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post #21 of 30
Quote:
The biggest factor I have noticed in encouraging and inspiring manners is the modelling of them. My children are very very polite(not 100% of course but who is) and "I" get complimented and asked all the time.

I have never actively "taught" manners however everyone(adult) in our family goes out of their way to be polite and thus exhibit the manners we want to see from the little ones. It seems to be working quite well. Of course there are tantrums and issues with frustration but these are usually from known causes..hunger/sleep etc. and their own particular personalities...some kids take disappointment in stride, some are devastated by it
Ditto for us. People always say that ds has awesome manners, but I don't remember ever forcing it. I always modeled it and gave gentle reminders when he was small. If he didn't cooperate I said "please" or "thank you" for him. He seemed to just internalize good manners along the way.

We also talk, now that he is older, about what a good impression he makes on people with his good manners. He knows to hold the door for ladies, to say please and thank you to anyone who does it for him, to compliment someone on a dinner they serve him etc. I don't care if it is old fashioned--good manners will take you far in almost any career, and a young man who knows traditional good manners is well poised to succeed. Bad manners can really hamper you in adulthood. I always tell him things others say about him to reinforce the fact that good manners go far in making a good impression in the adult world. "Everyone at work was so impressed by you. They said they never met such a well mannered young man." Ds really likes to hear that adults noticed he tried to make a good impression.
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by allgirls View Post
The biggest factor I have noticed in encouraging and inspiring manners is the modelling of them. My children are very very polite(not 100% of course but who is) and "I" get complimented and asked all the time.

I have never actively "taught" manners however everyone(adult) in our family goes out of their way to be polite and thus exhibit the manners we want to see from the little ones. It seems to be working quite well. Of course there are tantrums and issues with frustration but these are usually from known causes..hunger/sleep etc. and their own particular personalities...some kids take disappointment in stride, some are devastated by it
I just wanted to note that the modeling doesn't work for every child. We modeled and modeled and modeled and ds didn't get the polite phrases. It wasn't until his sister was born (she's 3 years younger) and then SHE started saying 'please' and 'thank you' unprompted at age 1 or 1 1/2 that I realized that ds wasn't learning these things.

Ds needed direct teaching. So, it's not a failure of parenting if your child needs direct teaching. It just means they're not as tuned to those social cues.
post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
I just wanted to note that the modeling doesn't work for every child. We modeled and modeled and modeled and ds didn't get the polite phrases. It wasn't until his sister was born (she's 3 years younger) and then SHE started saying 'please' and 'thank you' unprompted at age 1 or 1 1/2 that I realized that ds wasn't learning these things.

Ds needed direct teaching. So, it's not a failure of parenting if your child needs direct teaching. It just means they're not as tuned to those social cues.
Of course there are always exceptions. Good point.

I didn't experience that with my four daughters though.
post #24 of 30
This may be way off, but just wanted to say that trouble sleeping, plus small appetite, plus picky appetite, plus cranky and behavioral issues, plus self-harming (biting self for instance) can all be signs of GAPS-- Gut and Psychology Syndrome. For my oldest son, once we took care of his health issue, he started sleeping, cooperating, eating, and stopped self-harming. It's something to look into at least, you never know.
post #25 of 30
~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"

For that, I would repeat what I want to hear "may I please have some water mommy ?" until I heard it back, very sweetly. Then give the water. If they won't do it, no water, and a time-out for the attitude. Try again after the time-out.

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes

I give our 5-yo the option of helping me clean up, or having a time-out in his room while I clean up and for a while afterward as well. He chooses to help.

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...

I will not ever offer alternate food when I served something that they asked for. They eat it or go hungry.

I can trace their behavior problems to a couple of things:
1) Not enough sleep. Neither DD naps and they tend to go to bed too late and wake too early. I need to get them to bed earlier.

I would either enforce a naptime or an early bedtime.


So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH , and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.

For that behavior, esp throwing a chair, my child would get a long time-out, apologize to daddy, and then if she was hungry later, would only get back the food she refused earlier. And if there was still an attitude issue, she would go to bed for the night. There are situations that call for establishing very firm limits. That would be one of them.

Honestly what I would start would be a lot more firmness and structure...three square meals a day, at specified times, two healthy snacks, at scheduled times and of my choosing, and no other food choices. Also a set bedtime and if the little one still gets grouchy in the middle of the day a set naptime for her too.

Also, it sounds like they are yanking your chain a bit. I would go to a consistent response of immediate consequences. Basically, skip the dance of a child yanking your chain until you lose it. Just skip it and go straight to the action of a consequence. There is a book that explains this very well... Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child. It was a lifesaver for me...really turned things around with our DS1. Our home became a much more positive and happy place within a week and a half. Most of his bratty behavior was transformed that quickly. He learned that there was a new system in place and became a boy who wanted to please us with positive behavior. That was over 2 yrs ago and it is still working and has worked well for DS2 as well.
post #26 of 30
Quote:
~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"
I would reply with "Yes, you TOLD me. You did not politely ask me. Please ask politely when you want me to do for you." And if the demand is repeated, so is the reply.

