Why do you think the Twilight books are so popular? - Page 7

[joensally]

Originally Posted by joensally
Bella's been put on a pedestal, and is treated as though she's just so fragile.

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Well, compared to Edward (and Jacob after he comes into his powers) she IS fragile! It's a statement of fact (within the fictional world), not a judgement call about the roll of women.

It's fun. It's fantasy. It's NOT a model for human romantic relationships because it's not a human romance.

And the only things it has in common with Harry Potter is that they're both YA books that adults like, they're both written by female authors, both are "supernatural within the natural world", and, um, both have male and female characters in them? The books are VERY different in tone from one another and the HP series is much more appropriate for young kids.

I was referring to the male characters treating Bella as though she's fragile in every regard. Not just related to their extraordinary physical strength, but there's a whole lot of "ugh, Bella is so silly and can't make decisions for herself, and in fact needs to be protected from herself."

As for HP comparisons, I agree to the limits of comparisons (although I'll add that Rowling needed better editors ). Upthread I was commenting that I think some of the current Twilight fans are teens who were child/young teen HP fans. Their appetites have matured for steamier content.

I think this does a good job of analyzing the book:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-..._b_117927.html

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

She thought she was okay to drive, the school nurse thought she was okay to drive, but he thought differently so that's all that mattered? Not the same as driving drunk, that's a legal issue and something an outside observer is better able to assess than the person themselves. Opposite is true in this case.

I wouldn't compare it to driving drunk, but at the same time, the nurse didn't didn't say Bella was safe to drive. Edward volunteered to take Bella home, so when they left the nurse, she never had to say "yey" or "nay".

And yes, if you KNEW he was telepathic and overheard them thinking about raping her, yeah, great guy... but all she knows is he sees her on a street with four guys, he's angry, he says he has trouble with his temper and she's swooning. ick!

Well, even if you didn't know he could read minds... I think when one escapes the kind of danger described in the chapter, they are just happy to be safe, they don't tend to question their savior. I would guess if I was in Bella's shoes I would assume that it was obvious to any passer-by that I need help NOW, and anything would be welcome as a relief, not as a "you know what, why would I get in the car with you???" She did question how he found her almost right away, and that's how she found out he could read minds in the first place, so I would see no chance for her to see him as a controlling, jealous potential for a batterer. Besides, he didn't just say "I have a problem with my temper", he did explain himself, and referred it directly to the situation that was happening, and he did say he didn't want to turn the car around, she never had a reason to think that he was mad at her, as Edward was very clear that he was afraid to unleash his temper on the guys, not on her. Do you think someone you love might have a problem with temper in a given situation? I certainly can think of a few people in my own life, I guess that's why I can't picture it the way you are interpreting it, kwim?

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

You're missing what I'm saying. In the BOOK there's a reasonable explanation for all this. In the book it's shown this behavior is a good thing. But in REAL life if a guy behaves this way, it's not very likely it's because he's a telepathic vampire.

I guess the fact that it IS the book, and that we know Edward's motives, abilities and thoughts (and they become even more clearer in the Midnight Sun), we can enjoy it. Obviously, I wouldn't want neither my partner, nor anyone else's partner to demand to get in the car just because they are having a normal conversation with another guy on the street corner. But it's not what happens in the book, it's not a friendly conversation, and Edward's reaction is not one of jealousy, it's the rage of someone trying to hurt the one you love. Would I want Bella to get into an argument with him given the setting? It just wouldn't make sense any other way than the way it was written (well, to me ).

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

I hear the same arguments about violence in media, even though there's proven links between violent media and aggressive behavior. So yeah, I do think we humans in general are too "dumb" as you put it to separate real life from fiction.

I really think books are on a whole different level than TV. Reading books is an active work of mind, while watching a movie is passive. Reading LOTR and watching a movie LOTR can't be compared. While I love both, the experience is just too different. So I'll have to disagree.

We're programmed evolutionarily to store information based on emotion, so in fact I think we're MORE apt to play out our relationships based on relationships we interact with, books and movies that move us emotionally than we are when we think about what we rationally want in a relationship.

I really believe that parents modeling a healthy relationship for a child every day of that child's life will matter 1000% more than reading books about healthy (or unhealthy) relationships.

I'm actually interested in the "growth" in the relationship because the first book was written by a sheltered Morman woman, and with subsequent books she gained notoriety, which expanded her social circle and her income. That had to affect the power dynamic in her relationship. So I'm interested in studying the author through her writing.

