"Say you're sorry." - Page 5

[Lolagirl]

Originally Posted by Sancta

SO, if Brother hits Sister, I don't just rattle off "Say I'm sorry." I pull him aside and talk to him. "Did you hit her? WHY did you hit her? She's crying now - you hurt her. Do you know that you hurt her? How do you feel about that? What if she would have hit you - would you have liked that? Wouldn't you have been sad too? Now she doesn't want to play with you because you hurt her." So what I'm doing is helping him think about what he did to he hurt her, and how she is hurting. What he put her through. The thing is if I'm not there helping my toddler how to figure this out, he won't do it himself.

Then, after he thinks about all this and realizes what he's done, and agrees that he caused her pain and wouldn't want the pain to have been caused to him, comes the "Don't you think you need to tell her you're sorry?" And he tells her he's sorry. And he doesn't repeat the behavior for a long time, because he understands.

The problem for me is that if you DON'T help them through this and coach them to think about their behavior and apologize, then you may have lost a valuable teaching moment, because kids aren't going to sit in their rooms at night and think about the day's events and remember every time they may have hurt someone. An adult can do that, but kids don't. (That's the same reason we immediately dole out consequences for bad actions because if we wait even a few hours they don't remember what they did wrong anymore! They can't see the connection.)

Anyway, all this said, I'm only trying to teach empathy by those words. I want my kids to understand two things.

1. That when they hurt someone, they need to understand HOW they hurt that person and realize that another person has been injured by THEIR behavior

2. That when they have been hurt, if someone offers apology and tries to change their ways that forgiveness is a noble thing as well.

That's it. Does this make sense?

I totally agree with this, this is exactly how I approach apologies with my kids as well.

Storm Bride, you clearly had some negative experiences in the past with people offering insincere apologies after they had wronged you. I can certainly understand how that would color your opinion on this matter. However I think you're possibly being a bit unfair in assuming that everyone else is somehow also being insincere or encouraging a lack of sincerity by requiring an apology from their children.

The word sorry may mean nothing to you, but please don't deny that it can and often does mean a great deal to others. When I and many others say we are sorry, we use it to acknowledge that we wronged that person and to also let him or her know that we have remorse for our actions. I'm sorry is shorthand for that longer message much like thank you is shorthand for "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly." I'm sure there are some folks out there who take issue with others not using the longer and more verbose statement over the shorter thank you, but it would be similarly unfair for someone with this opinion to assume that anyone else who crosses his path would know not to say thank you and use the longer expression of gratitude instead.

[jlovesl]

Originally Posted by mama2toomany

We don't force it here. But they must here me say Sorry a lot, because my dd says she is sorry to everyone and everything. She bumped into her wipes box the other day and said "Sorry Wipes" lol I must say it a lot.

That is soo cute.
I think sorry is a word that is used very loosely now a days. I had a 4 year old cousin whose Mother took him to a wedding. He went up to the bride and told her she was ugly(??? for whatever reason). My Aunt told him to say sorry immediately, so in response he said" I'M SORRY YOUR UGLY". It was soooo funny. Wrong but funny!
But are there really not times when a person does something and they are not sorry? Although it hurt someone else they just are not SORRY!!!!!Why is that not ok? I once told a woman to go to hell and die? Am I sorry NO!!!!! Still feel that way and don't care that it hurt her feelings. I'm just not sure that you always have to be remorseful for how you truly feel.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Sancta

Okay, here's what I'm thinking you're trying to say, Storm Bride.

Brian hits James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." A bit later Brian kicks James. Mom says, "Say you're sorry." Brian says, "I'm sorry James." etc.....it goes on.

If this is what you mean, then I agree with you that I'm sorry means nothing. It's a forced response. Brian is learning nothing other than when you hurt someone you have to say those words, then you get to continue with the behavior.

BUT - read what you say here:



What we do (parents who "force" apologies) is exactly this. We don't just stand there like Brian's Mom, forcing the words to be said just because. And quite honestly, the whole socially acceptable mandate thing isn't why I force apologies either. I do it because kids are still in their learning, formative periods and what I help them learn now they will hopefully have with them later. And what am I trying to teach them? Empathy.

SO, if Brother hits Sister, I don't just rattle off "Say I'm sorry." I pull him aside and talk to him. "Did you hit her? WHY did you hit her? She's crying now - you hurt her. Do you know that you hurt her? How do you feel about that? What if she would have hit you - would you have liked that? Wouldn't you have been sad too? Now she doesn't want to play with you because you hurt her." So what I'm doing is helping him think about what he did to he hurt her, and how she is hurting. What he put her through. The thing is if I'm not there helping my toddler how to figure this out, he won't do it himself.

