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Submission to authority (GD from a Biblical point of view) - Page 2

post #21 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by vickjul View Post
On a related note, I think the Biblical concept of authority is a lot different that the concept that plays out in modern society. In the world at large, authority seems to be about power and control, about whose interests trumps whose. The strong force their will on the weak, use the weak to accomplish their purposes, etc. Biblical authority, as demonstrated by Christ, however, is the antithesis of this. Christ forced His will on no one, used His power to help the weak, and ultimately laid down His life on behalf of those who were "under" Him. If anything, in the Biblical scheme of things, the needs of the weak trump all ... kind of like my 5-month-old's need for comfort at 2 a.m. trumps my need for sleep ...

that's well said and very true!! i really enjoyed reading that!
post #22 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
How do you handle when their choice is extremely disruptive or unhealthy for others in the home?
For me, I often find it helpful to imgaine what I would do if I had the same issue with my dh or a guest or something. It gets me thinking outside of the box of usual parenting norms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
For example: They are choosing to play loudly. I politely ask them to quiet down so that they do not wake the baby. They choose not to quiet down.

Result: Baby wakes.

My issue: Their behavior seems to only cause a consequence for ME.
Well, you are the only one feeling the immediate consequences-- you and the baby. But it is normal and healthy to, as a consequence of these actions, create healthy and respectful boundaries. For instance, if my dh was playing too loudly and woke the baby (um, this has happened a lot) then we might discuss options like making more space in between play spaces and baby sleeping spaces, and so forth. This will work with older children (maybe 3 or 4 and up) who are able to think reasonably to a degree. The older children will work with you on this when they feel close and bonded to you. For younger children, I would gently and respectfully and kindly create physical boundaries for them-- i.e., when baby is sleeping in one room they have to play in the other farthest room of the house and I might keep a safety gate up to keep them in the right place during the nap.

Or, I might rethink my desires. Is it really necessary for baby to sleep in a quiet atmosphere? Sometimes, it is, but other times, it might work better to allow baby to learn to sleep around the noise. Different solutions will look different for different families.

But the only other alternative is, what? To inspire your children to obey out of fear? By threatening, creating punishments, withdrawing your patient understanding, etc? I think that this creates distance between you and the child and this will lead them to act out more and be less cooperative in the long run. Remember, you want to keep them close to you and mommy-centered, not alienate them or allow them to withdraw emotionally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
Similarly: not leaving the house on time when I HAVE to go to work (they come with me) Consequence? I am late.
Give yourself more time to get everyone ready to go. Give yourself time to guide each child through the getting ready to go process in a cheerful and upbeat way, possibly making a game out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
Not cleaning up after themselves. Consequence? I have to clean it up. (if I do not want to be punitive and throw their stuff away or pack it away).
Well, in that case you only have so many options.

1.) You can get rid of a lot of toys (I don't think this is a bad thing. Children fro mthe beginning of time have lived and thrived with far fewer toys than children to day are used to. And what's better-- children with few toys who are close to their parents and find joy in pleasing their parents, or children with lots of toys who are constantly in conflict with their parents and feeling bad about it and acting out? If you do get rid of a ton of toys (we have done this a couple of times) do it cheerfully, with enthusiasm, non-punitively, and firmly, with confidence that this is a great thing that will make their lives happier-- and it will go over much better.

2.) Clean it up yourself. Really, what's so bad about that? I don't expect my children to wash their dishes, either! I pretty much expect to clean up after them all the time. I hope that by my cheerful example they will learn to love cleaning and they do often join in with enthusiasm. (They are only 4 and 2 now.) So of course I am going to clean up after them.

If they have more toys than I can comfortably clean up after, it's time to get rid of toys. I often invite them to help me clean up, but don't require it. I do keep their toys out of their reach and don't get new toys down for them until the "out" toys have been put away. (A rotation basis.) If I don't feel like putting the toys away right then, then they know that their options are either to 1. put the toys away themselves (sometimes they do) or 2. wait until later to play with a new toy.

So in this case the natural consequences are, have less toys, don't get to play with the toys, that sort of thing. NOT punishments, just the way to goes.

