Circumcision ?'s

[julw3]

Okay, so now I am confused, sad,and mad all at the same time. There has been nobody tell me anything negative about having my boys circumcized. Both my boys are circumcized for these reasons- I didn't know any better, all the men in my family and husband's family are circumsized- so my husband and I just thought it natural, my husband said if the Jews did it in the Bible that is good enough for him, my mother worked in a nursing home and said how awful it was dealing with older men who had not been because they would get infections and the nurses have to help them out- my mother said it just becomes too dirty and hard to take care of and that it is essential to pull back the skin all the time when they are a baby and older to make sure there won't be any infection under there, and then I have heard more than a few instances where an older child or adult had to get it done and I guess it hurt a lot more then so the reasoning is to get it done when they wouldn't remember etc. So what would ya'll say against those arguments because we are adopting soon and we don't know if it is a boy and I need to be able to come against these reasonings if this boy is not to get circumsized- if it is a boy and the birthmom doesn't care.

[alegna]

Every last reason you've been told is bogus.

The rest of the world doesn't circumcise. Outside of religion, it's an American thing.

-Angela

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by julw3

Okay, so now I am confused, sad,and mad all at the same time. There has been nobody tell me anything negative about having my boys circumcized. Both my boys are circumcized for these reasons- I didn't know any better, all the men in my family and husband's family are circumsized- so my husband and I just thought it natural, my husband said if the Jews did it in the Bible that is good enough for him,

Well, the Bible also prescribes death for those who work on the sabbath, commit adultery, and for other reasons. There are equally silly biblical things we just don't do any more.

Originally Posted by julw3

my mother worked in a nursing home and said how awful it was dealing with older men who had not been because they would get infections and the nurses have to help them out- my mother said it just becomes too dirty and hard to take care of and

The funny thing about that is I never hear those problems coming from outside the US. I am sure it is difficult to keep those in nursing homes clean generally. I don't think it's an anatomy problem but rather a problem with the care rendered. I don't see this as a good reason to get circumcised but rather a good reason to improve the care of the elderly.

Originally Posted by julw3

that it is essential to pull back the skin all the time when they are a baby and older to make sure there won't be any infection under there,

No care of intact boys is easy. Just wipe what you see, like a finger. The foreskin may not retract until puberty and only he should be the one to ever retract it. Infections happen because care givers forcibly retract boys when they shouldn't. This doesn't necessarily mean with force though. Retraction can seem innocuous but if done before it is comfortable for the boy it will lead to problems.

Originally Posted by julw3

and then I have heard more than a few instances where an older child or adult had to get it done and I guess it hurt a lot more then so the reasoning is to get it done when they wouldn't remember etc.

It hurts the infant just as much but they aren't able to tell you that. As an adult he could get either a general or a local anesthetic and pretty strong pain killers after the fact. I don't think the notion that 'he won't remember it' is an ethical argument. Further, it is very rare for intact men to need a circumcision. An examination in Scandinavia found that only two tenths of one percent of men ever need a circumcision. The number in the US are higher I think because American doctors are not practiced in correct and conservative treatment of intact men.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Natur...cumcision.aspx

[kiara7]

Among all the other reasons not to, the biggest one for me is ethical/legal.

It is not my body, and I do not have the right to decide what stays and what goes. Parental rights stem only from parental responsibilities. There are no problems with foreskin if it's left alone. Parents don't have the right to consent to non-therapeutic treatments/surgeries for their kids. Parents don't own their children, and children have a right to have bodily integrity. All bits and pieces.

Mother Nature, God don't make mistakes.

[Dev]

Become Educated on why circumcising children (girls & boys) is unnecessary and harmful.

Go to the top half of the thread page and select the sticky of "Web Resources" which has many educational websites listed. Above Web Resources is a thread for parents who regret consenting to their son(s) circumcisions. Reading the threads will let you know you are not alone in feeling "confused, sad and mad."

