DS ruined santa for another family :( - Page 4

[runes]

CathMac, you are perfectly illustrating my previous point. It is NOT the responsibility of non-believers to perpetuate the myth. Why should we have to compromise our family's beliefs (or non-beliefs, in this instance) and teach our children the very inconsistent message that it's not ok to lie, EXCEPT for the instance of Santa in which case it's ok, for fear of crossing our friends and their parents so that they don't get "seriously miffed" at us? Don't you see that however much you may justify the beauty and magic of the Santa tradition, that you are being intolerant of those who don't do so? Do you make the distinction between those of us who don't believe due to a conscientious decision, vs. others who don't believe because Santa is not part of their culture or religion? Would it have been "rude" of the op and her son in the same scenario, but instead of being non-believers, they practiced Hinduism or Judaism, or if they were from Japan or Africa?

Is the outrage a product of Santa-believing, Christian American privilege?

It's obviously difficult enough to navigate this challenging situation as adults...thus the op's post. But putting the onus on children to make these nuanced distinctions is not appropriate. How about everyone is allowed to believe what they believe and speak their truth and it's up to us as parents to assist our kids to maintain their convictions and beliefs, whatever they may be.

What I'm reading here is that there is very little tolerance for non-Santa believers, and it's even MORE contentious than religious beliefs. It seems that it's ok to have this kind of intolerance in the name of tradition, but not in the name of religion, and it's seriously confusing.

To me. As an adult. I can't even imagine discussing this with a small child and having them understand.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by CathMac

However I don't think it's asking a lot that that you at least try defer the issue until the visit was over, so that Santa wasn't "ruined" for this other family. You could have officially validated your son's feelings, your beliefs, and your parenting choice after she left.

How, exactly? What, in your opinion, should the OP have said?

[vanauken]

I don't think it's the same as a religious belief. The reason? Because NO ONE believes that Santa Claus (not St. Nicholas the historical figure - but the jolly elf) is real. Everyone has their religious (or athiestic) beliefs - beliefs they sincerely hold. But no adult actually thinks there's a North Pole workshop, you know?

So, if there was a little kid who was Mormon, say, who asked me, "do you believe in the Book of Mormon?", I'd say, "No, I don't. Your parents do. I believe the Bible is only inspired word of God." I wouldn't make fun of his beliefs, but I wouldn't lie about mine. And that's pretty much how I'd expect his parents to answer my kids if they asked them a religious question, I'd hope that the other parent would say, "No, we don't believe that, we believe XYZ." Then my child and I could discuss why we believe one thing and they believe the other.

In that case, we both have sincerely held beliefs. I think they're wrong, they think I'm wrong, but we can respect the belief.

With Santa . . . well, no one thinks he's real. So, while I'd respect that parents can do Santa traditions with their kids if they want, the most I could say is, "I understand your parents have told you that." Or, maybe, like I would with the religious beliefs, "No, we don't believe that, we believe XYZ," and in this case "XYZ" would be "we believe St. Nicholas was an early church bishop who was a good, godly man."

So, yeah. In this case, I think people are asking for even MORE sensitivity for Santa Claus than they would for religious belief, which doesn't make sense to me.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by vanauken

So, yeah. In this case, I think people are asking for even MORE sensitivity for Santa Claus than they would for religious belief, which doesn't make sense to me.

I agree. But I have a theory about why. I think people are worried that they won't be able to defend the Santa belief to their child they way they can defend their religious beliefs, because they aren't true beliefs.

I sense a lot of fear in these conversations. Fear that Christmas will lose its magic. Fear that Santa will be "ruined". Possibly even fear that the dc will be upset about hearing the truth from someone other than the parent. I wonder how the Santa myth is worth the magic if it is bundled up with all that anxiety.

I also wonder what the exact words are the Cathmac expected the mother to speak. I'd say something similar if a child in my home were talking about their religious beliefs, and my dc said it wasn't true (deflect with "families have different beliefs"). I'd hope another mother would do the same if *my* child were in their home and having a similar conversation on religion. Again, the Santa/religion metaphor is a flawed one because the parents don't actually believe.....but what is the "non-offensive" response in these situations?

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

I think the OP's son's matter-of-fact response in the face of manipulation (aka "Santa won't bring you presents if you don't do xyz") and the OP's swift and diplomatic handling of the situation were not rude in the slightest. I would even say that the little girl was being really rude

I pretty much agree with this. It happened the same way with my ds, and at least one other dc on this thread.