Like I wrote in my notes, natural consequences are often more work/less convenient for the parent. Punishment would be easier for the parent. But God does not punish us.
post #23 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by vickjul View Post
On a related note, I think the Biblical concept of authority is a lot different that the concept that plays out in modern society. In the world at large, authority seems to be about power and control, about whose interests trumps whose. The strong force their will on the weak, use the weak to accomplish their purposes, etc. Biblical authority, as demonstrated by Christ, however, is the antithesis of this. Christ forced His will on no one, used His power to help the weak, and ultimately laid down His life on behalf of those who were "under" Him. If anything, in the Biblical scheme of things, the needs of the weak trump all ... kind of like my 5-month-old's need for comfort at 2 a.m. trumps my need for sleep ...
LOVE this.
post #24 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
For me, I often find it helpful to imgaine what I would do if I had the same issue with my dh or a guest or something. It gets me thinking outside of the box of usual parenting norms.

the only thing with that approach is i would divorce my husband or kick my guests out if they treated me like my kids have sometimes, lol. now, i'm saying that half tongue in cheek of course....but seriously, my husband and guests probably wouldn't be around too long if they spoke to me or treated me as my kids have on some occassions.
post #25 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
the only thing with that approach is i would divorce my husband or kick my guests out if they treated me like my kids have sometimes, lol. now, i'm saying that half tongue in cheek of course....but seriously, my husband and guests probably wouldn't be around too long if they spoke to me or treated me as my kids have on some occassions.
post #26 of 129
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
the only thing with that approach is i would divorce my husband or kick my guests out if they treated me like my kids have sometimes, lol. now, i'm saying that half tongue in cheek of course....but seriously, my husband and guests probably wouldn't be around too long if they spoke to me or treated me as my kids have on some occassions.
post #27 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
....but seriously, my husband and guests probably wouldn't be around too long if they spoke to me or treated me as my kids have on some occassions.
So, what kinds of behavior are we talking about exactly? Now granted, my kids are younger (2 and 4), but I can't think of anything they do that I would kick my dh, or a guest, out over--

Let me see if I can think of an example-- well yesterday I was so tired I went and lay down in bed for a bit (exhausted and pregnant here!) and when I came out, the kids (who had been watching a movie) were using the sink sprayer-attachment-thing to spray water ALL OVER the kitchen. Everything was wet, dripping, and soaking. I was not pleased at all. It took several big bath towels to mop it all up.

So when I think in my head, what would I do if my dh did this? First off, based on our prior relationship, I would respect that it must have seemed like a good idea to him for some reason. I would realize that I need to respect him even if I feel he was in the wrong, because I want to protect out trusting and caring relationship. I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he did NOT do this to hurt me or make my life miserable. So the first thing I would do is listen to what he had to say about the situation. Perhaps DH would have some reasonable explanation for spraying the whole kitchen to soaking-- or at least, a reasonable excuse. Either way, I can be respectful and considerate-- modeling the behavior I want to see more of in my household-- and modeling the way I would like my dh to treat me, as well. After hearing his side of it, I would explain what I didn't like about it and what was bothering me, and we would work it out without blaming and anger.

In the situation with the kids, the biggest thing I can carry over from my hypothetical situation with dh, is trusting in their good intentions-- giving them the benefit of the doubt-- that they didn't do this on purpose to hurt or bug me. They're just being kids. In fact, if anyone was at fault, it was me, for leaving them unsupervised. So being angry at them is pointless (and unrighteous if I indulge it), and being punitive is unjust and will only make them feel bad for being normal, playful, inquisitive kids. Consideration for others is something that takes YEARS to learn. It's amazing how considerate we expect kids to be when they're so little!!! Sometimes we expect them to be more considerate than we might be in the same situation.

As for the "guest" scenario, it might help to imagine this is a guest from a completely different culture, with almost no exposure to Western culture and expectations at all. This is a guest that you have been entrusted to teach and guide while they are with you, and this is someone fairly important-- perhaps a prince or princess. Now imagione that this guest had made a huge mess of the kitchen with the sprayer hose. You wouldn't immediately get mad-- at least not as a good hostess-- you would try to find out what they were trying to do. How exactly did this happen. Maybe they didn't know how the sprayer works. Maybe they were trying to help clean the dishes. Maybe in their culture this is the way people clean a kitchen-- spray liberally with water and then mop up! You would simply explain your customs genially and then take steps to arrange for it not to happen in the future.

