't expect a gift. I guess my issue is that I kind of think that if they are coming to our house for a Christmas get together, then they should particpate in what we have going on (in this case gifts for the kids). I mean, the rest of DH's family is Catholic so we get invited to all the Catholic stuff for the kids and I always research it and bring a gift if that's tradition, and I follow what everyone is doing in church, sing the songs, say the prayers, etc. and I'm an atheist. I figure if I chose to attend the event, then I am there to participate and not to make a point about my beliefs. If I wasn't willing to participate, I wouldn't attend.

I guess I am confused as to whether or not they should be invited and if so, should my invite state clearly what is expected (i.e. an email to everyone invited saying come over for a holiday get together, the adults won't be exchanging gifts but everyone will be getting gifts for the kids). DH thinks I will offend them if I send that out, but I am so confused as to what will offend and what won't. Or maybe I should just skip inviting them entirely, because maybe that will bother them too?

If any JWs have any opinion on this, it would be greatly appreciated (opinions from non JWs are fine too!). DH and his family don't have the best communication so he definitely won't talk upfront to his sibling about this.

[woodchick]

I say, invite them. They have the choice not to come. I assume that they understand that gift giving is a tradition at Christmas and will not need to be reminded. But gift giving- no matter how many people do it- is not mandatory in my mind. Especially if it is against personal religious beliefs.

I think that making it mandatory to bring gifts on the invite would offend more than just a couple people and I'm sure that's not what you mean to do.

[Adele_Mommy]

I think you should invite them and let them make their own decision as to whether or not the event fits with their religious beliefs. Regarding the gifts, I would send out the exact same invitation you would have if you had no idea of the religion of the invitees.

It sounds to me like this is a secular celebration, so it's not really the same as attending a religious event like a baptism at a Catholic church.

Just my : as a non-JW.

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by woodchick

I say, invite them. They have the choice not to come. I assume that they understand that gift giving is a tradition at Christmas and will not need to be reminded. But gift giving- no matter how many people do it- is not mandatory in my mind. Especially if it is against personal religious beliefs.

I think that making it mandatory to bring gifts on the invite would offend more than just a couple people and I'm sure that's not what you mean to do.

I totally see where you're coming from but if I use my previous example attending a Catholic event for little girls who can take communion now (I cannot remember what's it's called!). Everything at the event was against my beliefs, yet I went and participated for the kids. I even bought a religious gift because that is what I read was tradition. Are you saying I could have just showed up without a gift, stood at the door of the church but not gone in, not sung or anything and it would be okay because it was against my beliefs? Wouldn't that have been completely rude? And I am not trying to be sarcastic here, I am seriously asking as perhaps I am doing more than what is expected of me. I kind of figure if it's something you don't believe in, then you don't participate in any of the event.

I should add to that I wasn't trying to remind anyone about the gift giving, more just letting them know that nobody has to buy gift for the adults because we're only doing the kids this year (the other siblings need to know this too so people aren't in a kafluffle trying to get gifts for all the adults as well).

[Pyrodjm]

As a JW, I would not attend anything labeled a holiday celebration. I would not attend an event where gift exchange and other holiday "stuff" would be taking place. I say don't even bother inviting them to your holiday affairs, I highly doubt they will be offended.

At times, my non-JW family, mainly my grandma, will invite the family over for a meal around holiday time ie. the Saturday or Sunday after Thanksgiving. She knows that the rest of the fam does not celebrate holidays, so when we go it is always clear that we are attending because we like visiting her and enjoy each other's company. She gets family time we get a great meal and everyone wins.

[LeighB]

Converted Jw here, Dh is Jw too. If you are worried about seeming polite, go ahead and send an invite, but perhaps put on it that it's a holiday celebration, then they have the option of not coming.
Dh, who was born a JW, does not attend any celebrations like that. I just converted, so sometimes I still attend birthday like things.

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

I think you should invite them and let them make their own decision as to whether or not the event fits with their religious beliefs. Regarding the gifts, I would send out the exact same invitation you would have if you had no idea of the religion of the invitees.

It sounds to me like this is a secular celebration, so it's not really the same as attending a religious event like a baptism at a Catholic church.

Just my : as a non-JW.

Sorry I missed your reply earlier. The celebration is secular for my family, but the rest of DH's family is Catholic so the event may have a different meaning to them.

A question though, because an event (any event, not this even specifically) is secular, does that mean it's okay to break tradition? Whereas if it's religious event it's not okay to break the tradition?