Actually, Meyer wrote the whole story not long after she wrote Twilight. It is written as one whole book and she presented it to her sister as a gift (I think for her birthday ). So... the point I'm trying to make is that she knew how the story would end years before Breaking Dawn was published, so for you to truly study her through her writing (which, by the way, I think is a very interesting thing for just about any author!) you would need to compare the original manuscript with Breaking Dawn, kwim?

Thought the spoiler was funny because

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

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one website I read predicted it would end in pregnancy because no Morman woman was fully actualized until became was a mother.

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and I thought, naw that's just stereotyping...

I don't want to generalize Mormon women, but Meyer identifies herself a lot as a mother, she talks about being a mother, it is part of her identity as a person. I actually was making a guess about Bella ending up pregnant without knowing anything much about Mormon faith or Meyer's personal history, so I'm not sure if your statement above has anything to do with Meyer belonging to a particular faith. Heck, if you read any of my posts, you would know that I am beyond baby-feverish : and I actually believe that many women (more so than men) feel the need to have a baby. There is nothing wrong with ANY path a woman wants to choose in her life, but I think there is a biological reason why I yearn so much for a child, and why there are so many posts from women who want to have a (another) baby, and their husbands don't feel the need for it. I don't think being a feminist means you can't identify yourself first as a mom before anything else. I also think it is something natural to many women of many faiths, kwim?

And you know... even if I could get past all the anti-feminist, dysfunctional relationship stuff... they GLITTER!! WTF!... I mean... GLITTER?? really??? I just can't get past the idea that any self-respecting vampire would glitter.

I like that she didn't go with all the traditional "sleep in the coffin, afraid of the light, no garlic" deal, it's different. I understand why some might prefer traditional take on vampires, but I like that she stepped outside of it. I bet this is part of the reason these books has taken off, it's a familiar dangerous subject, but a very different take on it. And yeap, I like the glitter bit, I find it as a very original interpretation.

P.S. The way the book started is out a dream Meyer had. She dreamt the scene in the meadow, so I'm guessing that's where the glitter came in.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

It's fun. It's fantasy. It's NOT a model for human romantic relationships because it's not a human romance.

I think this is the statement I was thinking all along, and couldn't come up with. I don't have a problem with Edward and Bella because it is not human relationship, and it makes sense to me in the context of the fantasy world Meyer has created.

[Stayseeliz]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I think this is the statement I was thinking all along, and couldn't come up with. I don't have a problem with Edward and Bella because it is not human relationship, and it makes sense to me in the context of the fantasy world Meyer has created.

Yeah it is fantasy. And people need to remember that. It's vampire love for goodness sake. It's not going to be like human love.

As for the baby issue. I think so much of that was important because it showed that Bella didn't truly understand everything she was giving up in her decision to become a vampire. She didn't KNOW she wanted to be a mother until she got pregnant. There were aspects of a human life that she had discounted that she didn't truly understand.

[carriebft]

It's probably a good thing the fantasy genre doesn't have more of a following or we would have to deal with this about lots of authors and books

"You REALLY think Drizzt is a good role model??? He practically leads Wulfgar to his death twice! and he abuses his cat!"



I feel it's all a lot easier when you are the weirdo in the corner reading fantasy rather than front and center reading the 'best seller, on everyone's to read list' book.

[fork]

I really enjoy fantasy books, but I had no interest in this one. As soon as I found out it was all about abstinence I decided it wasn't for me. I like my vampire stories violent and with plenty of sex. DP downloaded a copy of the movie and we got though about 20 minutes of it before we couldn't take it anymore. Vampires don't sparkle! I wouldn't even have tolerated this book when I was a teenager.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person on earth who hates this series

[LiLStar]

lol, ironic with the username of fork though, eh? Breaking Dawn has plenty of sex. No play by plays of it, but they imply enough after the fact that you can fill in the blanks pretty well. Edward refused premarital sex because he was born in..1901 was it? And he was raised to be traditional in that sense. Bella was ready to rip his clothes off (and oh, did she try) by eclipse!