In the OP's situation (just like my ds's) her ds kept quiet about Santa until the friend just kept going, and he (evidently) felt he had to say something to "defend" himself.

I think it's just as rude for a child to insist that Santa IS real/won't bring gifts/etc as it is for a child to insist that Santa isn't real. It should be the same either way- either it's rude and we ALL need to tell our kids that others believe different things about Santa, or it's all good and it's ok to say that Santa's real (and won't come if you're bad) AND it's ok to say he's not.

I just think the burden shouldn't fall totally on the people who don't do Santa to keep the "magic alive" for those who do. We have OUR beliefs too, yk? Now, that's certainly not to say that I would encourage ds to tell the truth (though atm, the truth for him is that Santa is real lol) and I have told him not to tell other kids that Santa's not real (by changing the subject, etc). And *I* would never ever tell a kid (other than my own) that Santa's not real. My standby is "Some families celebrate Santa and some don't."

[gillibean]

When our children ask about Santa being real our response is that he is real if you believe in him.

While Santa is literally a man with a white beard wearing a red suit, he also has come to represent the spirit of giving especially for those who don't celebrate it with a religious view.

eta: Our kids have had lots of people tell them that Santa isn't real. They still believe and will often reply that he's real if you believe. We also never threaten them with coal.

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

I think kids will believe in Santa even if some other kid tells them he's not real. Heck, my ds believes in Santa even though *I* tell him he's not real. lol.

My 4 year old decided he's real this year, too. I do not know how this has happened (actually I do, I can pinpoint it to one gross cookie mix, that he can't even eat, ad). Good to know I'm not alone with a 4 year old doing this.

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

I get not wanting to lie and encouraging your kids to tell the truth, but I also think that teaching them to be courteous to others is important too.

Kids aren't perfect.

Somehow my mom got my brother and I to not ruin it for others, but then we didn't have "playdates" then, and there wasn't much discussion of "do you believe in Santa" at our Montessori school. By the time I got to elementary school, we might have done little projects of making Santa's face out of construction paper, but I remember no "I can't wait for Santa to come" conversations. So maybe it's just that the full topic never came up for us to test my mom's rules.

Originally Posted by CathMac

BTW, if my kid found out this way I'd be ripping mad.

But this is how kids find out. Through conversations with other kids, and overhearing things that they have to question. This kid didn't go home crying that there was no Santa, she probably didn't even really understand what the OP meant by what she said to her son. She probably is eagerly awaiting bedtime tonight just as much as she would have been the other day. But this IS the way kids find out, so I certainly hope you would be "ripping mad", because it is GOING to happen someday.

Though you could be like my stepmom, who forces her kids to say they believe, or they don't get ANY presents. Her kids are 26, 24, and 14. That way she's never had to deal with the reality that her kids don't believe anymore and she doesn't need to be mad at anyone.

Originally Posted by 2xy

As for respecting others' beliefs....we're atheists, yet people have been known to bombard us with talk about gods and Jesus, Gaia, what have you. Do you see that as disrespectful? Or are we only supposed to respect the beliefs of the majority? Do you think it's rude for another child to tell my child that Jesus is most definitely the son of God? If not, then it's also not rude for my son to tell another child that their religion is untrue. And yes, our beliefs are just as important to us as yours are to you; just for different reasons.

I was raised with a Santa-free holiday. Religion-free too, which is why my current family celebrated on the solstice rather than tomorrow, but that's a digression. Although I don't remember any issues with my friends (there were no problems about their being Catholic, either, even though we didn't attend ANY church), as I became an adult I became mystified as to why it's the responsibility of the people not telling anything extra to keep the extra stuff for other kids. It's mind-boggling! Just like other things discussed on mothering, there is the way things are, the way nature made us, the way nature causes things to happen for most people. And there are those who choose to do OTHER things. Santa is an OTHER thing, and while I have tried to let DS know that we just shouldn't talk about it outside of the house ("tried" b/c as I mentioned, he's decided he believes in Santa so nothing I said got through), I don't always think it's fair just HOW MUCH SANTA is around! Everyone asks him about it, just like everyone asks if he's in school. Just like everyone assumed he'd had lots of solids and was done with nursing by the time he was 6 months old. Etc etc etc. It gets exhausting!

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Sorry, but any parent who can't handle "other people have different beliefs" has no business letting their kids play with anyone who might possibly have different beliefs. Everything from Santa to whether one should have a shower in the morning.

