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Quiverful, infertility and small families  

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
FTR, I never heard of the term quiverful until I came to MDC. I've periodically lurked on the threads over the years and now I have a question.

To give some background I wasn't against BC as young woman and it wasn't until dh and I got married that I decided I didn't want to use it anymore and we both agreed that we let God decide how many children we had ( even when I wasn't sure who exactly God was ). I still wasn't against BC completely, I just didn't feel it was right in my marriage. Long story short and many years later we don't have any live bio children together. Just adult dd from a prior relationship of mine. We did go to a fertility Dr ( RE ) and got tested without any specific reason found. In the end we chose not to pursue ART because I didn't feel it was morally right. Adoption is not an option because dh is adopted and the lack of knowing his biology is huge for him.

Ok so all the background covered down to the question. As someone on the outside; while I realize and identify with the conviction behind being quiverful, it seems like it's all large families. Or that large families are the
ideal and even in some cases the goal. I guess I'm wondering how do those that identify as quiverful yet aren't blessed with many children fit in? Do those not lucky enough to have many children just fall away? Is there a stigma associated with smaller families? I'm asking because I don't really know the full spectrum of spiritual groups and religions that practice quiverful so I'm not sure what other beliefs are generally found together with it and how that plays out with regards to infertility, sub fertility and smaller families and their place in the world and community.
post #2 of 19
Tough question. One that I can't give much of an answer to, because I haven't the infertility struggle. I can try to put myself in your place though, and I suspect you must feel like you don't have much of a voice, or much credibility with the QF crowd....those 15kid families must look at you and say, "Quiverful? Well, they must not be doing it right then!" Actually, I've seen a lot of that sort of judgement passed from MOBFs...even felt a teensy bit of it myself when one QF mama told me, teasingly, that I'd better get busy since my natural spacing (due to ebf) is apparently longer than hers. And I once heard a QF mom say of another, "She needs to wean that baby (baby was 2.5) so that she can get pregnant again, but I guess she's enjoying the break too much!"

All that to say that yep, there's competition and judgement out there, even QF circles. And IMNSHO, it stinks! : But we are all human and we all tend to this sort of pettiness. We just need to strive to be aware of it and resist it.

I have for several years had some rather unkind thoughts about my eldest sister. She's 39, been married 20 years to a man 10 years her senior. When she first got married, she wanted kids, he didn't. She thought he'd change his mind. Then about 5 years ago, we had a conversation in which she said, "I still wish that I could have been a mother, but I've left that dream behind, because there's no sense dwelling on it. I wouldn't trade my life as it is for all the kids in the world!"

Well, I immediately judged her in my mind....I decided that what she was really saying was, "yeah, it'd be fun to play mommy for awhile, but OTOH I'm enjoying the "things" that we can do with 2 incomes and no "encumberances", and really, I wouldn't quite know what to do if I did have a kid now!" I judged her as sweet but self-centered, and not really willing to make the trade-off that parenthood would demand. I just categorized her as Childless by Choice, a great aunt (the FUN one!) and totally dismissed her! I think I may have even mentioned her here on MDC, in past QF threads.

Then this past fall--just back in August--I was thoroughly humbled when I learned that she had quit birth control back in 1994!! For over a decade, they have done nothing to prevent a pregnancy, and she has even tried to plan around her ovulation, to a degree. No babies in 14 years of leaving it up to the Lord. : What a blow that knowledge was to my preconceived notions!! I probably don't have to tell you how small and wormish I felt.

She told me that they have never gone any further than her using a few ovulation kits (which indicated that she was ovulating) because they decided between them that fertility testing and interventions and all that was just too much....too much stress on them, on their marriage, too much potential for hurt feelings or blame-throwing or resentment. For them, they chose to focus on the blessings they've been granted, and trust that God has a purpose. I am SO HUMBLED by their faith!! And you know, maybe a teensy part of God's purpose in not opening my sister's womb is to teach me humility? Of course, I'm not so ego-centric as to think that is His whole purpose, but I don't need to know His purpose. And my sister has learned to find peace without knowing...that also is quite a lesson to me.

Anyway, that story is just to illustrate how easy it is to judge others when we don't know their struggle, even when we think we are above callous or shallow judgements. I've certainly resolved to be much more careful about the judgements that I make, and I hope that it will help me to avoid feeling morally superior to another person. Or at least maybe make me think twice next time I feel like I can so quickly and easily sum up and dismiss another person's struggle.

IMHO, what quiverful SHOULD be is simply one more way in which we express our faith in God. Not the only way by any means....not the most important way, or the best way. Just one more way to show the world (and to remind ourselves!!) that we truly and deeply believe that God is sovereign. That He is in control. That He truly knows best. That He knows us better than we know ourselves. That His purpose is perfect, even when we can't see or understand it. That His plan for our lives is far and away more wonderful than any plan we could imagine for ourselves!

It isn't--shouldn't be--about numbers. It's really not even about children except indirectly. What it's about is control, and grateful surrender. It's about keeping our eyes on the Captain of our ship, and realizing that the One who hung the stars is fully capable of directing our tiny little vessels. It's skydiving without a net, without a plan B tucked away somewhere. It's trusting that Someone you can't even see will catch you.

