Submission to authority (GD from a Biblical point of view) - Page 5

[thismama]

I do not think all misbehaviour is about not feeling loved. I do not think the solution to misbehaviour is always to worry about how I must have deeply failed my child in some intangible way and try try try to 'reconnect.' I think in loving relationships, people act like jerks sometimes or push other people to see how far they can go, and I think that as the parent/child relationship is the first prototype for intimacy it is natural for children to push against boundaries. I think reasserting these boundaries is a perfectly appropriate parental task, and where consequences are absorbed by the parent for the child's misbehaviour, I think it is good and important to translate those consequences back upon the child in a milder way.

That's really it.

[thismama]

I guess what bugs me about the no consequences ever GDers is: how passive woman prototype is it that when someone we are in relationship to acts badly, repeatedly and intentionally, we blame ourselves for not being loving enough, and we worry that if we assert our power in any way we will deeply and traumatically injure them? Yk? It's like a cliche, man! I know these are children, but the OP is describing some children outta control, and I personally *know* some children outta control whose parents are unable to be anything but passive about it in the name of GD.

Meanwhile, my very well behaved empathic 5 year old has been on the receiving end of aggressive behaviour that has not seen consequences beyond nagging and mumbled insincere apologies. These are not unloved children, nor are they children who IMO do not 'feel loved.' They are simply children looking for some boundaries, constantly seeking them and never finding them, while their behaviour becomes more and more out of the realm of acceptable.

I have seen this time again in real life and online and the answer always comes back from a particular GD sect: 'Blame yourself. Stay passive. Be more loving. Your child is wounded in a vague and mysterious way, that you will never find, but that you can always blame his/her behaviour on. And it's all your fault.'

Kwim? Gets old, man.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

I do not think all misbehaviour is about not feeling loved. <snip>

I think in loving relationships, people act like jerks sometimes or push other people to see how far they can go....

Yeah, I guess we just disagree about that.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

I guess what bugs me about the no consequences ever GDers is: how passive woman prototype is it that when someone we are in relationship to acts badly, repeatedly and intentionally, we blame ourselves for not being loving enough, and we worry that if we assert our power in any way we will deeply and traumatically injure them? Yk? It's like a cliche, man! I know these are children, but the OP is describing some children outta control, and I personally *know* some children outta control whose parents are unable to be anything but passive about it in the name of GD.

Meanwhile, my very well behaved empathic 5 year old has been on the receiving end of aggressive behaviour that has not seen consequences beyond nagging and mumbled insincere apologies. These are not unloved children, nor are they children who IMO do not 'feel loved.' They are simply children looking for some boundaries, constantly seeking them and never finding them, while their behaviour becomes more and more out of the realm of acceptable.

I have seen this time again in real life and online and the answer always comes back from a particular GD sect: 'Blame yourself. Stay passive. Be more loving. Your child is wounded in a vague and mysterious way, that you will never find, but that you can always blame his/her behaviour on. And it's all your fault.'

Kwim? Gets old, man.

I think when you are coming from a place of trying to be a disciple of Christ (who was both meek and powerful) and modeling that for your children, it really makes the perspective different.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

I think when you are coming from a place of trying to be a disciple of Christ (who was both meek and powerful) and modeling that for your children, it really makes the perspective different.

Maybe. But the hot chocolate example you gave? Like give 'em less but don't say anything about it? That's fine if you really *really* don't intend that as a punishment. But I think in relationships we do have an urge to have our voices heard, and that is good not bad, and relationships with our children are real. I think it would be very hard to not say anything about one's anger over negative behaviour, dish out less hot chocolate, and have that *truly* be coming from a 'Christlike' place. Otherwise it's just passive aggression, and that is not what we're aiming for. I think being honest with people, setting boundaries while respecting who they are and loving them, is very Christlike.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think it would be very hard to not say anything about one's anger over negative behaviour, dish out less hot chocolate, and have that *truly* be coming from a 'Christlike' place.

It is hard for me when I'm stressed-out because I revert back to my "old brain" and my childhood conditioning. But, as with any habit, it can be changed. Once you've made a habit of accepting and acknowledging your feelings to yourself, but not outloud to those who would be hurt by it, it is quite easy to:

1.) acknowledge your initial anger which stems from present situations which trigger old hurt 2.) understand that you are not actually being threatended by the current situation and 3.) the anger automatically dissipates and in nurturing your own inner hurt child, you develop a deep and compassionate place to nurture your child from.

I can do this easily when I'm feeling rested and calm, it's the end of the day and sleep-deprived and over-stimulated moments I'm working on.