You could do this by: 1.) giving them information (some things are damaged by water; I don't like cleaning the kitchen this way, it's too messy; don't worry about cleaning the kitchen for me; I'll take care of it next time) 2.) and if necessary, creating boundaries for next time, like, for the duration of their visit with you, not leaving them alone with a sink full of dishes if you know they like "washing dishes", or not leaving them alone with water at all if it's just the water they like playing with and 3.) if you thought there was a bit of a disconnect in the relationship, that was making them not be as cooperative, trying to do things to "woo" your guest back into your good graces a little bit, or spend more time with them and 4.) guiding their actions more (in this culture they are not familiar with) to help them to make good choices.

So I hope you can see a little better what I meant by trying to think how you might act if it were your dh or a guest. It's not meant exactly literally, but as a tool to help you get away from the mom-always-right-kids-need-to-be-cooperative mindset.
post #28 of 129

and for older kids

Okay, now with older kids, sometimes kids do things deliberately to upset you. This is not something I have dealt with much yet. This might be one of those situations where you would kick out dh or a guest if they deliberately tried to hurt you/upset you.

Let's look at that scenario. If dh were deliberately trying to bother me/hurt me, it owuld be a major red flag that something was really wrong in our relationship. It would tell me immediately that he felt hisneeds were not being met/he felt hurt-- if he felt loved and close to me, this would absolutely not happen. So I would immediately and aggressively go about strengthening our relationship by 1.) meeting his needs 2.) being respectful, giving him his freedom, not punishing or aggravating him and 3.) being more lovable (i.e. courting or wooing his affections again).

I think as parents, when our children are acting out in a hurtful way, we need to not push them away further, but we need to "court" or "woo" them back into our loving arms again. We need to trust in their basic desire to be good, that if they feel right with us, they will not hurt us. If they feel loved and lovable in a relationship with a strong parent-guide, they will want to please us and follow our example, just like the little kids do. There's just more emotional baggage there than a little kids has-- more potential for anger and resentment and so forth. I love the book "Hold On To Your Kids" for more on this subject of "attachment parenting" for big kids and teens.
post #29 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
So, what kinds of behavior are we talking about exactly? Now granted, my kids are younger (2 and 4), but I can't think of anything they do that I would kick my dh, or a guest, out over--
my son has hit me & kicked me when angry (from age 1-3 we experienced that)....not popular with guests or dh, lol. my son has outgrown this phase...but he can still call me "diaper face" or "diaper head" and he went through a HUGE "i hate you" phase when he was 3 and young 4 (he'll be 5 soon). you can see my past posts about how much fun that was for me! again, this would not be well tolerated by me from dh or guests. lastly, if my husband or guests had tantrums repeatedly like my son has....oh yea, they would be outta here! lol.
post #30 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
my son has hit me & kicked me when angry (from age 1-3 we experienced that)....not popular with guests or dh, lol. my son has outgrown this phase...but he can still call me "diaper face" or "diaper head" and he went through a HUGE "i hate you" phase when he was 3 and young 4 (he'll be 5 soon). you can see my past posts about how much fun that was for me! again, this would not be well tolerated by me from dh or guests. lastly, if my husband or guests had tantrums repeatedly like my son has....oh yea, they would be outta here! lol.
Yeah, my two-year-old does hit me a lot. I pretty much ignore it or laugh at it. If it really hurts (ocassionally) I show him my displeasure.

The reason I would not tolerate or work with this kind of behavior from my husband would be because he is so powerful (physically) that it is just very dangerous. But if he were deliberately showing me disrespect in other fairly harmless ways, which might be more of an accurate parallel to a toddler's impetuous strikes, then I would work with him in the way I described in my last post.

With the preschool name-calling we turn it into a game. They call me diaper head I call them stinker butt. We go back and forth and laugh and hug. Actually, this is what I did with my husband too. We started dating when we were 18 and we used to call each names when we were angry. Eventually I realized that this was dynamic I wanted to change, so when he (or I myself) used a disrespectful term or name I would escalate it in a humorous and overly dramatic way, appealing to his sense of humour, sometimes ending with a ridiculous threat like "I will never talk to you ever again! Ever!" (The facial expressions here are key to making the humor work.) Well, anyway, my dh has a good sense of humor, so it worked-- it really diffuses the tension and makes everything feel less serious. Now when one of us gets angry and starts acting unreasonable, we just look at each other and say, "Jerk!" with a funny face and then burst out laughing and the tension is gone. It's great.

Don't know if any of that is immediately helpful or applicable to you but it worked for us.
post #31 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
Well, let's look at wifely submission which is considered by many (but not all of course) a Biblical principle.

