Help... Once again a mom working through ds playing Kill, guns, Bad Guys Etc.

[jaidymama]

Ok, so maybe I just need to take the intro to being a mom of boys class a few more times before I actually understand or accept that pretending to shoot or kill is a fun game. Of course, I have read books... with words ... and have heard that they are exploring, that they are interested in it. Yet, I continue to think back to the idea that if killing someone is wrong then why would it be ok to pretend to do it?

Actually, what I have observed, of the boys who I know well, the ones who have watched mainstream movies play bad guy/good guy, killing, shooting, etc. The ones who do not watch movies and cartoons do not (like my ds and a couple of his friends). So that really erodes away the theory that boys are going to make anything into a gun... I guess I'm saying that a child would have to get the idea somewhere... it's not automatically set in their brain like learning how to walk.

One friend in particular is turning 6 and his family makes different media choices than we do. And with those choices, my son is hearing about things I have decided to hold off on. Beyond that they are constantly playing bad guy/good guy, and they're killing the bad guy, and yelling I'm going to kill you. I'm really not comfortable with that, and something in my gut tells me it isn't right. So if I'm supposed to trust my instinct, then why is there so much support for essentially letting boys be boys. I set boundaries for safety with how my ds plays, why would it be a bad thing to set a boundary about gun play or killing play? What would happen if he used his imagination to explore other interests instead.

Anyways, if there's anyone who wants to chime in, yet again, about this topic please do so. I would love to hear from families who have made many different choices about this. And what about me? Am I supposed to take a giant sized chill pill until he's much older. What is my role here as his mom. What and how can I teach him.

[eirual]

DS is much the same, it seems you can't deny it especially once they're exposed to other children's ideas and games. So assuming DS will be playing 'guns', it's not necessarily the guns that are the problem, it's how they are being 'used'. Even when DS is pretending that his english muffin is a gun, it never gets pointed at a person, EVER (well, at least not without a reminder that we never point guns at people). Guns are for hunting. And we only kill animals we are going to eat and use.

DS was playing in the basement with his 2 other male cousins, they grabbed toy guns and started shooting at eachother, DS grabbed one and started doing his "cool moves" towards the wall and a chair. It's going to happen (and it took me a while to accept that) so we may as well give them the boundaries and guidance to use them 'properly'.

[the_lissa]

I don't agree that gun or kill play is inevitable with boys. My brothers never did. My male classmates never did. My daughter's male classmates don't. My son does not. How would they even know what guns or killing is at this age (2 and 4)?

[eirual]

I think other kids and the media have a lot to do with it. And I don't think they necessarily understand it either. DS is friends with another little boy and they got to saying "let's kill so and so!" I asked them what that meant since surely they didn't mean they were literally going to kill anyone and they said "It means we're going to hug him" or "we're going to do... (some other random action that has nothing to do with killing to him)". I let them know that that's not a very nice thing to say, and instead, let's just say "let's hug so and so" and they were fine with that.

Oh, and with the classmates thing- I think that depends a lot on who their classmates are. I'm a teacher and in one class especially, I have caught quite a few boys at one point or another pretending to be playing with guns (and this is Grade 4!). I have zero tolerance for that, especially because it's usually aimed towards someone. These are usually the same boys who go home and play Halo-3 with their parents' okay! It only takes being around one person who finds it acceptable and it seems to spread like wildfire.

The lissa, is there something you feel you do or have experienced differently that lead to an avoidance of this kind of play?

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by jaidymama

Yet, I continue to think back to the idea that if killing someone is wrong then why would it be ok to pretend to do it?

I think it's okay to pretend to do anything, even things that it would be wrong to do for real. I'd worry if my kids only wanted to act mean or bad in their games, but it would seem strange if they never wanted to. And the thing is, the message that fighting and killing are sometimes right is everywhere in our society. In Star Wars, Peter Pan, the Chronicles of Narnia, the Lord of the Rings, the Bible, superhero comic books, history books. (How often have you seen the Revolutionary War presented as anything other than good in a book for kids?) If you don't want your kids to be exposed to those books and movies, I can understand that, but it would seem strange to me for a parent to expose a kid to those ideas and then forbid the kid to act them out in imaginary play. I don't really get limiting the way pretend guns are used, either - saying they can't be aimed at people or animals. There are some pretend games that will only work if kids can actually pretend to shoot each other, and I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to play those games if they want. I think you can let kids aim pretend guns at people and still teach them never to do it with a real gun, just like you can let them crash their toy cars and trains and still teach them how to drive a real car safely someday.

