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post #141 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Yeah the bank example I find highly disturbing. We start to get into territory where people are prevented from living their lives because they are parents. I don't know about you but I don't have childcare at my beck and call so I can do things like go to the bank! That's nuts.
I'll say it again. The bank does not prevent children from entering the premise. It just as a rule isn't a kid friendly place to be. It's a bank.

If the bank disallowed children from entering, I'd agree that would be stupid and counterproductive. Most clients have families. I'm just trying to say that plenty of businesses don't have a setup that's geared towards kids, and there's nothing wrong with that.
post #142 of 288
omg I read what you said, thanks.

Could you read what I am saying? This idea that it's fine for businesses to prevent children, which many people have said, is a slippery slope. And it does begin to enter into 'discrimination on the basis of family status' territory.

The fact the bank is not 'set up for children' has no bearing on the conversation IMO, nobody is saying there should be bubbles and lollipops everywhere.
post #143 of 288
Yeah, I think vacation things like B&B's are fine, and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, you can find "kid-free" hotels/B&B's/Guest Houses all over the WORLD. Not just the bad ol' US as some people would like us to believe.


And I think that having a rule about "no kids in strip clubs" is a good idea...b/c again...some children need protection from their own parents lack of decent judgment. Same with violent movies at the theater. Some parents do not "get" it, and if a rule needs to be made that a small child shouldn't watch someone getting hacked to pieces, then I have no problem with that.

But obviously banks - while they may not be "fun" for kids - should never be a kid-free zone. I'm not even a fan of kid-free restaurants (and I"m not sure if they exist). We have taken DS to a fancy restauarant before and he was a really good and quiet boy, but if he got even a tiny bit disruptive we would not stay (again, you can't count on all parents to have this type of good judgment unfortunately)

I just find the B&B thing to be absolutely fine, though. Also, I think some resorts are no-kid places, and that is also fine.
post #144 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
This is the real issue. While our kids might be the center of our personal universe, it's extremely unrealistic to expect them to be the center of every one else's universe. A mother's idea of "fussing quietly" or "joyful squeals at play" are just irritating noises to those who are not the parent of that child, and are not wanted in a B&B, spa or other establishment where the ambience is meant to be quiet and relaxing.

I might add non-stop yacking and screeching of a teen and pre-teen to that list of noises. Can you tell they are getting on my nerves this snow-bound Saturday morning? Wish I was in a B&B in Vermont right now...
I think the difference here for some of us, is that I don't expect all the spaces in my accommodation to be "relaxing". If I'm eating breakfast with 10 other people, I'm going to expect some noise, regardless of the ages of said people. The only place I expect quiet is in my room. And again, I usually have more problems with adults than children. (why do people sleep with the TV on!)

And many spa's allow children if they are behaving appropriately. (The sextuplets on TLC's Jon and Kate Plus 8 just had pedicures. They are 4)
post #145 of 288
When I take my kids to the bank I am there with them for all of 5 minutes, some banks with long lines may keep you there longer I know. But not the whole weekend. When I am there without my kids I am not expecting peaceful surroundings and a sense of tranquility. I have one goal in mind, and one only, to do my business and get the heck out of there. I don't like banking, with or without kids, it's a pain in the ass even if I'm there to deposit money or some other positive thing. It's not comparable to a romantic weekend get away with my spouse.
post #146 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
I like "no kids" rules b/c it is clearcut. If a business were to say "no tantrums" (as an example) I can just imagine the headaches it would cause them.

B&B Owner: I'm sorry, m'aam. Your daughter is throwing a tantrum. That's against our rules. I'm going to have to ask you to leave.

Mother: That's not a tantrum! She's just a tiny bit upset! But I would NOT define that as a "tantrum."

B&B Owner: Well it seems to be a tantrum to me. And other guests have complained.

Mother: I am telling you this is NOT a tantrum. She threw a tantrum last week, and THAT was a tantrum. This is NOT a tantrum.

B&B Owner: *sigh* It's a tantrum. It really is.

Mother: Well I'm going to sue you b/c this is not a tantrum.


It just makes no logical sense. What YOU as a parent (general you obviously) may feel is fine and dandy behavior, may not in reality be fine behavior to a B&B owner.

That's why the No Kids thing makes so much sense. No. Kids. It's easy.
Mom: It's not a tantrum - She's just "expressing her negative emotions". My child is ALLOWED to express her emotions wherever she wants. What are you, some kind of child hater?
post #147 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
omg I read what you said, thanks.

Could you read what I am saying? This idea that it's fine for businesses to prevent children, which many people have said, is a slippery slope. And it does begin to enter into 'discrimination on the basis of family status' territory.