CAUTION: Any alert toddler will turn this right around on you, so if you are in the habit of ordering them to do things, you can expect to get this used on you ... it's a learning experience.

Quote:
~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes
Simple consequence: tell them that before bedtime all clothing and toys have to be put away and things that are lying about might disappear. They won't do it, and when you do it after they are asleep, the toys and clothing vanish for a while. Just hide them in a lockable container somewhere.

Before you do this, thin out their possessions and make sure there is a "place for everything" before you insist that "everything be in its place". Make sure they can reach the storage, etc. My neighbor was really frustrated that her 4-year old wasn't taking care of his clothes when the real problem was he couldn't hang them up because he was too short, and half the drawers in the dresser were too high. We installed a lower closet rod and put in some bookcases with bins for his clothes. It helped

An easier, self-inflicted consequence: Stop insisting on adult-level order in their room: contain the chaos in there and only make things vanish if they are cluttering the rest of the house.

Remind them before bedtime that it's time to collect their stuff. Then you "police the public area" after the kids are in bed, and dump all the collection into a storage bin. Return it in a few days to weeks, by placing it in their room, in the correct place.

This has natural consequences:
1 - They will very quickly learn to collect their stuff at the appointed time to keep it from vanishing.

2 - Eventually they will be unable to find things in the clutter of their rooms. And if they can't find something because of all the clutter and complain to you, don't buy a replacement or help them find it.

Ask them if they think it would be easier to find ____ if they were always in the same place, with all of the ___ together? If they say "yes", ask them how they would set it up and help them do it. Your idea of organization might not be theirs. Even if they want to dump all the shoes in one box, it's a start. And in business terms, they have become a "stakeholder" in the plan. It may be shoes one week, trucks the next, but the self-inflicted consequences of clutter will slowly change their behavior.

Quote:
~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...
Hunger is a marvelous self-inflicted consequence. Take advantage of it.

Tell her, half an hour or so before the first mealtime of the new regime, that you will only fulfill one request per meal, so she has to choose carefully. It's her choice to eat it or not. If she doesn't eat it, she's apparently not hungry, mealtime is over. End of discussion, end of short order cooking. Yes, she'll pitch a hissy-fit a few times, but either she eats what she asks for or she goes hungry until the next regularly scheduled mealtime.

And by the next mealtime, she'll probably be hungry. If she repeats the same "want it, don't want it" ... let her experience two missed meals.

***************
llp34:
Yes ... consequences have to be very close in time to the infraction, or self-inflicted, or they don't sink in.
post #27 of 30
Can I give you a big hug and say that this post makes me feel good!! I just posted about wanting to give my kids away at times!! I am so glad I am not alone bratty kids. It makes me feel a little more normal today.
post #28 of 30
Quote:
Hunger is a marvelous self-inflicted consequence. Take advantage of it.

Tell her, half an hour or so before the first mealtime of the new regime, that you will only fulfill one request per meal, so she has to choose carefully. It's her choice to eat it or not. If she doesn't eat it, she's apparently not hungry, mealtime is over. End of discussion, end of short order cooking. Yes, she'll pitch a hissy-fit a few times, but either she eats what she asks for or she goes hungry until the next regularly scheduled mealtime.

And by the next mealtime, she'll probably be hungry. If she repeats the same "want it, don't want it" ... let her experience two missed meals.
If we are talking about small kids who have no access to fruit or healthy snacks between meals, I do not agree with such an extreme stance. However, I do agree that we can control our own actions. I would not make this, that, and the other just because my three year old was being fickle. However, refusing to make a new meal doesn't mean my child cannot eat. We always had simple snacks within reach that ds could get on his own from an early age. That way I was not forbidding all access to food, which I think is unhealthy. The parent can plan meals, but children really may not be hungry on schedule, and they shouldn't be punished for being hungry earlier or later than the rest of the family. I wouldn't want to live like that. My child doesn't either.

(I just quietly ate a chewy granola bar at my desk at work!)
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayGee View Post
DH and I have had it. Our children have become disrespectful and bratty. They expect to be catered to and refuse to help out.

Some examples:

~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...

I can trace their behavior problems to a couple of things:
1) Not enough sleep. Neither DD naps and they tend to go to bed too late and wake too early. I need to get them to bed earlier.
2) They've been watching too many DVDs :. We were TV free all summer, but I relapsed with the cold weather by allowing them DVDs. This is entirely my fault.
3) They don't eat enough, even though I provide healthy snacks. Both DDs are VERY picky.

So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH , and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.

To me, those aren't disrespectful or bratty.

DS does some of those things sometimes, and although it 'triggers' hubby to want to DO something (he was raised in a household with adults who hit), we've worked our way into being calm.