[JamieCatheryn]

My son is 2, going on 3 before long. He picked up the making guns with Duplos and "shooting" at other kids from friends, but only does it with this one Duplo set at church. To him, since others modeled it, that's just what you do with that particular toy. My issue is that guns are so detached, especially ones with no projectiles, it's hard to make them understand that's a pretend hurting, and the definition of killing or death is the farthest thing from their minds until somewhere around 8-12, from what I saw in friends growing up. I'll generally let him play with toy guns that fire suction cup darts to play target practice, not to shoot at people.

To have a more direct outlet for active, fighting skill play, we like boffer swords. My husband is a squire in medieval re-enactment, he swordfights with unpadded rattan sticks in armor. DS is exposed to it and I find it positive. They have strict rules of respect and safety so as not to actually cause injury and to keep things friendly. You break the rules you loose honor among everybody there and Really break them you loose the chance to keep playing. For children, it's the same way but with safer weapons and closer oversight.

The advantage of swords I see is it's more physically direct and actually has the potential to hurt a bit if rules are broken. It's so hard to mentally process pulling a trigger and causing pain, when guns first came about even adults had trouble getting it. With strict rules, swordfighting teaches co-ordination, respect, and self control. You don't hit in anger or fight someone who doesn't want to or isn't armed and ready. You don't hit areas that aren't allowed or hit too hard. You can pretend your opponent is your enemy, but you still must show respect and fight fair. The SCA, where we got the rules and weapons construction inspiration from, officially starts children's combat at age 5. We just loosely use the rules for kids 5-9 with our 2 year old and if he wants to fight the other kids there after 5 in official stuff he can.

For fun we also play a target practice version of this too, either going around the house calling things dragons and hitting them, or with a "pell", some sort of punching bag or padded pole. I'm of the opinion that a simplistic fairy tale version of good and evil fits best for young kids, and the trend of explaining motives and recognizing the big bad wolf isn't all that bad or whatever takes something away. Complexities like that can come later.

[MommyMichele]

Originally Posted by Daffodil

I think you can let kids aim pretend guns at people and still teach them never to do it with a real gun, just like you can let them crash their toy cars and trains and still teach them how to drive a real car safely someday.

This was a very helpful point for me as I embark on my parenting-a-son journey. Thanks.

[Jenelle]

Originally Posted by eirual

Even when DS is pretending that his english muffin is a gun, it never gets pointed at a person, EVER (well, at least not without a reminder that we never point guns at people).

I could have written this part, word for word. It was, in fact, when my children starting making "guns" out of their toast, that I stood in my kitchen and realized that it does not matter whether I let them have toy guns or not, they are going to make guns out of whatever they can, whenever they want to. You cannot control someone's imagination. I have no more control over what they want to "pretend" to do, than I do over whether they wet the bed at night. I cannot be there every second of the day, standing over them as they play in their room. I cannot control their thoughts!

We are not a "video game" family. We have the original Playstation that my husband and I bought in 1998. And about two or three (non-violent) games that are occasionally played on it. Our children have not seen Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, we do not sit around and watch TV, let alone when our children are awake, so they aren't watching any adult TV or movies. We do not watch the news. Ever. We aren't a hunting family either.

Yes, they have obviously picked up these ideas somewhere along the line... But I have also had to reluctantly accept that to an extent this is a "male" thing. Testosterone? Deeply ingrained survival instinct? I don't know. I can tell you that ds1 is not nearly as "into" it as ds2 is, so it's not like little brother learned it from big brother. It is almost as if ds2 came out shooting. Where does that come from? I'm not sure.