Originally Posted by mamazee

I think that it would be nice if parents who don't do the Santa thing would say to their kids something like, "Some kids believe Santa is real and you don't have to tell other kids the truth about Santa" or something.

I don't like the holier than thou "we don't teach our kids myths about guys in red suits and I'd be proud if my kid outed Santa" attitude. I mean, don't do it if you don't want to, but it's unnecessary to mock the whole thing.

Every person (solely online; everyone around me did the Santa thing) I know of who does not use Santa DOES have that sort of conversation.

Where are you seeing holier than thou, where are you seeing mocking????


IF you are referring to the use of the word "lie" or "lying" in these discussions, they aren't holier than thou, and they aren't mocking those who do, they are simply using an appropriate word for *what is happening*. Even someone who DOES do the Santa thing on this thread said she lied! It is an appropriate use of a word to describe what is happening, and when I use the word that is what is behind it, not mockery or being holier than thou. After all, I goofed with DS about the yule fairy, LOL. Though he figured out that was me pretty quick!

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

Is the outrage a product of Santa-believing, Christian American privilege?

.

most christians i know don't celebrate santa and are offended by it. my family is a bit of an outcast for doing so. santa isn't about commercialism or consumerism for us. i mean, he only brings my kids one gift each...the fat cheap skate, lol. it's just a sense of magical make-believe wonder. it's not an american tradition only. many cultures embrace santa or a form of santa. not to mention there are loads of other traditions world wide that involve make-believe figures and such. i think it's kinda cool.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by milkybean

Every person (solely online; everyone around me did the Santa thing) I know of who does not use Santa DOES have that sort of conversation.

Yes, my mom had that conversation with us, and I had that conversation with dd (the "please respect other dc's belief in Santa" conversation, that is). But I remember how tiring it got to listen to my best friend question me about "How will Santa get into our houses if we don't have chimneys?" every year. And I can completely see how a young child (as in the op) could react strongly if told that they won't get any presents if they are naughty, or whatever, and blurt "there is no Santa". I never did, nor did my dd to the best of my knowledge, but I can easily see how it happens. It would be easier if Santa believing kids didn't talk about it so darn much, lol, but they are understandably excited!

[frontierpsych]

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

She wasn't being rude, and the OP's son wasn't being rude. They were just two kids reacting to a situation based on how they've been taught.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Regardless of what's true or what might hurt someone's feeling, etc, I don't think either kid had ill intent. She was warning him of the consequences she'd learned, and he was reiterating with what he had been told about Santa. I think it's just one of those times that the kids will have to decide for themselves what to believe.

[runes]

Originally Posted by CathMac

Wow, I can't believe anyone would characterize this 5 year old girl as being manipulative.

No one characterized the girl as being manipulative. She was stating her understanding of the Santa myth, which the way she was stating it (and the way that many families teach it, for better or worse) is at it's core, a manipulation.

Big difference.

The OP's son reacted to that, which especially if his family A) doesn't believe in Santa and B) doesn't engage in coercive authoritarian parenting measures, it could be quite distasteful to be told something like that.

It does sound like many here don't do the whole "naughty/nice" part of Santa, but many many people do. That kind of Santa is not about unconditional love, and the story is kind of creepy, if you think about how a child might interpret some hairy old obese guy who's "gonna find out who's naughty or nice", and how that would feel to a little one who is told to behave lest they get a lump of coal.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by milkybean

Where are you seeing holier than thou, where are you seeing mocking????


IF you are referring to the use of the word "lie" or "lying" in these discussions, they aren't holier than thou, and they aren't mocking those who do, they are simply using an appropriate word for *what is happening*. Even someone who DOES do the Santa thing on this thread said she lied! It is an appropriate use of a word to describe what is happening, and when I use the word that is what is behind it, not mockery or being holier than thou. After all, I goofed with DS about the yule fairy, LOL. Though he figured out that was me pretty quick!

No, I'm talking about this:

If the other family hadn't lied to their kids about pretend men in red suits... then there would be no issue. Your kid was just being honest.

That's the only one in *this* thread, but I've read other threads and I really do think that some parents (not all by any means) who don't "do" Santa get holier-than-thou about it. I just don't think it's a big enough deal to get worked up over either way. Some families do the Santa thing, some don't. Kids will find out sooner or later that Santa isn't real, and it's likely to come from other kids, because that's the way kids operate. Those of us who do "do" Santa need to understand that this belief is temporary, that's how it's supposed to be, and it's OK.