The demands for food or drink are simply countered with our need to have it said a bit better. I totally agree with what a PP said about the language needing to be more simple...so water please is a good variation of just WATER!

Not cleaning...I make it a game. A race. Who can put more legos into the bucket? I go slow, but my hand is bigger so a scoop for me is more than it is for DS. So DS is racing around grabbing the legos while I go leisurely and it all gets put away. Sometimes I "win", sometimes he does, but it ends in hugs and laughter and good feelings.

Eating. I always ate what was put in front of me. I was the oldest and my brother's nonsense with food made me nutty even at a young age. I remember eating his potatoes after AGES of sitting there, just so it would stop. I have food allergies and sensitivities, and my pregnancy was filled with more hardcore aversions to foods than cravings. I cried routinely throughout b/c the look, smell, taste or even texture, or even PERCEIVED texture of the food would make it absolutely intolerable.

My full sib and our three half sibs, all renowned food avoiders, seemed to protect themselves from the bad foods. They do NOT have allergies, sensitivities (except the full brother who can't be in a HOUSE with citrus being peeled or he starts sneezing no matter where he is, immediately after the citrus is peeled), or problems with food.

So the one who did not protect herself and who ate whatever was given to her to keep the peace has problems, and the ones who refused foods that seemed gross to them do not.

Needless to say, we do not ever force DS to eat something if he doesn't want to. I see a very strong cause and effect in the food behaviour in me and my sibs, and I do NOT want DS to have the same problem.

Therefore, sometimes he doesn't eat and sometimes he does. We try to never have a battleground at the table. It makes me sad, angry, and very very uncomfortable when it starts getting like that, and ultimately I have decided to BELIEVE my son when he wants to avoid something.


You mentioned in a later post that your daughter fell asleep VERY fast. That sort of stuff at the table is nearly ALWAYS a sign in our household that extreme sleepiness is at hand. So it's not a problem with her, but a problem in that her sleepiness wasn't noticed earlier. Especially the biting, oh especially the biting.

Also for us, there was biting before we discovered that DS can't have corn syrup in any way, shape, or form. After we finally figured that out, after he pretty much beat me up at a festival 20 minutes post-DumDum lollipop, he has been much more peaceful, though he will still act out (without biting) when over-tired.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophienaz View Post
You could see his ribs through his t-shirt, he was so skinny, and his eyes had dark circles underneath them, it drove me crazy but it also freaked me out.
Dark circles under eyes is often a sign of allergy. Dairy, especially. I can't give up dairy entirely, but when I have gone vegan in the past, my dark circles disappear altogether. As a child when eggs and dairy were our main protein source, despite my being allergic (runny nose) to eggs, I had enormous circles under my eyes b/c of the dairy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JayGee View Post
And here's where the problem comes in. I don't have good consequences. I grew up in a home where I would have gotten my mouth smacked for talking disrespectfully, and that's not an option here. DH grew up in a home where they were threatened with a switch if they misbehaved. Also not an option. It's like I'm frozen when these things happen. Basically, I'm ashamed to admit, I do nothing other than seethe.
Since you aren't going to react to these things like the parents did, you really might think of redefining those behaviours. Like I said, they aren't bratty or disrespectful in my head at all. Perfect? No. Something to strive for? Oh gosh no. But still, not the words you've described them as, not to us.

And once you don't see them in that way anymore, you can more easily respond positively to them, helping them find a different way of speaking, creating fun ways to clean up (or yes, put the THINGS into "time out", LOL, if they aren't being put away at all), noticing exhaustion earlier, and maybe respecting their food needs OR figuring out what they are really looking for.


With the food changes...I do sometimes reach my limit if he's asking for a variety of foods...just b/c he asks doesn't mean I always make it...I do make different things more often than hubby does sometimes, and other times he makes more (DS is in a growth spurt and required a grilled cheese sandwich at 11 o'clock last night, which he ate inside of 2 minutes, brushed teeth again, then fell asleep), but usually we can somehow find a compromise with DS, or just go with the PB&J and be done with it.


Good luck!
post #30 of 30
Thread Starter 
milkybean, thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I think reframing the behavior is a good idea. Everyone has had such great input here. Thank you all!

I've been quietly working with both DDs on asking for things rather than demanding them, and they are really making progress. Both DS and DD2 are being very helpful in the cleaning up department; DD1 likes to lay on the floor and "watch" all of us clean up while moving one toy about an inch away from where it was .

In terms of food, DH stumbled across something he calls the "lunch line" that my kids are crazy for and it's really helping. He sets up bowls and plates of all different things (lots of sliced veggies, fruit, cheese, ww crackers, rice, etc.) and each child gets a tray with divided sections. They then go through the lunch line (which is set up on the counter) and can pick whatever they'd like. They are eating so much more now, and much healthier than before. Now prepping the lunch line is a pain for me, but if it gets everyone eating, I won't complain .

They really are three wonderful, spunky, fun children. I do think they need a bit more guidance and direction from both DH and me though.
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