But what I do know, is that I am not going to have a power struggle with them over it for the rest of my life. It is easy as a new parent, or as a parent of one, to say "I won't do that", etc. But when you are parenting multiple children, with very different personalities, and they are influencing each other... Yes, I have reluctantly come to accept that this may just be an important part of their "malehood" -- and I am not going to spend my life trying to squash it. Also, the more you make a big deal out of something, often the more intriguing it is to them.

Good luck, mama. I am not telling you what to do, or anyone else who is reading this, I am just sharing my experience as the mom of three boys. It is a journey, and I find myself saying things that I never would have said 5 years ago!

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by eirual

The lissa, is there something you feel you do or have experienced differently that lead to an avoidance of this kind of play?

No because it isn't just my kids, it was my brothers, my classmates, my daughter's classmates. And I don't even know how my kids would even know what a gun is at their age. I thought it was a regional thing, but I see you are in Ontario too, so I don't know.

[Jenelle]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

my classmates, my daughter's classmates.

Just a thought. Kids behave differently at school than they do at home. Just because you haven't specifically seen any of these children pretending to shoot things, doesn't mean that they NEVER do. I doubt that my oldest is going around shooting things in his classroom. But when he is wrapped up in imaginative play at home with his brothers for hours on end, this is where he is most comfortable, and this is where these things are played out.

For you to say that your classmates NEVER did, and that your daughter's classmates NEVER do... I just don't believe you can make that statement.

Another thought, is that probably the first place my sons were exposed to a gun would be that their uncle, who they love, is a police officer. I had made such a point about guns killing people, that I would overhear my 3-year-old making comments while playing, about police officers being "bad guys". Of course I had to set that straight, because he somehow had it in his head that anyone who used a gun was a "bad guy".

Ugh... This just isn't a black-and-white issue. There are many shades of gray. We teach them that police officers and "army men" help protect us, help keep us safe, but yet at the same time want to make a blanket statement that guns are wrong? I don't like to see them pretending to shoot... but at the same time, I would shoot someone in a heartbeat to protect them from imminent harm.

[the_lissa]

Well I can't speak for what my classmates did away from school, but I know that my daughter's classmates do not do gun play at home because her class has a messageboard and we talk about all kinds of things. Guns have not yet come up. I'm not saying they never will.My point is I don't think gun play is inevitable, and I have countless examples to show that it isn't.

[Ak Mom]

Originally Posted by eirual

it's not necessarily the guns that are the problem, it's how they are being 'used'. Even when DS is pretending that his english muffin is a gun, it never gets pointed at a person, EVER (well, at least not without a reminder that we never point guns at people). Guns are for hunting. And we only kill animals we are going to eat and use.

This is the rule in our house. Guns are for hunting animals we eat and use or for target practice. I know at our preschool the other rule is no guns at school.

I think the other thing that is good to talk about with guns is gun safety. I think this emphasizes the difference between pretend and real life. We live in a state where pretty much everyone has a gun in the home so we talk a lot about what to do if you find a gun. Stop, hands off, go tell an adult.

[dawncayden]

Ds has 3 foam swords and a bow and arrow. He got the idea from watching Robin Hood. He was starting to turn his wooden and hard plastic toys into swords and I was finding it was dangerous, so we bought him some foam ones. We have rules with this equipment. Getting the imaginary 'bad guy' is encouraged. If you want to play with someone they need a sword too. If ds hits someone with a sword that doesn't have one, he gets a warning, and the second time the sword is put away.
The bow and arrow is most often played with without the foam darts, but he isn't allowed to point it at anyone. He points it at imaginary things and 'targets' he creates.
He doesn't have a toy gun. His little buddy was gifted one so has one at his house. So that is how ds was introduced to guns. When we go to his friends house he is allowed to play with the gun, but there are rules around that too. He can't point it at anyone. If they had more then one gun and both kids had one, I'd be more okay with pointing it at each other since they are both playing.

[Alyantavid]

My boys both do this. And they're extremely sheltered in the way of movies/tv that they see. We do hunt and we have guns so they're exposed to the whole idea. We do not have toy guns in our house, but if they make a gun out of Lincoln Logs, the only rule is not to point it at people. We use this kind of play for educational purposes too. Its a great platform for gun safety, hunting issues, etc.