[Picturesque]

Originally Posted by LiLStar

Havent read the whole thread, but what I think part of the draw to me, is the character development. Every character has clear motives. Stephenie knows what is going on inside every characters head when they say or do something. Even if she doesnt make it clear to US why a character does or says what they do, she still does, and that makes them feel so real. I think I made that realization when reading midnight sun, and hearing everyone's thoughts through edward. Stephenie knew that all that was happening when writing Twilight (at least it sure seems like she did) and it fits so well, and gives a clearer understanding of characters. And I went to a book signing/q & a with her, and the way she answered the questions was incredible. for example, one that stood out was:

what were jane and alec like as humans that made them have the powers that they have as vampires? (or something like that)..minor spoiler

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

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and Stephenie said something like, jane and alec were the kind of kids who..well, bad things happened to people who made them angry. they were accused of being witches, and burned at the stake. the volturi were intrigued by their potential and rescued them. because of the pain of being burned, jane was all about spreading that pain to others, and alec was all about no pain, thus his ability to numb senses.

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And it made me think, wow, she REALLY doesn't just write things into her books arbitrarily, there's a reason behind everything. That makes her writing so compelling to me. It makes the characters seem real (and you should hear the way she talks about her characters and the writing process. To her, they ARE real) There are sometimes that I'll be sitting there thinking about Twilight and it'll hit me.. Belle, Edward, and the rest of the Cullens aren't even real! ..And then I'll feel kinda sad

This post really nailed it on the head for me. You really helped me identify what it was about these books that was so much more compelling that so many more "respectable" books I've read. The character development is so complete. I, too, get sad at my sudden realizations that the characters aren't real.

ETA: This is also my reason for loving HP and LOTR. The authors create characters that you want to know more about, and then give it to you.

[St. Margaret]

Originally Posted by Gendenwitha

I haven't a %$#^% clue!!! I think it's poisoning the youth of America with misogynist tripe. I read the first book because my nieces were so into them, I thought we've been out of contact for a while it would give us something to talk about... and OMG! It's horrible! You know I kept track, and whenever Bella put her foot down, and tried to disagree with Edward, Edward ALWAYS got his way. ALWAYS! Not one single disagreement in the book did Bella win... except when another male authority figure over Edward agrees with her so he gives in to HIS opinion.

I could give more examples if anyone wants them, but for a funnier take on it tho...
If Twilight was 10 times shorter and 100 times more honest

Thank you for that! I just read Twilight and it was all right... not the "real" YA fantasy I was expecting-- just a romance novel disguised as YA fantasy, but that explains its mainstream popularity. I still have the rest of the series in my library holds and I'll probably read them, because I have to keep up with YA fiction for work, but I was pretty meh about the book. If I wasn't so angry about the negative underlying messages, I probably could have enjoyed it more, but once I saw it that way, I was endlessly annoyed by Bella's passiveness and odd decisions. It got pretty good towards the end, and I'm hoping the rest of the series is better conceived (the first seemed to be JUST about them and then a sudden, nearly random Big Bad introduced... I figured it would have a bit better plotting.)

Now, a good modern teen vamp story-- Robin McKinnley's Sunshine. THAT rocks!

[Kristine233]

Whiel I first thought Edward was being pretty over protective, by book 4 we see a total switch. Bella gets her way for everything. I want to think that Stephanie had that planned out from the get-go with her transformation.

And then reading the Midnight Sun draft we read Edward's thoughts and the thoughts of those around them that influenced him. That was another take on every one of his actions, they made sense and didn't seem as over-bearing after that.

Like the car ride after she got faint fromt eh blood lab, while it sounded in the first book he was being pushy and trying to be the male, he had to drive, she was weak and brittle.. yada yada yada. It was actually about him wanting to make sure he could handle the confines of the car with her so near. He was testing HIS weakness. Seeing him put himself into the weaker role throughout the whole book and continually coment on her bravery and selflessness, it really makes you rethink all his actions in the first book. I really hope she decides, in the future, to continue with that book and the series in that manner.

[LiLStar]

Yeah the major switch from Bella as vulnerable to Bella as strong and powerful is symbolized on the breaking dawn cover. pawn in the background, queen in the front. She went from the weakest player on the board to the strongest.

[becoming]

That parody was *awesome* and exactly how I feel about the first book! Sooo funny.

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by LiLStar

lol, ironic with the username of fork though, eh? Breaking Dawn has plenty of sex. No play by plays of it, but they imply enough after the fact that you can fill in the blanks pretty well. Edward refused premarital sex because he was born in..1901 was it? And he was raised to be traditional in that sense. Bella was ready to rip his clothes off (and oh, did she try) by eclipse!

Shows how little she knows about history.... and that she's swallowing (no pun intended) the conservative line of "we're getting worse and worse, society's more immoral today than yesterday" crap.