My heart goes out to all those mama’s and papa’s who learned too late the adverse consequences of consenting to have their little boys circumcised. I commend them for standing up and spreading the word to end the practice and protect other boys. The regret in their voices is so sincere and painfully heartfelt. Their voices need to be heard to help end the still popular practice of amputating parts of male children’s penises in the 21st century. It is highly probable that in today’s young childrens’ lifetime, the U.S.A.’s 1996 Federal Female Genital Mutilation Act will be amended to protect the genital integrity rights of all little boys too. What a day it will be for rejoice as well as a reflection of sorrow and regret for the millions of males who have undergone genital cutting and unnecessary amputative surgeries without their consent.

[GoodMomma]

My son is circ'ed and we deeply regret it. I never gave it a thought...we assumed it had to be done. When he was about 9 months old I actually looked into it and found the truth. My advice.....look into it as much as possible! Also, I was a CNA in a nursing home for years before becoming a SAHM and mostly all the male residents were intact and I never ran into any problems with any of them. I worked in 2 different nursing homes in 2 states. It's the woman that were more prone to them. It depends on the care given. Why circ a child over something that might not happen 80 years from now?

[kiara7]

Also, I think everyone would agree that the AAP is as mainstream as one can get. Well, AAP no longer recommends routine newborn circumcision. A lot of people don't know that.

[julw3]

All of you are giving me a lot to think about. Before reading some things on this topic here I also assumed from what I heard that it would be sooo hard taking care of an intact baby boy- retracting all the time etc. and the responsibility of it - and now I know lack of knowledge about it was a big factor. I don't like when I have to go back and regret something- as I have tried so hard to research things from food to vaxing etc I only wish I would have explored this topic too- should have known it was wrong as just about everything else US Doctors learn and repeat to their patients for their babies and children are bogus.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by julw3

All of you are giving me a lot to think about. Before reading some things on this topic here I also assumed from what I heard that it would be sooo hard taking care of an intact baby boy- retracting all the time etc. and the responsibility of it - and now I know lack of knowledge about it was a big factor. I don't like when I have to go back and regret something- as I have tried so hard to research things from food to vaxing etc I only wish I would have explored this topic too- should have known it was wrong as just about everything else US Doctors learn and repeat to their patients for their babies and children are bogus.

Don't beat yourself up too much. Circumcision is a big hole in the training of American Docs and it's only in the last couple of years that good information got out to most Americans. The best thing to do is to just stop the practice for future children and talk to others about your regret. It's important that people know.

[thixle]

"when you know better, you do better" as cliche as it sounds, it's true.
Thanks to the internet, many many people are becoming more educated and aren't viewing their doctors as gods...

I don't know where you are, but in my neck of the woods, most moms and dads still think circ is as innocuous as cutting the umbilical cord after birth. I've recently spoken with a few moms who thought they couldn't be released from the hospital until their boys were circ'ed

Little by little, this "cultural tradition" is being debunked. It's not cleaner, or better, or anything beyond just plain wrong. Thank you for researching it now! Thank you for looking for answers! Thank you for questioning the practice!

Once you know more (and if you are like many of us here, once you start down the "rabbit hole" you'll want to see how much deeper it gets), please talk to others-- even if it seems they aren't listening You can't change the past, but you can influence the future.

[Mama Poot]

Originally Posted by julw3

Okay, so now I am confused, sad,and mad all at the same time. There has been nobody tell me anything negative about having my boys circumcized. Both my boys are circumcized for these reasons- I didn't know any better, all the men in my family and husband's family are circumsized- so my husband and I just thought it natural, my husband said if the Jews did it in the Bible that is good enough for him, my mother worked in a nursing home and said how awful it was dealing with older men who had not been because they would get infections and the nurses have to help them out- my mother said it just becomes too dirty and hard to take care of and that it is essential to pull back the skin all the time when they are a baby and older to make sure there won't be any infection under there, and then I have heard more than a few instances where an older child or adult had to get it done and I guess it hurt a lot more then so the reasoning is to get it done when they wouldn't remember etc. So what would ya'll say against those arguments because we are adopting soon and we don't know if it is a boy and I need to be able to come against these reasonings if this boy is not to get circumsized- if it is a boy and the birthmom doesn't care.