[Arduinna]

If you invite them, I'd make sure it's very clear on the invite that there will be Christmas gift exchange and whatever other special things you have planned. That way they can decide if it's appropriate or not with full disclosure.

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by Pyrodjm

As a JW, I would not attend anything labeled a holiday celebration. I would not attend an event where gift exchange and other holiday "stuff" would be taking place. I say don't even bother inviting them to your holiday affairs, I highly doubt they will be offended.

Would you be offended if I DID invite you? I'm just thinking that maybe they want to come, kind of like when you go to dinner at your grandma's?

Originally Posted by LeighB

Converted Jw here, Dh is Jw too. If you are worried about seeming polite, go ahead and send an invite, but perhaps put on it that it's a holiday celebration, then they have the option of not coming.
Dh, who was born a JW, does not attend any celebrations like that. I just converted, so sometimes I still attend birthday like things.

That's what DH was thinking. He wanted to phrase it like it's a holiday thing very simply, like "hey everyone, we're going to have everyone over to celebrate the holidays on the 26th. Let us know if you can come." He figured it was important to point out that it was a holiday celebration so they weren't caught off guard when there was presents, mistletoe and such. Then again, I didn't want to offend them by inviting them to something that I should know they won't attend (like I said though, I am confused as to what they do and do not attend and the crappy communication in the family hasn't helped me find out).

And thank you both for your replies!

[woodchick]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

I totally see where you're coming from but if I use my previous example attending a Catholic event for little girls who can take communion now (I cannot remember what's it's called!). Everything at the event was against my beliefs, yet I went and participated for the kids. I even bought a religious gift because that is what I read was tradition. Are you saying I could have just showed up without a gift, stood at the door of the church but not gone in, not sung or anything and it would be okay because it was against my beliefs? Wouldn't that have been completely rude? And I am not trying to be sarcastic here, I am seriously asking as perhaps I am doing more than what is expected of me. I kind of figure if it's something you don't believe in, then you don't participate in any of the event.

Just my opinion, but here's how I'd see your example: If you, as a non-Catholic, are invited to a First Communion ceremony you have a choice to attend or not attend. If you can't bring yourself to enter a church you should stay home (ie: rude to stand at the door). However, if you want to support your niece, it is not rude to show up and not sing or pray or kneel. Just because you are at a church doesn't mean you 100% have to participate- I'd say just be respectful. I don't think you'd be obligated to give a specifically religious gift. If you want to give a gift you could give money. Or just a nice card commemorating a significant moment in her life. I assume that your main goal would be to be a supportive part of her life, and being there for her would mean more than the gift.

Back to the topic at hand. I think I agree with your husband, invite everyone with the same 'hook'- post holiday meal and celebration. If you are inviting your JW family because you would like to visit and converse with them then you shouldn't expect anything other than that from them. Especially since you know their beliefs.

I'm not JW and I don't know any, but I really think that they know what's going on. They know how Christmas works and how the family works and if they're uncomfortable attending they'll decline. Does the family get together on non-holiday occasions? That might be a good solution- have a get together at the end of January or whatever, just to bond as family.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

Sorry I missed your reply earlier. The celebration is secular for my family, but the rest of DH's family is Catholic so the event may have a different meaning to them.

A question though, because an event (any event, not this even specifically) is secular, does that mean it's okay to break tradition? Whereas if it's religious event it's not okay to break the tradition?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but to clarify what I meant by saying this was a secular party is your OP seemed to be saying a JW attending your party and participating is like you attending a Catholic event and participating, but I don't think they are really comparable. JWs have a prohibition against celebrating holidays. If this is a holiday celebration, then I agree with those who say they probably will not attend. But since the event is not on Christmas and your MIL said they might come for this reason, I thought you were intentionally just having a family get-together and not making it a holiday celebration. If this is a "Christmas" party, they won't come regardless of the day (or at least as JW's they shouldn't). When I was in High School I ran a puppet group for younger kids and there was a JW in the group. She could not participate in our Halloween or Christmas show because that was celebrating the holidays regardless of what day we had the performance. On the other hand, I can't imagine they would be offended at being invited, but depending on how you word the invitation, I could see them thinking it was just a family get-together and being offended to arrive and find it was actually a holiday celebration. As long as you are clear about what you are doing, you should be fine. You don't need to specifically mention presents unless you were going to anyway to make it clear that adults don't need to give to each other.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

That's what DH was thinking. He wanted to phrase it like it's a holiday thing very simply, like "hey everyone, we're going to have everyone over to celebrate the holidays on the 26th. Let us know if you can come." He figured it was important to point out that it was a holiday celebration so they weren't caught off guard when there was presents, mistletoe and such.

