A Hypothetical What If?

[bedheadmaestro]

Hi,
I am due in 2 months and am having a hard time finding a pediatrician that will allow me to not vaccinate [They have all said after I ask about their stance on vaccinations: "if you are planning on not vaccinating then you can not be seen at our practice."] Then I was considering using the religious exemption (which seems disingenuous to me considering that I am very anti-religion), but then I see these threads where one might have to cite specific beliefs when using the exemption, and because I am not versed in religion, I have no idea how to make up some explanation for my "religious beliefs" just in case I have to do that. Do pediatricians have to honor religious exemptions and continue seeing you?
So.
Let's say I don't vaccinate, accomplishing this by just not going to the pediatrician. Then let's say my child does get D, P, or T or M or M or R or the chicken pox or rotavirus or hepatitis or something. Then let's say my child was the one in a million who succumbs to the disease and dies. Or let's say I take the ill child to get treated and they see no record of vaccinations or pediatric visits. What would be in store for me? Charges of child neglect? Prison? know it's unlikely but I ask this simply because my luck really is this bad sometimes.
Thanks,
N

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by bedheadmaestro

Hi,
I am due in 2 months and am having a hard time finding a pediatrician that will allow me to not vaccinate [They have all said after I ask about their stance on vaccinations: "if you are planning on not vaccinating then you can not be seen at our practice."]

Then don't go to a pediatrician go to a family practice Dr. Or you can say you are delaying to 1 or 2 to buy yourself some time.

Then I was considering using the religious exemption (which seems disingenuous to me considering that I am very anti-religion), but then I see these threads where one might have to cite specific beliefs when using the exemption, and because I am not versed in religion, I have no idea how to make up some explanation for my "religious beliefs" just in case I have to do that. Do pediatricians have to honor religious exemptions and continue seeing you?

Exemptions are for school. You don't need one for a Dr. though you could submit a letter saying you are religiously opposed to the practice of vaccination (and really, when it comes to protecting the health of your children is being disingenuous matter? -- though religious doesn't always mean organized religion or even believing a god at all). You do not have to explain your beliefs to your doctor, "I am not discussing my religious belief with you/a doctor" or "why, do you want to join? we have great koolaid". You should not have to justify not injecting prophylactic drugs in your child. A pediatrician can refuse to see you for any reason.

Let's say I don't vaccinate, accomplishing this by just not going to the pediatrician. Then let's say my child does get D, P, or T or M or M or R or the chicken pox or rotavirus or hepatitis or something. Then let's say my child was the one in a million who succumbs to the disease and dies. Or let's say I take the ill child to get treated and they see no record of vaccinations or pediatric visits. What would be in store for me? Charges of child neglect? Prison? know it's unlikely but I ask this simply because my luck really is this bad sometimes.
Thanks,
N

Again, there are other doctors besides pediatricians. Some here go to annual visits as a CYA. It is not illegal not to vaccinate. Medical neglect is not obtaining necessary medical care for your child. If they are not sick and they don't go to the Dr. that is not definitively medical neglect. Getting a VAD is not medical neglect, and getting pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, or the rotovirus is generally not reason to take them to the Dr. Hepatitis is a blood born disease and not easy to acquire. Having a doctor of record can help you out if you do run afoul of social services at some point.

[PaigeC]

Did you ask about a ped in your tribal area? I got a reference for my area and he was a great doctor. It took a huge weight off my mind.

My next step was going to be get a FP instead of a ped as pp said.

[talk de jour]

A death like that will at the very least entail a visit from DCFS and an investigation.

You're unlikely to be charged, unless you are engaging in other neglectful practices or failed to get some kind of necessary medical care (which vaxes are not *legally* considered)

[claddaghmom]

I do WBV w/ a family doctor. It's purely CYA. Although, he is a great doctor (probably one of the last of his kind) kinda like a Sherlock Holmes of doctors. So we get an interesting perspective on the tiniest of things when we visit. DH says he is the nice version of Dr. House.

He always starts the visit off w/ "Is this to treat something or are we visiting today?" lol I wonder how many people use him as a CYA doctor.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

A death like that will at the very least entail a visit from DCFS and an investigation.