Is your husband Jewish? At the risk of getting this thread closed because we're not supposed to discuss religion here, I'll say if he's not then that argument is totally ridiculous. And if he considers himself to be a Christian, I can point him to multiple passages from the New Testament saying why circumcision is wrong and should not be practiced. PM me if you want to know more.

[Yulia_R]

Please take a look at this 20 minutes long video where medical doctors voice their opinion about the procedure http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30319025&hl=en

This is a very sick practice with a very sick history. Circumcision started in North America in the Puritan 1870s as a cure for masturbation. Masturbation was considered to be evil and sinful and was blamed for all sort of illnesses including blindness, paralysis and mental retardation. http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm .

As late as the 1970's medical books were claiming that desensitizing the boy was good medicine as well as good morality. The idea of that, touted openly by medical scholarship with notable pride, was carefully tucked away when the sexual revolution permitted sexual pleasure.

I'm so sorry you didn't find out the truth untill it was too late for your boys. You can, however, get educated on the subject and help other mothers to learn the truth about it just in time to spare their lil ones.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by julw3

I have heard more than a few instances where an older child or adult had to get it done

I believe the statistics show that more boys have to be recircumcised because of adheasions or botched jobs than ever need to have it done later. In Europe, I think the percentage of men that ever need to be cut later in life is under 1%. That number has to do with the fact that in Europe, they understand care of the foreskin, In the US, circumcision is recommended for redness, tight foreskin (in toddlers, where it's actually supposed to be that way) UTIs etc. Lack of knowledge and greed cause many many many unnecessary genital mutilations in the US from episiotomies to circumcisions.

The only reasons that a person would need to be circumcised would be Cancer, frostbite and gangrene. Anything else can be treated without amputation. Can you think of another body part that you would chop off because of a yeast infection? I can't either, but Dr's in the US would recommend amputation. Would you cut up a baby girl for a UTI? I didn't think so..but they do it to boys all the time.

[pigpokey]

Just want to repeat, while circumcising parents have to worry about cleaning the wound, vaseline, pulling the loose skin back so it doesn't adhere, etc.

Parents of intact babies have to do nothing special. The only care we need to give is to make sure that the foreskin is not retracted unnaturally by an ignorant adult, causing tears, scars, etc.

The lie that infant boys require special care is especially cruel because it's the cut boys who need the care.

Once the boys retract themselves, they only need to retract and swish every few baths. Hardly a burden.

An adult person can consent. They can also take pain pills and lie around clean (instead of in a soiled diaper) and the skin they want cut off is actually retractile and doesn't have to be torn free like tearing off a fingernail.

[Night_Nurse]

My dh is circumcised but my son is intact. The difference is a non-issue.
My son has never once been difficult to clean, not as an infant, not as an older child. As others have stated, as a baby, just wipe the outside of the penis downward, just like a finger or toe. You never need to retract or manipulate the foreskin at all to clean. Now that my son is fully retractable, he just rinses it off from time to time. I've said this before, although someone disputed this, you will not have any difficulty getting your son to clean his penis. Mine has always played with his in the bath. Other men I know always talked about masterbating in the shower as teens (if you want to know why they said this was their preferred method, pm me). So hands tend to gravitate towards genitals in the bath, he'll keep it clean, especially if he thinks anyone will be getting close to it!

I am a nurse and I've never once had one of those pesky, dirty, disease ridden intact penises that I've always "read" about. I work in OB now, but have worked in home health and in adult medical/surgical (and as a nurses aide in a nursing home years ago). I don't think intact older men are more prone to problems, nor do I think they are harder to keep clean from a nurse or aide's perspective. Maybe your mom was just uncomfortable/unsure about proper care, or maybe she did see an infection (most likely due to improper care), but that doesn't mean all boys should be circumcised. Again, in my 20 years in healthcare, I've never had a patient with a foreskin problem.