Originally Posted by thismama

Otherwise it's just passive aggression, and that is not what we're aiming for. I think being honest with people, setting boundaries while respecting who they are and loving them, is very Christlike.

Not passive-aggressive at all. Not in my case. The key is to change my mindset from seeing them as "misbehaving" (which is such a vague label but they really weren't being "bad" is the point) to seeing them as just temporarily having a hard time being quiet and calm. So, in that case, what can I do to help them be calmer and quieter. Well, I can give them less sugar, for one thing!

[thismama]

I see what you are saying but I do think a lot of the 'no consequences, no anger, nothing but sunshine and roses or just remove yourself' GD does lead to encouragement of passive aggressive parenting. If we discourage assertiveness, discourage communication of genuine feelings, and blame the parent for vaguely not being loving enough, passive aggression is bound to happen IMO.

I *do* think that some behaviour leads to us actually being threatened in the moment; it is not always about 'healing our own inner child' at the expense of assertively addressing what is actually happening. Peace is threatened, feeling respected is threatened, joy is threatened, ability to go about our lives with our children is threatened. I think there is a place for examining our loving relationships with our children, and certainly there is a place for self examination, but there is also a place for saying, 'Enough' in the moment.

[chfriend]

I'm confused about the OP's needs and want to clarify. Is this about whether it is possible to conform CL-style GD with Christian scripture or about whether not imposing consequences is a good idea?

AngelBee, would you be willing to clarify your needs?

[thismama]

I thought she was basically saying, 'Not doing consequences, kids are outta control, this is not the 'fruits' I expected, is it not Biblical to demonstrate authority and give them some consequences?'

Not sure if I've got that right but that was my impression.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

...If we discourage assertiveness...

Just wanted to address this snippet (since we've pretty much concluded that we have some fundamental disagreements in some other areas ).

I do not discourage assertiveness. It's all about what we are asserting. If we are asserting our own personal boundaries, and asserting our right to express ourselves kindly and non-hurtfully, and asserting our right to protect ourselves and our loved ones, great. Asserting control over other people's persons and other people's business and space is, in most cases, not a good thing, and expecting other people to take care of you or bend to your will is not assertive, it's bossy/insecure/controlling/entitled/etc.

[thismama]

Do we not absorb some consequences for our children though? I think we absorb a lot! This gives license to exert some 'control' or at least make ourselves agents of lesser consequences in return. If my kid draws all over the wall in permanent marker, it is I who owes the damage deposit, not her. So is it not fair for me to impose a consequence? Say removal of said markers, forcing her to help me clean or repaint, possibly some chores to gain money to help pay the costs? These are all parent imposed consequences.

This is where CL loses me entirely.

[brightonwoman]

Originally Posted by thismama

If my children acted like wild animals at the grocery store, I would be very displeased to say the least. They do *need* to act appropriately in situations they are in, and I cannot and will not conform all situations to them so that they never meet up with this requirement in their childhoods.

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

I feel displeased when my children acted like that, too. But I do not expect them to act convenient to me or to be responsible for my comfort.

I agree that it's appropriate to set expectations--that's what I was trying to get at before. I *expect* my kids to be kind and get along and listen when I ask them to do something etc. Now it's true, I'm not surprised when sometimes they don't...everybody slips up sometimes. BUT I genuinely DO expect them to behave. Kids are sharp, and they will live up to what you expect of them. I try hard to have realistic (age-appropriate) expectations, but yes, I do have expectations. I have expectations of myself too--I know they have expectations of me. I think it falls right in step with mutual respect.

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

Being loved and feeling loved are two entirely different htings. One need that children have (which they require to feel loved) is having their parent/guide be confident and have some degree of certainty and firmness to them. If the parents are pushovers, the children feel insecure <snip>

Originally Posted by thismama

I do not think all misbehaviour is about not feeling loved. I do not think the solution to misbehaviour is always to worry about how I must have deeply failed my child in some intangible way and try try try to 'reconnect.'

I agree that kids (and adults!) need some consistency and reliability in order to feel secure. I do not think that loving them more (or helping them feel more loved) is the solution to everything though. Sure, sometimes they were acting out to get attention/love, but sometimes they act out to test the boundaries, or because they do not know the rules, or because they want to get something out of it, or because the 'bad' thing is just plain more fun.
Think about your own life--why do you act out? Seriously? Do you think kids are any different?!