I think trying to force any type of control on pretend play is just bizarre. I can't even control all the thoughts in my own mind, how would I do that with my kids. I do think that the more forbidden things are to kids, the more they want to do it. I've seen that with my own kids in all types of different ways, not just guns/shooting.

Actually, what I have observed, of the boys who I know well, the ones who have watched mainstream movies play bad guy/good guy, killing, shooting, etc. The ones who do not watch movies and cartoons do not (like my ds and a couple of his friends). So that really erodes away the theory that boys are going to make anything into a gun... I guess I'm saying that a child would have to get the idea somewhere... it's not automatically set in their brain like learning how to walk.

I don't think its set a boy's brain to shoot or make guns out of things. I do think once they get ahold of that idea, it holds more interest for boys than girls. Obviously not always.

These are usually the same boys who go home and play Halo-3 with their parents' okay!

That's a pretty good generalization. As I said, our boys are very sheltered in what they're exposed to. I know lots of kids who's parents let them watch anything and everything and have no interest in guns or shooting. So I wouldn't totally blame media exposure.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by Alyantavid

I know lots of kids who's parents let them watch anything and everything and have no interest in guns or shooting. So I wouldn't totally blame media exposure.

That's been my experience too. I knew some kids who were not exposed to media, yet were obsessed with guns and killing. Though they may have picked it up from Montessori school

[Periwinkle]

My boys don't watch ANYTHING violent on TV. In fact, they barely watch at all and when they do, Little Bear is about as exciting as it gets. No video games or computer games EVER. No violent books, characters, you name it.

And yet... they play guns. They play brave knights fending off the dragon. They put on their bathrobes with their nice braided belts, put the toilet plunger over their shoulders and go off looking to see if they find "a bear to hunt to make it through the long winter". They play guns with their grilled cheese crusts.

And actually, the whole thing has brought up a huge amount of opportunities to talk about things like how we treat animals and animal suffering, why people hunt (or should), war, killing unjustly vs. justly, etc. Good stuff... good values lessons actually. Took us all by surprise but we're rolling with it and so far I've been pleased at their willingness to incorporate new lessons into their play a la "make sure to get the caribou between the eyes so it dies a quick and painless death".

[lizabird]

We don't watch TV and DS (5 yrs old) has seen precious few movies portraying any sort of violence (FWIW, we just watched the movie "Castle in the sky" which is chock-a-block FULL of gun violence. OMG, I couldn't believe it, the last 2 movies we watched by the same director were such sweet stories!). Anyway, even before that movie mishap, ds has seen other kids at the playground with sticks for guns. He immediately thought this was a fun thing to do. So many times when he feels inspired to pick a stick up off the ground, he'll call it a gun. Funny the stick never ever becomes anything else, always a gun. When I tell him it makes me uncomfortable for him to play with a stick gun, he says "but it's just pretend, it's not a real gun."... even though he calls it a gun, aims it at things and says "BANG!"

Generally he has no interest at all in weapons, play violence, etc., but he likes to pick up sticks and call them guns.

I made a post here a couple of years ago now about boys, sticks, and the word "Bang!". I guess after reading all the posts about how normal it is for boys to explore this, I am coming to peace with the idea that if he can play and explore and role play with a stick on the playground, he will be less likely to do so with a real gun. In light of the play stick gun, it does bring up the opportunity to talk about real guns.

[mamadebug]

Originally Posted by jaidymama

Actually, what I have observed, of the boys who I know well, the ones who have watched mainstream movies play bad guy/good guy, killing, shooting, etc. The ones who do not watch movies and cartoons do not (like my ds and a couple of his friends). So that really erodes away the theory that boys are going to make anything into a gun... I guess I'm saying that a child would have to get the idea somewhere... it's not automatically set in their brain like learning how to walk.

I would have thought this - until I had my son.