Then, after he thinks about all this and realizes what he's done, and agrees that he caused her pain and wouldn't want the pain to have been caused to him, comes the "Don't you think you need to tell her you're sorry?" And he tells her he's sorry. And he doesn't repeat the behavior for a long time, because he understands.

The problem for me is that if you DON'T help them through this and coach them to think about their behavior and apologize, then you may have lost a valuable teaching moment, because kids aren't going to sit in their rooms at night and think about the day's events and remember every time they may have hurt someone. An adult can do that, but kids don't. (That's the same reason we immediately dole out consequences for bad actions because if we wait even a few hours they don't remember what they did wrong anymore! They can't see the connection.)

Anyway, all this said, I'm only trying to teach empathy by those words. I want my kids to understand two things.

1. That when they hurt someone, they need to understand HOW they hurt that person and realize that another person has been injured by THEIR behavior

2. That when they have been hurt, if someone offers apology and tries to change their ways that forgiveness is a noble thing as well.

That's it. Does this make sense?

Sure, it makes sense. I just don't see what "I'm sorry" has to do with it. As I said, dd is the one who just won't say it (I think she's said it once), but she's also the one who will feel terrible, for a long time, about hurting someone. She gets really mad or whatever, but once she calms down, she really thinks about it, and realizes someone was hurt. DS2 will say "I'm sorry" at the drop of a hat, including a hug and kiss, most of the time. But, it doesn't sink in, and so far, at least, he's probably the least empathetic of my kids...the most likely to say sorry, but the least likely to actually be upset about or relate to the fact that he hurt someone.

And...dd doesn't accept apologies very well, either. They make her mad. What I find with her is that when someone is forced to apologize to her, it's usually too soon, and she's nowhere near ready to hear it.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Lolagirl

I totally agree with this, this is exactly how I approach apologies with my kids as well.

Storm Bride, you clearly had some negative experiences in the past with people offering insincere apologies after they had wronged you. I can certainly understand how that would color your opinion on this matter. However I think you're possibly being a bit unfair in assuming that everyone else is somehow also being insincere or encouraging a lack of sincerity by requiring an apology from their children.

I do not understand how anybody can require a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to say "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.

The word sorry may mean nothing to you, but please don't deny that it can and often does mean a great deal to others. When I and many others say we are sorry, we use it to acknowledge that we wronged that person and to also let him or her know that we have remorse for our actions.

Fine. That's what it means to you, and to many others. But, what it actually means is "I've been taught to say this".

I'm sorry is shorthand for that longer message much like thank you is shorthand for "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly."

Yeah, well, lots of people say "thank you" without appreciating anything, too, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm sure there are some folks out there who take issue with others not using the longer and more verbose statement over the shorter thank you, but it would be similarly unfair for someone with this opinion to assume that anyone else who crosses his path would know not to say thank you and use the longer expression of gratitude instead.

I don't care what words people use - long or short is irrelevant to me. If you say "thank you" or "I greatly appreciate your time, effort and kindness and want to acknowledge that to you directly" and then make it clear through your actions that you don't appreciate what I did at all, then...so what? Likewise, if someone doesn't say anything, but their actions tell me that they appreciate what I did, that's wonderful.

Talk is cheap. On these boards, thread after thread after thread about teaching children to use particular words pops up. Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.

[Carley]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I do not understand how anybody can require a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to say "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.

Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.

Teaching kids words, encouraging/prompting/forcing them to say them and teaching them what they mean in context are not different things.

Children can be taught to say something AND taught what it means at the same time e.g. "Hello" "Goodbye" "Please" "Thank you" "I'm sorry" "Excuse me" "I want some fish" "I love you" whatever. As they learn and practice IN CONTEXT they learn the bigger meanings.

They learn to say "I want some fish please" in order to be polite when they want some fish. They learn to say "Bye mom" instead of "Goodbye," reflecting the impact practice and encouragement have on understanding language. They learn to say "I need space" when they need space.

They also understand "USE YOUR WORDS" If I didn't teach my kid whining and crying wasn't acceptable and she must use her words to be polite and understood then she'd probably be whining & crying for everything.

Even BABIES can be taught words and their meanings at the same time, hence sign language is so popular. At first the signs might mean "I was taught (required) to say this" under these circumstances but as they practice they learn the bigger meaning. A

s they get older we have them say "Hungry" instead of a sign. The bright ones know when to say it from the practice they had when they were babies. "When I'm hungry and I say "Hungry" like Mommy tells me I get food." It's the same as "When I hit someone and I say "I'm sorry" like Mommy tells me my friends feel better."