FTR, ALL SIDS cases are investigated as homocides and the parents are the number one suspects. I was told this at a Red Cross CPR/First Aid Class. SBS is a likely charge as it mimics vaccine damage.

Since the OP is asking about not vaccinating, I would remind everyone of the 1986 study done by UCLA School of Public Health that linked SIDS cases in the early 1980s in Los Angeles County to the DPT vaccine.

http://www.*********/vaccine/sids.html

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by applejuice

FTR, ALL SIDS cases are investigated as homocides and the parents are the number one suspects. I was told this at a Red Cross CPR/First Aid Class.

Since the OP is asking about not vaccinating, I would remind everyone of the 1986 study done by UCLA School of Public Health that linked SIDS cases in the early 1980s in Los Angeles County to the DPT vaccine.

http://www.*********/vaccine/sids.html

Which no longer is used, FTR.

[Peony]

I play the "I'm not vaxing for religious reasons" card and I am not religious in any sense. Only once did I have someone question what those religious beliefs were and I just firmly and politely stated that I wasn't here to discuss my religious beliefs and brought the conversation back to the issue at hand.

I did have a child get seriously ill from a VPD (pertussis), we were reported to the health dept as is required with a VPD like that. We were never reported to anywhere beyond that. One of my children had no medical records to speak of (she was almost 4) the other was a newborn and had been a homebirth so few records as well. We were not established patients of the doc practice that we first went to with DD1 when she got sick, no one batted an eye. No one even asked for her records and still hasn't to this day, I take DD1 in now when I need a referral or signature for some of her therapies. Course my DD2 has an extensive chart there by now. Had they asked for records then I probably would of said that I'll get them to them soon, and then just let it drop. Sometimes a large, busy practice can be good for things like that, they don't have to time to notice small details.:


I do live in a state that doesn't have the highest vax numbers so I know not vaxing is something that the docs run into frequently. We had the same experience at the hospitals DD2 was either admitted to or consulted on her case due to the circumstances, young age and being unable to get off O2 for 6 months.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

Which no longer is used, FTR.

Is the new and improved DTaP any better? How good is its record? There are twelve years now to analyze. How is the VAERS record on the aP?

Ten more years elapsed before the DPT was replaced by the DTaP vaccine (1986-1996), after the study was published and released; how many babies reacted/died because of that delay?

Furthermore, according to Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, there have been many articles in professional and medical journals since 1940 documenting the raging disagreement within the medical community as to the neurotoxicity of the P component of the DPT shot.

How many decades will it be before the aP portion is pulled with a new and improved version? How many babies, yet unborn, will react to it?

[bedheadmaestro]

Thanks for the responses. I totally forgot about "family practice" doctors because I just never go to the doctor myself-i was seen by military doctors only when under orders to do so! As for my reasons for not vaccinating, I received the dtap, MMR, oral typhoid, and hep b vaccines at 7 weeks pregnant and I am terrified that my insane vaccination record (I have gotten dang near every vaccine, including yellow fever, japanese encephalitis, anthrax, oral polio, smallpox, meningitis, and way too many extra MMR vaxes) and I feel somehow that my ridiculous vaccination history will in turn affect my child, esp. the ones I got when pregnant. I think there's one study out there about vaccinated moms having sick babies and it seems like an area that needs to be studied more.
N

[newmum35]

Good for you for wanting to give your child a better life! ARe you still in the military? I can't beleve they make you get all those vaxes, and you can't even opt out- thats crazy. Esp. when pregnant, too! Insane.

[bedheadmaestro]

Well, the vaccines you get depend on the places you get stationed, so not everyone gets pumped with as much stuff as I did. What with today's political climate you can imagine where I got sent. I did get 12 different vaccines in one day though. We would always be getting orders to go get our flu shots, teeth cleaned, OB-GYN appts, urinalysis, physicals, etc. I suppose they are mandating Gardasil now too. I got out of the military four years ago but I am still a defense contractor doing the same type of work, and still am ordered to get certain vaccines if I have to "go somewhere"-however, it doesn't look like I will EVER have to get another vaccine or booster or anything unless they invent something new. I have more preservatives in me than a twinkie, so I guess it will just be me and the roaches when the end of the world comes.