Originally Posted by thismama

I think in loving relationships, people act like jerks sometimes or push other people to see how far they can go, and I think that as the parent/child relationship is the first prototype for intimacy it is natural for children to push against boundaries. I think reasserting these boundaries is a perfectly appropriate parental task, and where consequences are absorbed by the parent for the child's misbehaviour, I think it is good and important to translate those consequences back upon the child in a milder way.

Well, I don't think it's ever healthy/loving to act like a jerk or push someone to see how far they can go...
I do think boundaries get pushed (for reasons discussed above) and I think it's appropriate and important to reassert boundaries--in a kind and gentle and loving way. I think that whenever possible, the child should be allowed to 'take the fall' for his own actions, because that's part of life and learning.
If my kid threw a rock and broke a window, I would talk with him about being careful, then I would take him over to apologize, and I would help provide him with lots of ways to earn the money to pay for it. I wouldn't just pay for it for him though.

[bamamom]

Originally Posted by thismama

I gotta say too, I don't get the 'they aren't learning anything!' arugment. Sometimes they need to learn that it is not all about them and what they are getting out of everything, it is about being cooperative and part of a group of people, prioritizing someone else's needs or family needs over their own desires at that moment in time. Yk? It's like: Dude we need to get this done. Here is why. Now behave yourself so it can happen. Vs: Oh how are you feeeeeeeeeling as you dump the coffee beans all over the floor? Do you really *get* why not to do that? Or maybe there is something I'm not seeing why it's important to make this giant mess and risk people falling down and getting hurt?

Sometimes making them the centre of everything, never enforcing our own needs/agenda as the priority, can do much harm IMO.

:: BRAVO Thismama. The bolded drives me freaking nuts I'm really enjoying your posts today.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by brightonwoman

I *expect* my kids to be kind and get along and listen when I ask them to do something etc. Now it's true, I'm not surprised when sometimes they don't...everybody slips up sometimes. BUT I genuinely DO expect them to behave. Kids are sharp, and they will live up to what you expect of them. I try hard to have realistic (age-appropriate) expectations, but yes, I do have expectations. I have expectations of myself too--I know they have expectations of me. I think it falls right in step with mutual respect.

I agree with this. I guess the key is to have realistic expectations-- often I find that parents have "consistent" expectations which isn't fair, as children's abilities fluctuate based on how tired, hungry, over-stimulated, etc. they are. But when your expectations allow for those natural fluctuations in behavior, I agree, it is about mutual respect.

Originally Posted by brightonwoman

I do not think that loving them more (or helping them feel more loved) is the solution to everything though. Sure, sometimes they were acting out to get attention/love, but sometimes they act out to test the boundaries, or because they do not know the rules, or because they want to get something out of it, or because the 'bad' thing is just plain more fun.
Think about your own life--why do you act out? Seriously? Do you think kids are any different?!

When I feel securely loved and connected I do not act out. I do not feel irritated, I do not snap at people, I do not test boundaries or whatever other poor behavior I sometimes express when I'm feeling "off". All of the possible poor behaviors are natural expressions of insecurity-- of not feeling right, of not feeling connected. That is why God is so important and needs ot be center. When I stay centered on Him, I have no more desire to behave poorly. It's staying centered on Him and maintaining that knowledge of feeling loved and accepted and worthy that I need to practice. Feeling really loved and accepted and bonded to my husband also provides the same feeling of security, but I'm not feeling that bond 100% of the time. God is the only relationship that we can count on feeling accepted and loved all of the time, and so that is where our center and primary support needs to be.

And to be well-adjusted and emotionally resilient and responsible and so forth, children need to learn to hang onto that feeling of being centered and bonded, accepted and loved, too. We are their direct parallel through which they experience the love of God. We need to almost "be" God for them when they are young, because that's how they perceive and experience us, at least for the first half of their childhoods. It's not always "our fault" if the child is not feeling our love, or not feeling centered on our love, in the moment-- but it's not about who's fault it is-- that is really beside the point. The point is to help them feel it until it becomes habitual for them-- and that is the key to a strong sense of self-worth and confidence. Not necessarily confidence in oneself, but an internalized confidence in one's usefulness and desirability to one's parents, and thus to God (in the old brain these concepts and mixed and confused, one and the same,) is the basis for emotional resilience and stability throughout life.

So yes, I believe that any-- ANY and ALL-- poor behavior, or sin, stems from feeling insecure, i.e., not centered on our attachment to our supreme source of love. As parents it is our duty to help our children feel that love and center on that love.