If I hadn't taught my daughter "I want that" vs. "I want that please" and what it meant she would never say it and have very few friends at the park. Instead I made her say it in context and now she clearly knows what it means AND that it is polite. She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours

Part of learning anything is doing it. When I took German and Spanish I was prompted to recite words and phrases and as I did I learned what they meant and how the words could be used in various scenarios. I was forced at times to speak even though it was uncomfortable for me and I didn't fully grasp the expansive definitions of various contexts. The continuous repetition and practice in various contexts made me a fluent speaker. Learning how words can be used takes repetition and being taught by someone who knows better.

When my daughter hurts anyone, including me, she offers and apology and a hug NOT because she memorized a word, but because she was taught what it means, when to say it in context and, consequently, understands it makes the other person she hurt feel better. She knows this concept because she's been prompted AND taught in context as she was developing

You seem toootally bitter and angry about teaching children common courtesy. I don't get it, but we're all free to have our own opinions and baggage. You are totally free to have completely rude children who have no idea how to be social with the rest of the Western world. It's clear none of our opinions matter to you. I hope your kids aren't terribly confused as to why other children get upset when they take their toy & other parents are put off by their lack of manners.

When I was a teen I was fat AND in special education. I know all about teasing. It's not nice, and neither is not receiving or offering an apology. I conciously choose to let that baggage go so I can teach my daughter how to be nice and polite

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Talk is cheap. On these boards, thread after thread after thread about teaching children to use particular words pops up. Children are required to say "please", "thank you" and "I'm sorry". The argument is that these words are important, because they demonstrate respect, appreciation, remorse, etc. But, they don't. They mean "I was taught (required) to say this". In some cases, they mean more than that...but they have almost no inherent meaning at all.

Okay, let me ask you this. What if your kids never, ever, EVER told you they loved you? Ever. What if your hubby or SO never told you? Maybe they showed it by their actions, but they refused (or were too embarrassed) to ever verbalize it. You could tell them you loved them over and over, but they would never, ever, ever return the words.

Could you handle NEVER hearing it from them? Just asking, because those are "just words" too....

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Sancta

Okay, let me ask you this. What if your kids never, ever, EVER told you they loved you? Ever. What if your hubby or SO never told you? Maybe they showed it by their actions, but they refused (or were too embarrassed) to ever verbalize it. You could tell them you loved them over and over, but they would never, ever, ever return the words.

Could you handle NEVER hearing it from them? Just asking, because those are "just words" too....

I don't know. They say it. OTOH, my ex said it way more than dh does - and it infuriated me. Meaningless noise.

It's nice to hear "I love you", but it doesn't really mean that much. DS2 gives me incredibly nice cuddles, and I'd rather have those than the words. DH? DH doesn't say it that much, and I rarely even think about it.

So - I like hearing it, but...yeah, I think I could handle never hearing it. I know dh loves me, and I know the kids love me...and I know they could say they love me, no matter what they were really feeling.

[Storm Bride]

Carley...on my way out the door, but will try to remember to address your post later. However, you seem to have jumped to some conclusions. I don't have the greatest manners in some ways, because I'm very social phobic, and it throws me into a very antisocial state in company a lot of the time. However, I was taught all the common courtesies, and my evil grandmother was all about how rude people were if they didn't use the magic formulas.

As for my kid? DS1 is very polite, and very socially adept. I've received multiple compliments on how polite he is, and I can't think of anyone, adult or peer, who has ever met him who didn't like him. His manners are exceptionally good, and when I once thanked him for behaving so well at a really, really, really long and boring funeral, he told me that he "had to be quiet, out of respect for Uncle A". So...yeah...you can jump to whatever conclusions you want about me and my family. I won't force my children to say things they don't mean, but that doesn't mean I'm raising rude kids with no idea how to behave.

[jlovesl]

[
She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours



I think this statement lacks ALL kinds of manners. You don't have to have a brilliant child to have a polite child. I think some kids can say their sorry without any words at all. My son has not said he loves me( he's only 22 months) but I get random hugs and kisses and those are more special to me than any words he has to say. And if he accidentally hurts me he doesn't say "sorry" he kisses where he hurt me. Because he does not say, please thank you or sorry does not mean he is not brilliant. He just has other ways of communicating his feelings.

[claddaghmom]

huh interesting. (truly no argumentative tone here)

it never even occurred to me that some parents do not guide their children to apologize, or do not expect it in some cases.

i always lumped it in with please and thank you. 'you bumped timmy, what do you say?"

i teach dd that way b/c i know that she is a very interactive and verbal child. she is catching on. when she tugs my hair too hard or uses her new teeth (HOLY COWS) she already goes 'mum ta' (not sure what the ta means exactly, but the tone is obviously apologetic ha!")

i suppose if the situation contained elements of a shy, small child and a stranger, i might just apologize for the child.

now i wonder if those few times where i observed a kid not apologize were simply a parental difference.

mdc is so cool!