[spero]

Originally Posted by bedheadmaestro

I did get 12 different vaccines in one day though.

Ho-ly CRAP. :

I suppose they are mandating Gardasil now too.

If you have children you can't get Gardasil anyway.

[MarineMommy]

FTR, the military is mandating Gardasil, my sister is a Marine, she was diagnosed with HPV, then they gave her the shot. Pretty stupid, since the shot is supposed to protect against HPV. Smart military docs!!! She has since spoke with her Capt. and told him that she is strongly opposed to being injected with chemicals and viruses, they haven't said anything to her about it, she even got out of the flu shot!!! I am so proud of her!!!

[PGTlatte]

Give up on peds and look for a family practice physician who will see an infant from these lists:

http://www.alsearsmd.com/content/index.php?id=61

http://www.acamnet.org/site/c.ltJWJ4...M_Homepage.htm

or the Finding Your Tribe area here at MDC,

or the AP_Doctor_Referral Yahoo group.....

This will give you a better chance of finding a doctor who will be comfortable with not vaccinating or at least not on the schedule and not be freaky about it whenever your child has an illness.

Do not let a pediatrician use power and fear to bully you into things that go against your intuition....I did and I regret it.

Originally Posted by bedheadmaestro

Hi,
I am due in 2 months and am having a hard time finding a pediatrician that will allow me to not vaccinate

[Full Heart]

A religious exemption will not get you a ped. They refuse usually because of their insurance. They can't take non vaxed kids per their insurance, they do they loose that insurance. So exemptions won't do any good.

A death from a VPD is not medical neglect. Medical neglect would be getting one of those diseases and then not seeking treatment when it was obvious there was complications. My mother had CPS called on her for medical neglect and it was quickly resolved when my mother told the CPS worker what was going on (the ND who called cps was a total quack). It was about her not seeing the ped cardiologist fast enough (had an apt weeks away) and nothing about my brothers non vax status. Its usually a non issue. All my kids had WC and never had a call or visit from CPS.

I think all my kids have been to the drs or hospital because they were ill and none have ever been vaxed and its not been an issue. Some drs can be pains about it but stick to the "I have religious objections" and they usually back down. You could be of the church of blue sky and thats your religion. You don't have to say what religion in those cases.

I'm sorry you had to have all those vaxes. My body couldn't even handle tetanus I can't imagine what would happen with all those in me! But I did have to laugh about the twinkie and roach comments lol.

[applejuice]

Full Heart, a lot of what you say is true, but a lot of it depends on the politics of the local CPS, other government entities and the how badly the medical hcp wants to drive home the message that the mother needs to vaccinate her child NOW!

And in my case, it was over 17 years ago, when many of you were not mothers yet, and I was the probably the only mother for miles who did not vaccinate based on religious and philosophical convictions and a life time of research. I had a constant trek of CPS workers to my home. They note how many times they have been called to a particular family and for what.

Also I want to add that since I had my run in with CPS and the ERs 17 years ago, CAlifornia law has changed, making it possible to sue a reporter of child abuse for slander or libel, but it is still very difficult.

I reported the doctor to his BMQA for misconduct and malfeasance; nothing came of it, but he has a report against him all the same.

[Full Heart]

Well thats why I tell everyone to have a CYA folder and know how to deal with CPS. However, with 7 kids all of whom have been to a variety of drs, specialists and hospitals (and my moms 6 who have been seen by all sorts of drs for all sorts of conditions) and never once having had CPS called on us in 2 different states I think its probably is the rare case that it happens. Even when we are dealing with a VPD. I think you should be more wary of neighbors, friends and family honestly. CPS is not gonna tell you who called them either. Which is a good reason to keep that info to yourself. No one needs to know the vax status of your child.

Of course the laws are gonna vary by state but for the most part neglect is considered unreasonable refusal or failure to provide care. There are some states do take into account religious objections to medical care.