The fact the bank is not 'set up for children' has no bearing on the conversation IMO, nobody is saying there should be bubbles and lollipops everywhere.
Then why do you find the bank example "disturbing?" I'm trying to say that we have businesses all around us that cater to adults, and it's not actually a problem.

And in this country at least, businesses more often than not cater to families. Why? Because the majority of adults with money also have families. So there are more family restaurants, vacation destinations, etc. A few businesses find a niche market in being kid-free. I don't see how the vast majority of people will be discriminated against in favor of the very few people who don't want to be around kids. That would be totally bad for business. Most restaurants, for example, do have a kids menu. Why? Cause they actually want family business. A few restaurants make a profit by serving very expensive food and having a very adult atmosphere. I don't see how one is better than the other.
post #148 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
This is the real issue. While our kids might be the center of our personal universe, it's extremely unrealistic to expect them to be the center of every one else's universe. A mother's idea of "fussing quietly" or "joyful squeals at play" are just irritating noises to those who are not the parent of that child, and are not wanted in a B&B, spa or other establishment where the ambience is meant to be quiet and relaxing.

I might add non-stop yacking and screeching of a teen and pre-teen to that list of noises. Can you tell they are getting on my nerves this snow-bound Saturday morning? Wish I was in a B&B in Vermont right now...
I am asked frequently- by parents- how I can stand being in the class room all day long with 29 little kids. To me it's fun. I like my job. (Yes, there are very annoying bits). But it's true that even light noise from a kid can be irritating to others. Sad, but true.
post #149 of 288
I think we are talking past each other.

I dont care if places don't hand out bubblegum to kids.

I do not think banks, or most types of stores and services really, should be permitted to exclude children. B&Bs are an exception to this, but I am not comfortable with just 'letting the free market decide.' It is discrimination, that really can't be argued IMO, and perhaps it is acceptable in certain circumstances. But those circumstances should be greatly limited, by law.
post #150 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
Mom: It's not a tantrum - She's just "expressing her negative emotions". My child is ALLOWED to express her emotions wherever she wants. What are you, some kind of child hater?
post #151 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think we are talking past each other.

I dont care if places don't hand out bubblegum to kids.

I do not think banks, or most types of stores and services really, should be permitted to exclude children. B&Bs are an exception to this, but I am not comfortable with just 'letting the free market decide.' It is discrimination, that really can't be argued IMO, and perhaps it is acceptable in certain circumstances. But those circumstances should be greatly limited, by law.
Who is saying they should?

How is it discrimination? Adults who are paying have the right to enter a business, but it's a private business and can therefore require only adults to enter. That's fine. And the free market actually works in favor of families. Look up the restaurants in your phone book. Most of them will be designed to be very kid friendly. Who is getting hurt by the one or two places that aren't?
post #152 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmeyrick View Post
Who is saying they should?

How is it discrimination? Adults who are paying have the right to enter a business, but it's a private business and can therefore require only adults to enter. That's fine. And the free market actually works in favor of families. Look up the restaurants in your phone book. Most of them will be designed to be very kid friendly. Who is getting hurt by the one or two places that aren't?
Well, it seems you are saying they should, in the second paragraph of this post. ??

It is age discrimination, and it is discrimination against parents on the basis of family status. The free market does not get to decide human rights, I dont care if it's currently in favour of families or not. Private businesses serving the public are public places, ask me how I know (I recently was harassed for nursing in a restaurant, I was protected by human rights).

As I said, I don't care about one or two fancy restaurants. I don't care about B&Bs. But beyond that yeah, I start to care.

I live in a university town, and I don't enjoy frat boys. Their whoop whoops of camaraderie and their overloud engines do not delight me. But can I keep them out of restaurants/banks/grocery stores? No. Until that day comes, nobody should be able to keep children out either.
post #153 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Well, it seems you are saying they should, in the second paragraph of this post. ??

It is age discrimination, and it is discrimination against parents on the basis of family status. The free market does not get to decide human rights, I dont care if it's currently in favour of families or not. Private businesses serving the public are public places, ask me how I know (I recently was harassed for nursing in a restaurant, I was protected by human rights).

As I said, I don't care about one or two fancy restaurants. I don't care about B&Bs. But beyond that yeah, I start to care.

I live in a university town, and I don't enjoy frat boys. Their whoop whoops of camaraderie and their overloud engines do not delight me. But can I keep them out of restaurants/banks/grocery stores? No. Until that day comes, nobody should be able to keep children out either.
No one is saying that anyone should be kept out of banks and grocery stores. We're talking about restaurants and B&Bs, places that cater to a particular audience. Places of leisure. Some pricey boutiques with fine china maybe. The bank was just a plain, everyday example of a place that's boring for a child to be, yet isn't discriminatory because it is marketed to adults. The bank thing has been totally taken out of context.