My DH and I are anti-gun, DS doesn't watch movies, doesn't have books with violence, the TV shows he watches are Frances or Max and Ruby (totally benign with no violence), doesn't have older siblings or friends who could have introduced the concept, and his main play group for his first three years was three girls his age who also don't watch TV, have guns, etc. We also don't live in an area where guns are a part of the culture (hunting, etc). And yet, to my horror, my son started playing with sticks that were "shooters". He explained that things could "shoot" out of his stick and he would make the shooting sound, etc. He didn't know the word gun, and didn't even know there was such a thing as a gun. Sometimes the "shooters" shot water to water flowers or chocolate to eat, but it was the beginning of gun play for him. There did come a time, after quite a while of this, that we were visiting out of town friends and their kids had toy guns. We only spent one afternoon with them, but it was when he started attaching the word "gun" to his "shooters". So, although he didn't initially have any knowledge of guns, he basically came up with gun play on his own.

I think it is really important to remember that when they play guns and shooting, they don't really have a concept of what that could mean in reality. My DS, and I would guess most little ones, don't get that shooting someone could kill them, what it means to be dead, that shooting someone with a gun potentially has a permanent outcome. So, while it is uncomfortable to hear our kids talk this way and play this way, it doesn't have the same meaning as if an adult was saying it. It is fun for them because they are playing with ideas of power, right and wrong, etc, not death and killing (in a way that we as adults know what it means). I also think it is fine to put boundaries on it - like not ever pointing the "gun" at a person or pretending to shoot people.

I sympathize with you. I feel really uncomfortable when my son plays guns - which is all the time. I think they are often working things out in their play, and it is important to let them do that as long as no one is hurt or intimidated - basically, all kids are OK with the gun game. I also know a lot of men who played guns as kids, and have grown up to be anti-gun adults. We had a funny experience surrounding this just this week. We went to see The Nutcracker at the SF Ballet. It was a beautiful production, a real treat for us and my son was really into it. He loved the story, watching the dancers, the costumes, etc. But, as he sat on my lap, riveted to the performance, he very quietly used his fingers to "shoot" the dancers as they came on stage! It was this odd mix of ballet, the arts, Christmas festivities - and guns!!!

[jaidymama]

I have to say we've all had different observations. Of the friends my ds has the ones who have seen media with guns/killing, those are literally the ones who are playing guns and killing. The friends who have not seen these things do not play that way. That's just my experience from within our group of 20 boys. This is obviously not a statistical observation, only one that I have made.

I view guns as a tool, and therefore limit any kind of playing with them or the idea of using them to kill one another. I think adults find the ethics surrounding killing very confusing so I doubt that a 4 yo is going to figure it out.


I have searched and read many discussions on MDC about ways of playing with weapons, I guess I'm looking for a slightly different discussion here.

After the dust has settled in my world, I'm left wondering where the boundary is for children who insists on killing the bad guys, since that is the major focus... there is little change in the play whether it's dinosaurs or cars or knights, it's all about killing. The one boy says he's interested in it, and that coincides with the sudden immersion into all things superhero and movies. So with it, I can see that if playing is his way of working things out that he has a ton of working out to do. Since I've known this one boy we've dealt with a limited focus of play. I have tried to introduce the idea of a doctor or mechanic as part of the play, but the essence of destruction seems to be where he finds the most fun. My own son is not typically interested in this, and only plays it when he's with this one boy. So while I cringe at being accused of "sheltering" my son when I believe that there is so much being forced into early childhood that could definitely wait until they are older.

Consider this... Our local YWCA is running a campaign against racism (I know they are doing this elsewhere), they are illustrating that saying things like "that's so gay" and other ethnic slurs propetuates those ideas. In my mind, if we're working toward a more peaceful planet, more peaceful solutions... wouldn't we encourage peaceful play?

I recognize that I cannot control my child's imagination, but what is the harm in limiting pretend killing... I have boundaries about not hurting one another or teasing... so why would this boundary be different?

[boatbaby]

I have SOOOO much to share and ask about on this topic... but I don't have the time right now.

But I wanted to say DS has been TV free (with the occasional CAREFULLY screened DVD on the computer) his whole life and he totally plays these games. He definitely got the initial idea from other kids who have older siblings. But the idea was like cocaine for him and he flocks like a moth to a flame every time the opportunity to "play fight" with whatever weapon arises.

I hate it and struggle with it every day.

more later.