This sounds perfect to me and I really don't think they will be offended. I also don't think they will come.

[Ruthla]

Since you have such poor communication with these relatives, you don't really have any way of knowing whether or not this "family dinner" will be a problem for them or not. So, invite them, let them know what kind of get-together you have planned, and let THEM decide if they're comfortable coming or not.

If they're unable to make it (or choose not to) you might want to extend them another invitation, just to visit, when it's not near any holidays.

[Pyrodjm]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

Would you be offended if I DID invite you? I'm just thinking that maybe they want to come, kind of like when you go to dinner at your grandma's?

I would not be offended by an invitation. I would just politely decline. Just be sure that the invite mentions that it IS a holiday get together. I agree with your husband on this one. Since this is not just a family dinner, but an extension of your holiday celebration, it is only fair to let your family know. Especially if you are expecting gifts and such from other guests. This way everyone knows exactly what is happening.

[Pyrodjm]

Originally Posted by TechnoGranola

A question though, because an event (any event, not this even specifically) is secular, does that mean it's okay to break tradition? Whereas if it's religious event it's not okay to break the tradition?

I'll try to answer this, though I'm not quite sure what you're asking. JW's don't attend any secular holiday celebrations (ie. Fourth of July BBQ, Mother's Day Brunch, etc.) or religious (ie. Easter Dinner ), birthday celebrations or religious events of other faiths (baptism, communion, etc). We do generally attend bridal and baby showers, graduations, weddings and other life event type parties. HTH.

[lolar2]

In my experience, Jehovah's Witnesses are not easily offended. Remember they go door-to-door witnessing on a regular basis, which annoys most of the people on the other side of the door. They've heard it all. So I think you can be perfectly blunt and detailed about exactly what the celebration is, letting the invited relatives make the choice, and they most likely will not be offended.

[waiting2bemommy]

As a JW, i wou;dn't be offended if you invited me to a christmas family get together, but I also wouldn't go. that being said, I took my ds over thanksgiving to visit his father's side of the family (dh and i are separated). My dh and his family are not jw's. My solution was to go thanksgiving night to the house where his cousins were all hanging out. there was food, not turkey specifically but just random food, and various family memebers came in and out. I felt like t was the perfect to introduce ds to his cousins/aunts and enjoy a family get together, without the awkwardness of turning down a formal thanksgiving dinner, which would have gone against my religious beliefs. Don't know if that helps any.... if i were you, I would just call them up and say what you said here, and give them a chance to decide.

[dnr3301]

it kinda sounds like you want them to come only if they are willing to bring gifts for the kids.

Would it be ok for them to come and just hang out, and not participate in that part of the night?

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by Pyrodjm

I'll try to answer this, though I'm not quite sure what you're asking. JW's don't attend any secular holiday celebrations (ie. Fourth of July BBQ, Mother's Day Brunch, etc.) or religious (ie. Easter Dinner ), birthday celebrations or religious events of other faiths (baptism, communion, etc). We do generally attend bridal and baby showers, graduations, weddings and other life event type parties. HTH.

I was referring to the post where the poster said that a secular event was not the same as religious event

It sounds to me like this is a secular celebration, so it's not really the same as attending a religious event like a baptism at a Catholic church.

making the implication that a secular event is not as important as a religious event. And for those of us that aren't religious, secular events often exhibit our beliefs and ARE as important as religious events.

Thank you for clarifying which events that a JW will attend. I am a still confused though as I don't understand why JWs won't attend a birthday celebration which is a life event? (I thought I had it figured out until birthdays had me confuzzled!)

[Tofu the Geek]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

it kinda sounds like you want them to come only if they are willing to bring gifts for the kids.

That is why I said I was being petty. I do want them to come, but I would also like them to participate in the non-religious tradition that is important to me. Just like I would participate in anything I was invited to (and if I wasn't willing to, I wouldn't come). I would never show up to a wedding shower, baby shower, birthday party, child's Christmas party etc. without a gift since it's part of the event.

Would it be ok for them to come and just hang out, and not participate in that part of the night?

That is what I am having a tough time with. I am not sure how I'd feel. On one hand, I want to respect their beliefs, and on the other hand I want them to respect mine. It's not specifically the gifts, it's more the principle. If I were invited to a specific event to of theirs, I would follow the tradition of their beliefs. If I was not able to do that, I would not show up.