[thismama]

I think that there is a dance of power in all relationships, and I think the parent/child relationship is no different. I think the key is balance, and I see an out of balance in some uber GD circles, where the kids really do run roughshod all over the parents. I do not think it is unhealthy that children test out this balance, and I think it is up to the parents to maintain it. I think we can do this *and* love our kids, we can do this *and* respect our kids, and our kids can experience that love and respect even as we assert our boundaries and guide them toward appropriate behaviour. I think imposing consequences and saying 'No' can be part of a loving and positive parent/child dynamic. I know it is in my own life, and I truly have seen some out of control children whose parents are afraid to assert themselves. And I think that is sad, I think they are good and loving parents, but in that way they are doing their children (and themselves) a disservice.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think that there is a dance of power in all relationships, and I think the parent/child relationship is no different.

My opinion: The only reason to desire power stems from a lack of feeling one's self-power (self-worth, Self). And the only reason for a lack of feeling self-power is insecurity. And the only reason for a feeling of insecurity is not feeling securely attached/bonded/loved/etc.

This is why the most truly POWERFUL people are the MEEKEST. They are humble, calm, and confident. They are emotionally honest, they are appropriately assertive, they are interdependent and cooperative with other loving people. They come from all walks of life and all religions. They are powerful because their calm and sense of purpose are unshakeable, and this emotional resilience resides in the fact that no matter what happens or goes on around them, it does not affect their sense of Self and their connection to the Divine and to Love. They have an uncanny ability to get what they want. They are charismatic. Many people love to be with them and try to please them, because being around them makes other loving people feel more secure. Other people who are quite insecure and bitter, hate to be around them, and resent them. But all of the meek-and-powerful people have one thing in common-- they feel centered on God's love and therefore secure in their self-worth. There is no "dance of power" in their relationships.

Originally Posted by thismama

I think the key is balance, and I see an out of balance in some uber GD circles, where the kids really do run roughshod all over the parents. I do not think it is unhealthy that children test out this balance, and I think it is up to the parents to maintain it.

I often see parents who want to be gentle and give their kids a better life, however the parents are insecure and off-center themselves. Because of this these parents are not very good guides or supports. The children will engage in a "dance for power"-- that is, act out and try to find the boundaries-- in these cases.

Most parents are at least somewhat insecure and at least sometimes off-center (like me ) so most children do sometimes misbehave and test boundaries and so forth.

Originally Posted by thismama

I think we can do this *and* love our kids, we can do this *and* respect our kids, and our kids can experience that love and respect even as we assert our boundaries and guide them toward appropriate behaviour. I think imposing consequences and saying 'No' can be part of a loving and positive parent/child dynamic. I know it is in my own life, and I truly have seen some out of control children whose parents are afraid to assert themselves. And I think that is sad, I think they are good and loving parents, but in that way they are doing their children (and themselves) a disservice.

Again, I think that appropriate natural and logical consequences, and letting our children know what appropriate limits are (including saying "no"), are an important part of guiding our children, that is, giving them the information and knowledge they need about the world they live in so that they can fulfill their innate desire to be good, productive, and helpful. But I believe that as long as our children are centered on our love, that desire to do good remains there, if we will only work with it and nurture it.

[transformed]

:

[thismama]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

My opinion: The only reason to desire power stems from a lack of feeling one's self-power (self-worth, Self). And the only reason for a lack of feeling self-power is insecurity. And the only reason for a feeling of insecurity is not feeling securely attached/bonded/loved/etc.

Nah, I disagree. I notice later you say 'dance FOR power.' Notice I said 'dance of power.' Different things. All mammals seem to have power dynamics in their relationships, I have studied wolves/dogs and horses, and power dances are present in those animals' dynamics. I think it is a natural part of being a mammal, not a sign of some deep psychological turmoil. As I said, balance is the key. I think we fear power and want to sometimes stick our fingers in our ears and say 'lalala' instead of acknowledging that power dynamics exist in all human relationships. A key to healthy relationships IMO is acknowledging that and seeking a respectful balance.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by thismama

Nah, I disagree. I notice later you say 'dance FOR power.' Notice I said 'dance of power.' Different things. All mammals seem to have power dynamics in their relationships, I have studied wolves/dogs and horses, and power dances are present in those animals' dynamics. I think it is a natural part of being a mammal, not a sign of some deep psychological turmoil.

And I think that this is one of the beautiful things that set us apart from animals.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

And I think that this is one of the beautiful things that set us apart from animals.

seriously? do you honestly see relationships that have *no* power balance in them? every single relationship i can think of has a power balance. it is often subtle but it is always, always present.