Obviously, anyone can go to a grocery store. But some businesses have a very different purpose than to serve the community at large.
post #154 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmeyrick View Post
We're talking about restaurants and B&Bs, places that cater to a particular audience. Places of leisure. Some pricey boutiques with fine china maybe.
Those places as childfree are fine with me.

But it does need to be limited, legally, not simply by the market, IMO.
post #155 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Those places as childfree are fine with me.

But it does need to be limited, legally, not simply by the market, IMO.
It probably already is. I know grocery stores are required to be accessible to the disabled.
post #156 of 288
I recently had a situation where my infant was in hospital for three days, and the nursing staff attempted to prevent my 5 year old from staying overnight with us (or alternatively pressured me to leave my infant! Over my dead body!). I called age discrimination and cited the Family Centred Policy of the hospital. My 5 year old has anxiety anyway, and I am a single mother so had she not stayed, she would have been in a different bed in a different house which would have been very hard for her during an already upsetting situation. She was perfectly behaved, and stayed in our room the entire time, got dropped off at bedtime and picked up in the mornings. But the drama and hostility I dealt with was unreal. It was like she was not really a person, that her needs did not matter, that she must be a vector of germs because she is a child. The whole thing was quite horrible and I did feel that she was dehumanized and that we experienced unfair treatment.
post #157 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen View Post
I think it's fair to say "No children" only because I don't know even a single child that can go 24-48 hours without any disturbance/outburst (happy or upset). IMO, it's much better business (and practical) for the B&B just to state what they mean, and not let people show up thinking their kids are welcome or won't act up (and then do) and forfeit their money. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have that kinda $$.
I just checked your sig, and your child is not quite four.. which I think may be part of the reason you would say this. I do think this is probably true of most 3 year olds, sure, but our prime B & B years were when Rain was 6-8, and she certainly could go days without an outburst then. Honestly, B&Bs were like a dream come true for her... sort of like a real-life Playmobil Victorian House experience. So, yeah, we would have much preferred that B&B owners spell out their expectations and let us decide if they fit...

The only thing that was close to a problem was when the guy served fruit soup for breakfast and she didn't like it, and he kind of pushed it, in a jokey sort of way, but still... it was uncomfortable. Never mind that I also wasn't eating the fruit soup...

Now we're dealing with our local mall, which kicks out unaccompanied teens who are under 17 at 3 pm Fridays and Saturdays... Rainy and a friend (the daughter of an MDC member, too) were shopping there a couple of weeks ago and got kicked out, and it was really upsetting... they were there buying Christmas gifts, with money they earned themselves, and they were 15 and 16... I think it bites.

Dar
post #158 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

Now we're dealing with our local mall, which kicks out unaccompanied teens who are under 17 at 3 pm Fridays and Saturdays... Rainy and a friend (the daughter of an MDC member, too) were shopping there a couple of weeks ago and got kicked out, and it was really upsetting... they were there buying Christmas gifts, with money they earned themselves, and they were 15 and 16... I think it bites.

Dar
Yes I think that is really wrong as well.

We had an incident this week in Ten Thousand Villages, my 5 year old was touching the musical instruments and I was not lording over her. She was picking out a maraka for her dad, and she is a very careful child. A worker was very passive aggressive with us and said in a fake singsongy voice, 'Children unsupervised with the instruments... You break it you buy it.' I said to her, 'Oh, you are rude.' We left and bought our maraka at another store up the street.

You don't get to treat children like crap just because they are of a certain age. I get that children are often xyz, but there is also the thing about looking at what is happening in front of you, don't treat someone as less than human simply because they are a child. My daughter was very upset, and kept telling me that she was being careful, really took it on as her responsibility somehow. I told her of course she was, the woman was rude, some people don't treat kids properly.

So crappy man.
post #159 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shonahsmom View Post
Okay people. Seriously, one last time not allowing children in certain environments =/= racism. And the insistence that it is is patently offensive.
That's not what I meant by my post, sorry if it came across that way. I meant it to be more abstract...

Fact: B&B's are usually businesses held in people's private homes.

Fact: We have the legal right to say who does and does not enter our homes.

So, yes, they have every right not to welcome children into their homes. But each individual also has the right to exclude ANYONE from their homes-- blacks, jews, the elderly, men with facial hair, redheads, whatever.

My question is more of a philosophical one, I guess: Where do we draw the line when it comes to what is considered discrimination, and how do we decide when, where, and what type of discrimination is acceptable?

I apologize again if my post came across as condoning racial or religious discrimination, that was not my intention.
post #160 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by frontierpsych View Post
My question is more of a philosophical one, I guess: Where do we draw the line when it comes to what is considered discrimination, and how do we decide when, where, and what type of discrimination is acceptable?
Didn't come across that way. I agree 100%. This is not even close to being like racial discrimination.
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