[hipumpkins]

I expect my kids to apologize however I do not always expect the words, "I'm sorry"
In my home our rule is "You make amends"
On a recent trip to Boston my DS was very rude to my friend who was riding shot gun.
I did not say anything at the exact moment that he was being rude b/c he would have been embarassed to have me talk to him in front of everyone in the car(it was 2 families in the car)
So when we stopped at the rest stop I talked gently to my son about his tone and gave him 3 choices of making amends.
Since he gets self conscious talking he chose the option of giving handshake. Which was his, "I'm sorry" an outstretched hand.

With other kids, though, I think the actual words, "I'm sorry" or an, "Are you ok?" are better. Kids don't often appreciate the handshake

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans

My youngest son works at a grocery store and sees all kinds of examples of bad parenting. He came home and asked me why parents forced their kids to appologize.

There are soooo many things that fall into the umbrella of bad parenting but the sole action of forcing/asking children to apologize hardly fits into it at all.

I just don't understand how this little snippet seen at the grocery store can actually make you have a good judgment of how bad or good a parent is.

[Carley]

Originally Posted by jlovesl

[
She understands complex concepts and learns quickly. I suppose my child is just more brilliant than yours



I think this statement lacks ALL kinds of manners.

That was tooooooooootally a joke

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I do not understand how anybody can require a sincere apology. If children are being required to apologize, then they're not being required to have empathy - they're being required to say "I'm sorry". Teaching kids about empathy and requiring them to say "I'm sorry" are two different things.

I agree. I simply cannot force my DS to "feel" sorry for something. If I feel bad about something that he's done, I tell them I'm sorry that he did that. This frequently prompts him to apologize. But apologies are not required.

Maybe he isn't ready (if you aren't ready to apologize, it's simply an exercise in obedience and submission to force someone to apologize) to apologize yet... maybe he will never be truly sorry (I've done things that hurt other people's feelings which to this day I do not feel sorry for). That's OK.

I think forcing someone to apologize, so that the other person can hear it, gets dangerously close to giving my DS responsibility for someone else's feelings. And, that's a responsibility he should not have (and neither should any of us).

[teale]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

:

Apologies are never forced in our house. It just makes the whole thing worse.

I agree. Anytime we're at a playdate and the Mama "makes" the child say sorry, I never know what to say? Most times, I do say something like, "DS is okay! You were both just playing and got excited! It happens!" If it is something that has been done on purpose, I generally feel really awkward and will smile and say, "DS appreciates that" or something like that.I just never know how to deal with it.

My DH apologizes for everything, and it drives me batty. I tell him he put the printer paper in the wrong spot (I was looking for it), he apologizes. I tell him I called him while I was at work, and he says sorry. He messes up and I'm mad, he says sorry. Problem is, he apologizes for everything, so when I really need him to apologize because the situation actually warrants it, I don't believe him.

It falls into the same category as please and thank you for me- say it if you mean it, and if not, I don't want to hear it :P

[ExuberantDaffodil]

we practice "make amends" and saying we're sorry/appologising in our family. If my son says something hurtful or bumps into someone, he needs to say "excuse me" or "I'm sorry" out of politeness, just like I expect him to say "please" when he would like something and "thank you" when he receives it. Now if his "I'm sorry" doesn't come out in a genuine way, I ask that me make amends in other ways. If he said something hurtful, he needs to say something kind. If he bumped someone or hit someone [in the family], he needs to give them a hug. Sometimes he is better at showing he is sorry rather than saying he is sorry. My son is very good at telling when he needs to genuinely say he's sorry on his own at this point. I wouldn't say I FORCE apologies, but I do expect that he act politely after a moment requiring an apology.

[Carley]

Originally Posted by teale

My DH apologizes for everything, and it drives me batty. I tell him he put the printer paper in the wrong spot (I was looking for it), he apologizes. I tell him I called him while I was at work, and he says sorry. He messes up and I'm mad, he says sorry.

Problem is, he apologizes for everything, so when I really need him to apologize because the situation actually warrants it, I don't believe him.

So wait... you don't like it when your husband apologizes when he feels he messed up, and then you don't believe him when he apologizes when you both feel he did something wrong?

Mindbending!

ETA you know how to remedy this situation? Force him to apologize then he'll only apologize when you want him to and never when he means it!