If doctors are silent about the circ issue or if they endorse it, chances are it's because they either don't want to offend any certain cultural or religious group or it's because they make profit from performing them. Any salesman will say his product is "the best", right? A doc making $ from circs isn't going to try to dissuade the parent. He'll say circ is the right thing to do and then smile as he collects the $200 - $400 from the parent or insurance. Always think of the underlying motive of the person giving you advice.

The last thing I want to say is adult circ is not more painful than infant circ. In infant circ, the foreskin is attached to the glans and must be physically separated. That hurts. Plus, babies are never given adequate pain relief before or after. In adult circ, the foreskin has naturally separated from the glans and therefore, physical trauma doesn't have to occur to loosen it. Grown men always receive anesthesia and nice pain pills for their recovery time. Plus, grown men aren't routinely peeing and pooping their pants. So they don't have that pain to contend with like a baby does (urine is very burning to a wound).

Don't worry too much about your other boys who are circed. You can't change the past. But please do keep your adopted baby intact if it is a boy. There's no good reason to but a child through unnecessary surgery that is strictly cosmetic.

Somebody probably already said this, but the American Academy of Pediatrics does not endorse routine infant circumcision (neither does other medical organizations).

Good luck to you and your new baby!

[2lilsweetfoxes]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

Once the boys retract themselves, they only need to retract and swish every few baths. Hardly a burden.

Exactly. Just try to keep a boy from playing with his bestest toy in the bath...

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by julw3

...they wouldn't remember...

Just wanted to comment on this one because this argument really drives my nuts. If you ask any shrink, they will tell you that the biggest thing in dealing with a childhood trauma is REMEMBERING it. When you realize, for example, that certain childhood abuse causes you certain problems you can start dealing with it. Remembering is a first step to healing. Therefore, so many people spend a lot of money on shrinks just to help them to look inside their childhood traumas, help them to remember.
Circ is a VERY traumatic event. Imagine if someone ties you up, puts you through the most agonizing pain and fear in your entire life and then injects you with a drug that will erase this event from your active memory. Do you REALLY think that just because you won't actively remember it, you body and your mind will react to certain things the same way it did before this tragic event took a place?!

[latinalonestar]

3 of the intact boys in my husbands family were circed at age 5 b/c some ignorant doctors didn't know that the foreskin doesn't have to be retractable by that time. Really the problem is the doctors that are not familiar with the development of the intact boy.

As far as nursing homes go... I visited my grandma at a nursing home for Christmas. She was left in her diaper all day for the two days that I was there. She had sat in her urine for the ENTIRE day! She said that it has been like that since she got there in JUNE! Finally I had a chat with the nurse, but I'm not that hopeful that her care will improve. Anyone who sits in a soiled diaper all day will get an infection, male or female, foreskin or no-foreskin. The woman next to my grandma has a bad infection. The foreskin would only need to be rinsed with water during bath-time. I don't think that is too much to ask a care provider. The problem isn't the foreskin, it is the lack of care!

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by latinalonestar

As far as nursing homes go... I visited my grandma at a nursing home for Christmas. She was left in her diaper all day for the two days that I was there. She had sat in her urine for the ENTIRE day!

OT- I'm sorry about your Grandma. You need to take this higher! Bedsores and lack of hygene care in a nursing home is usually only the tip of the iceberg in nursing homes. If this kind of thing is going on, there is most likely much worse going on as well.

There are resources available to file complaints with your (or her) state. You might even need to obtain an atty.

[Nandi]

Latina lonestar you are describing significant violations at that nursing home. I would be happy to research resources for you, because that is unacceptable behavior and is clearly neglect and elder abuse. Is this facility in the U.S.?
Here is the gov. page http://www.ncea.aoa.gov/ncearoot/Main_Site/index.aspx
hotline number
If you suspect elder abuse, neglect, or exploitation, call
1-800-677-1116.