I remember one story my grandpa told me (born in 1908) how he came into his room to find his girlfriend naked and lying on his bed. He didn't say what exactly he did at the time, but he asked his brother for advice and his brother said, "stay away, she's already having sex with someone else but wants to trap you" and he was right. She'd been taking care of a sick sister, and it soon came out that she was pregnant with her BIL's child.... yeah, the good ol' days of sexual morality!

In fact the 19-teens and 20's that he supposedly grew up in were full of sex, it was rebelling against a purity movement of the 1890's in a similar fashion to the way the 60's and 70's rebelled against the 1950's values.

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by Kristine233

Whiel I first thought Edward was being pretty over protective, by book 4 we see a total switch. Bella gets her way for everything. I want to think that Stephanie had that planned out from the get-go with her transformation.

You know, I almost find that more disturbing... take an overly-possessive, stalker-type man and if you stick with him long enough, he'll change.

I have a friend who has been with her guy for 23 years. They married 11 years after they started dating, and for YEARS he beat her, and their kids. She "knew" it was her mission from God to change him. By the time I met her he had mellowed some and didn't beat her as often, and had stopped beating the kids. She eventually changed more, and stopped dressing just as he told her to, and found her voice to say no to him in sexual situations he'd been forcing her into... and she's so proud that with God's help he has really changed. I'm happy for her, but... don't know that I'd encourage anyone else to try to take that route.



Back to why waste your time analyzing this book if you don't like it move on, etc.... I guess I see it as a disturbing trend in the youth and feminist movement. I didn't vote for Hilary, but some things about her campaign really bothered me. No one really said anything when a couple of young men held up signs that said, "Hilary, iron my shirts". She was criticized for being to cold, but mocked when she got teary. I don't see young women wanting to be considered feminists.

I was politically aware at a young age, and remember refusing to have my ears pierced despite pressure from both peers and my mother because I wouldn't mutilate my body for society's idea of beauty. I hated wearing dresses and delicates or high-heeled shoes... then later used tight-fitting clothes to turn guys into blathering idiots because it made me feel powerful. I was inspired by Sally Ride, Geraldine Ferraro, and Sandra Day O'Connor. Feminism was just so central to my experience growing up, and I feel like this book just takes all the values I had at that age and trashes them. I'm the grown-up now, I'm the one supposed to be pushing the envelope and fighting the good fight for those that follow... and it feels like those that follow could care less.

[carriebft]

I would recommend staying far away from most fantasy



No, actually, there are some strong female characters among the fleeing women and children in fantasy, but they are pretty small in number in comparison to the males.

I also disagree that this is a trend in youth books (though I know you are talking about youth in general, but if we are going to look at feminist in youth fiction, I think Twilight is the exception rather than the rule)

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by carriebft

I would recommend staying far away from most fantasy

I got to hear Ursula LeGuin speak a while ago and she was lamenting the same thing. She said or, there are characters that are women but act like men. (Okay, she said it way more eloquently than that, but ukwim.)

[St. Margaret]

Originally Posted by carriebft

I would recommend staying far away from most fantasy

I agree that this is true about a lot of fantasy, but the genre does in fact allow for some awesome strong female characters, who are also very womanly. So some of us are out there looking for more books like that, and when we read Twilight, we're bummed.

Once again I recommend Robin McKinnley (her new Chalice is great, and the Blue Sword, and etc) and Libba Bray (A Great and Terrible Beauty, Rebel Angels, The Sweet Far Thing.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by St. Margaret

I agree that this is true about a lot of fantasy, but the genre does in fact allow for some awesome strong female characters, who are also very womanly. So some of us are out there looking for more books like that, and when we read Twilight, we're bummed.

Once again I recommend Robin McKinnley (her new Chalice is great, and the Blue Sword, and etc) and Libba Bray (A Great and Terrible Beauty, Rebel Angels, The Sweet Far Thing.

The thing is, I think there is something else to the books that makes them this popular. They are just hard to put down. I read Great and Terrible Beauty a year ago, but I still didn't get Rebel Angels, it just didn't grab my attention the same way. Also, I didn't like McKinnley's writing : I tried one of her books and didn't get through the first 100 pages. Now, it is true that everyone's tastes are different, but I think the magic of Twilight is that it grabs the attention of the most reluctant readers, and that they can plow through 500 pages in one sitting. Very few books do that to you, and that's why Twilight is holing up there.