If the husband requires and forces submission, (by punishing her or creating "consequences" for non-submission) is that healthy or okay? Would you agree with that? I wouldn't. I would call it abusive! However, if the wife willingly submits of her own free will for spiritual reasons, then that can be a beautiful thing.

So, for me, with my children it is the same thing. Parenting and raising our children should inspire them to want to submit to loving authority, by inspiring trust in those who have more power than they do. Certainly there are times when I lay down the law so to speak, but I try to avoid those times as much as possible. If you force a child to obey, they will most likely rebel, and they will certainly develop either an unhealthy resentment for authority, or an unhealthy attachment to authority (like, from the wrong places). People don't like being forced and it's not a healthy dynamic.

I can't think of a time Jesus never forced anyone to do anything, btw. The cleaning out of the temple might come close-- but I think that was different.

Here are some personal notes I wrote on this subject last week:



I'd love to dicuss this more, it's still something I am forming ideas on.

Thats a beautiful way to put it. Can I borrow your points in my discussions with DH about punishment??
post #32 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
Yeah, my two-year-old does hit me a lot. I pretty much ignore it or laugh at it. If it really hurts (ocassionally) I show him my displeasure.
If it is ok for your 2 yro to hit you, what do you do if he hits some one else? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just curious.

ETA: interesting thought on thinking of your children as you would your DH or a guest.... I'll have to chew on that for a while.
post #33 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmama_12 View Post
Thats a beautiful way to put it. Can I borrow your points in my discussions with DH about punishment??
Sure, I'm flattered!







BTW, my two-year-old just had another fit of hitting me this morning. First I ignored it, but he was really mad and kept going (he wanted leftover lo mein for lunch and I vetoed that for health reasons) So then I said gently, "DS2, that's not nice. Hey hey hey, are you okay?" and scooped him up and hugged him. Still angry, he leaned in to bite me and I said "Hey, are you going to bite me?" in a gentle way. He said "No" and his desire to hurt me was immediately gone and we cuddled. Now we are good again.
post #34 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shera971 View Post
If it is ok for your 2 yro to hit you, what do you do if he hits some one else? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just curious.
Same thing except skip the ignoring part. "Hey hey hey that's not nice"-- said gently-- then pick him up and cuddle him with an attitude of concern and compassion. "Are you okay?" I know when he feels loved he will act loving. Acting angry or punitive is a sure way to continue the violent behavior or escalate it.

This is for situations where he meant to hurt someone. In situations where he accidently hurts someone, I pick him up and comfort the other child if necessary/appropriate, and then tell him with a concerned expression "we've got to be gentle with people." And if it seems like he's not being very considerate of others in general we spend some time reconnecting (recentering him). Otherwise I let him go back to playing.
post #35 of 129
see, i'm totally different. i expect my son to act like a child. he is. my husband and i are almost 40 though. we don't name-call or disrespect each other....and we certainly have had enough time to learn to use "gentle touch", lol. we have bad days of course...we aren't perfect. but we both know how to be reasonable, accept responsibility, talk it out, apologize, etc. my son is still learning so much of this. he's been on the planet a much shorter time, yk? these skills need to be modeled & he still needs redirection and a safe place to learn how to communicate. therefore, what i tolerate from my son is much different than what i would tolerate from my husband....or especially a houseguest...ha ha.

i mean, i'm not their mama... i don't have to put up with disrespect and abuse, ykwim?
post #36 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
Same thing except skip the ignoring part. "Hey hey hey that's not nice"-- said gently-- then pick him up and cuddle him with an attitude of concern and compassion. "Are you okay?" I know when he feels loved he will act loving. Acting angry or punitive is a sure way to continue the violent behavior or escalate it..
Nice approach, especially the "he feels loved, he will act loving".

Just wondering why it ok if he hits you?
post #37 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shera971 View Post
Nice approach, especially the "he feels loved, he will act loving".