My daughter told a trillion kids at the age of 4 specifically and explicitly where babies come from. I was more uncomfortable with how to deal with that than I am with other kids telling my kid Santa isn't real. Or my earlier thing about how my dd told a kid that God was just a silly story. I didn't feel comfortable with that either. I'd like it, as I said, if parents made some little statement about some people believing and it's nice to not spill the beans if unnecessary, but that particular thing doesn't particularly bug me.

[BunnySlippers]

Originally Posted by octobermom

Your son didn't do a thing to ruin it. Part of the "magic" associated is the willinginess to believe and even question it when others say its untrue. Were are faced with chalanges in all areas throughout life some are out right lies some very true some true in spirt others in our imginations etc.. The mothers over reaction would give me a lot more pause than the hnest words of your child.

Deanna

A very wise post.

Your son ruined nothing.

[PaxMamma]

Originally Posted by CathMac

JMO.
~Cath

i think it would be good to remember that there are REAL people on the other side of these screens. points are better taken when delivered respectfully.

to insinuate that i did not show compassion to this family or am somehow insensitive to their beliefs is ludicrous. i felt badly about how it all played out. that's why i posted here. if i didn't give a rat's ass, i would have gone about my business. you folks would never have heard about it. i gave a lot of grace to this family in this situation and would hope to receive it here, too.

i DO care about this family. the little girl is a former student of mine and, quite possibly, the most enchanting child i've ever met. i don't take lightly that my ds or i may have caused her to be, at best, uncomfortable, and, at worst, disillusioned (not quite the word i want here, but anyway).

[eclipse]

OP, we "do" Santa in our house, and I would have had no problem either with what your child said or how you handled it. I don't expect my kids to believe forever. Either they'll figure it out on their own, they'll ask me, or some other kid will tell them. That's just how it works. As it is, my Santa believing 7 year old is also an unabashed atheist, and I have to constantly work with him about being respectful of other people's religious ideas without compromising his own beliefs. It's just part of growing up and learning to navigate in our multicultural society. So, in closing, I'm annoyed at the other mother, and I wasn't even there.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And yes, our beliefs are just as important to us as yours are to you; just for different reasons.

Originally Posted by rainyday

I also don't know why you're so convinced that we're christian. We're not.

I'm assuming that it's my sentence quoted above that gave you that impression. That's not what I meant.

I meant "your beliefs....whatever they are." Also, it was more like a collective "you." Sorry for the confusion.

[zeldamomma]

Originally Posted by eclipse

op, we "do" santa in our house, and i would have had no problem either with what your child said or how you handled it. I don't expect my kids to believe forever. Either they'll figure it out on their own, they'll ask me, or some other kid will tell them.
...
It's just part of growing up and learning to navigate in our multicultural society. So, in closing, i'm annoyed at the other mother, and i wasn't even there.

ita.

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

How, exactly? What, in your opinion, should the OP have said?

sapphire_chan,
The visit was ending. The little girl was going home shortly. All she had to do was re-direct or distract both kids for a very short period of time.

Since the whole thing started over the OP's DS not wanting to pick his toys up that would be a logical thing to focus on, but I'm sure there are any number of other things she could have come up with.

By instead reminding her son of her standing instructions to "agree to disagree" on the existence of Santa she impliedly validated his position. Even a four year old would know that if his mother thought he was wrong she would have simply said that.

So whether the OP meant to or not she essentially sided with one pre-schooler over another when no one was there to validate the little girl's belief or take her side. I imagine she felt pretty outnumbered.

And to answer another PPs question, of course it would be just as wrong for the Mom of a Santa believer to do that to a non Santa believer.
~Cath

[Realrellim]

Originally Posted by CathMac

no one was there to validate the little girl's belief or take her side. I imagine she felt pretty outnumbered.

Meh. I bet the little girl thought "no presents for you then!" and went on her merry way. Seriously--look at all the Christmas specials and whatnot hat tfeature someone who says "No, Santa isn't real" and the response is "he only brings presents to people who believe" and the ending shows the kid usually believing in Santa.

Unless I miss my guess, that little girl is probably feeling pretty smug today about all the presents Santa brought her and how that little boy won't get any. (And the little boy gets to be a happy non-Santa camper too). And they all lived happily ever after.

[veganf]

Originally Posted by philomom

If the other family hadn't lied to their kids about pretend men in red suits... then there would be no issue. Your kid was just being honest.

My thoughts exactly. I just try to teach a little tact in these situations, since all families do things differently, whether it's Santa or something else.