Just wondering why it ok if he hits you?
As long as he's not hurting me (and usually it doesn't really hurt), then I don't mind it. At this age, that is. If my four-year-old hit me (not that he ever does but hypothetically) I would tell him that that hurts my feelings, blah blah blah, you know, and then go through the same rebonding process of drawing him closer, but I know it's age-appropriate behavior for a two-year-old and I expect him to grow out of it in a normal fashion even without any "training" on my part. So, no big deal, to me.
post #38 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
see, i'm totally different. i expect my son to act like a child. he is.
Right, same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
my husband and i are almost 40 though. we don't name-call or disrespect each other....and we certainly have had enough time to learn to use "gentle touch", lol. we have bad days of course...we aren't perfect. but we both know how to be reasonable, accept responsibility, talk it out, apologize, etc.
My husband has ADD and a competitive personality that he's still learning to control, but that helps him excel at work-- and he's still in his 20s-- so I have to be patient with him still. I'm sure he'll be quite mellow and self-disciplined by the time he's 40. If not, that's fine too-- but he has come a long way from when we were 18. It was only a few years ago that he would still call me names and refuse to apologize when he got mad. I was patient with it, and it payed off. I guess you could say I used gentle discipline techniques on him back then, too-- I just didn't know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
my son is still learning so much of this. he's been on the planet a much shorter time, yk? these skills need to be modeled & he still needs redirection and a safe place to learn how to communicate. therefore, what i tolerate from my son is much different than what i would tolerate from my husband....or especially a houseguest...ha ha.
Okay, I don't know, I guess, for me, I am very patient with guests and with my husband (or would be with my husband, not that I need to be) and not naturally as patient with my children-- it takes more effort for me to be patient with the children because I was raised in an environment where children were expected to be quite convenient to adults at all times-- therefore very little was tolerated from them But guests or adults could get away with anything. So if you're not coming from that place, that little mental "tool" may not work for you as it works for me. That's fine. The point of it all, in the end, is just to be considerate and thoughtful and give the benefit of the doubt. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
i mean, i'm not their mama... i don't have to put up with disrespect and abuse, ykwim?
For me, I would put up with disrespect and even some level of "abuse" (a very small level) if I felt that my marriage could be saved. With a houseguest, I tend to be pretty patient. Again, it's about giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to tolerate abuse from a houseguest, but in some cases I might work with someone who was showing me certain levels of disrespect. I guess I'm kind of nurturing to almost everyone I know, though--I tend to see myself as mothering almost everyone I come across. When I see people, I usually see the inner child first.

Anyway, I think we are mostly on the same page, just coming from different perspectives/backgrounds. I hope I understood you correctly.
post #39 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by LionTigerBear View Post
The point of it all, in the end, is just to be considerate and thoughtful and give the benefit of the doubt. That's all.
yep. we'll leave it at that. i totally agree!
post #40 of 129
My thoughts as a Christian about "submitting to authority".

* Everyone should submit to legitimate authority

* Christians need to strive for justice and peace in this world

*As a Christian, we need to use our powers of discernment to judge what is "legitimate" authority to which we should submit, and that authority which is tyrannical and unjust and must be resisted.

Or, as my mom once put it "the age old problem of how to be a Christian and turn the other cheek without being a doormat."

In my church every week during the intercessions, we pray for (among other things):

"All who govern and hold authority in the nations of the world, That there may be justice and peace in the world."

and

"Guide the people of this land, of all the nations, in the ways of justice and peace; that we may honor one another and serve the common good."

I see these (strive for justice and peace, serve the common good) as guide to the way I live my life, my relationships with others (including my husband and my kids). As a mother, I pray and work to let G-d act through me, so I can guide them in the ways of justice and peace and the common good- which sometimes means telling them "No, you can't do this", or "Yes, you must do that." I try to teach them to honor each other (and me and everyone they encounter).

That said, if I had to define things, I would say that I do GD, but not CL. I've experienced the diificulties of working in co-ops that were run by consensus with ADULTS, to not want to run my home that way when they were under the "age of reason".

However, as they grow older, children's powers of discernment grow. As they "put off childish things" there is less need for me or DH to "lay down the law" (you *must* brush your teeth!) because now at over the age of 10, they both understand why it is a a good and necessary and healthy thing for them to brush their teeth.

I talk w/ my kids about issues of authority and when we think it's right stand up to it, and when it is right not to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
I would like to have a discussion regarding a child's submission to authority. I have been thinking alot about what the Bible says about authority and thinking about how that fits with GD, unschooling, consentual living, etc.

Many mamas I know IRL and online do not expect their children to submit at all to authority. From a Christian point of view, how is that Biblical?

What is wrong with being under the authority of another?

Am I maybe missing something?

I do not know how to phrase what I am thinking, so I will leave it at that and be back when I can think more clearly :
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