It's intoxicating, that utter faith!

And, IME, it's also quite fleeting....indeed (and I think my experience is not abnormal) it's really more a series of questions and doubts and fears and seeking God again and again, punctuated by brief but oh-so-incredible moments of clarity and confidence and perfect rightness. This is where I'm meant to be, even if I don't understand the full picture.

Although all that, from someone with 4 kids may not really speak to your heart....I could totally understand that. I think that QF people with few children (less than 5 for sure, although I think young families who are still growing--like mine--have an easier time in both realms) are largely invisible....they have no voice out in the world because they don't "look the part." And they don't have much of a voice within the movement, because the "wow factor" is missing. It's a unique perspective that i think the rest of us are missing, to our detriment. If you believe that children are a blessing from God, then it's easy to have faith when you have clear evidence of God's blessings in your life! It's harder to have faith when you see God blessing others around you with children, but your own blessings seem a bit paltry or unfulfilling by comparison.

I dunno, I think I'm rambling (blame it on the cold medicine!) but this is something that I've been thinking about a long time--since learning about my sister's silent struggle. I think we quite often miss the point as QFers. Every coin has two sides--on one side, QF means more kids than society deems "proper", and all the burden that goes along with swimming upstream. On the other side of the coin, QF means trusting God when children don't come, and living a quiet invisible pain that no one understands because gosh, you have one kid, and really that's "enough" isn't it? Most people who see you assume you planned it that way, you were smart and responsible and enlightened!

I kind of learned this lesson a different way with my second child. My first nursed until he was 3. He nursed through my pregnancy, drying up didn't slow him down at all! I tandem-nursed them for a full year, and then he self-weaned just after he turned three. I assumed my dd would be the same way, because I was an EBFer, a proponent of child-led weaning!! And I was humbly reminded by my daughter--at 16 months--that child-led weaning is a coin with 2 sides, also, and sometimes the child leads the mother sooner than she would wish! Every coin has two sides, and each side is equally important, equally valid, equally real. The two sides together are balanced. If you ignore one side, you don't have that balance.

Sheesh. Sorry for the novel. I'm a dork--just skim through. Prolly only a third of all that makes any sense anyway! :
post #3 of 19
There are many who assume that QF equals many children, but it is not necessarily true. QF, as per MY understanding and belief is just a simple belief that we should trust God totally and completely, and that that includes fertility matters. I know MANY QF families that are small, and some with no children at all, they just tend to blend in more with society, whereas large families stand out like a sore thumb.

I believe that trusting God for you entire life means trusting Him with your fertility as well. This is acted out when we choose to allow Him complete comtrol over the size of our family. So, we don't TNTC, we also don't TTC. That means no BC, no NFP, no IVF, no anything that would take the decision away from God and put it into our hands. We live a natural life, DH and I having relations when they naturally do, and accepting when God chooses to bless us with a new life to care for.

I am incredibly fertile, but not all QF couples are.

Sounds like you fit right in!
post #4 of 19
I'm curious about this topic too... not just because of infertility (which we struggled with also), but what about when miscarriage comes into the fold... I have always wanted a big family, and would have welcomed a quiverfull of children. It would have been my complete joy. My oldest has special needs and 2 of my babies were miscarried - one early - one at the beginning of the second trimester. Its not so much that I want to fit in with the quiverfull folks, because for me its not about *fitting in* - its about having that desire for a family but knowing that only 1 of 4 pregnancies has produced a strong, healthy child. Only 2 of 4 are living. That's a side of infertility that often gets overlooked, especially in QF circles (at least the brief interludes I've spent conversing in them - and granted - its not been a lot of exposure for me). The thing is that its something I want, and would love, but its not happening, and worse - I get pregnant and can't hold the pregnancy to term... its very disheartening... (and again- that's not to say anything about QF people - its just my perspective from where I'm at, what I'm dealing with and what I dream of)
post #5 of 19
First of all to all the Mamas struggling here.

I really struggle with the notion that QF means have as many babies as you possibly can and see how big your family can get. I actually don't see it from most of the QF people I know but I have heard it expressed a lot by non-QF people as their view of what we (as QF minded people) are aiming for.

My partner and I are QF. We made that decision before we got married. We have a beautiful little boy and we are expecting another little one next month. Our son was conceived before we were together and my partner has adopted him as his own. I have felt that leaving my fertility up to God was the right thing to do for my whole reproductive life except for a very brief window.

What that story doesn't show is the babies that didn't stay... 4 pregnancy losses (5 babies, one was twins) before DS was concieved, and then once DP and I were together and committed to each other we had 2 more pregnancy losses before concieving this baby. 7 babies that didn't get to stay here on earth with us.

I am young. Not so young that people are surprised by me having two children, but very young when I say I have had 8 pregnancies. People ask how many children we are planning on having and we always say as many as the Lord intends us to have. People are usually shocked/surprised at this. "But you could have 18 children!" And yes, we could... and if we do that is an amazing gift and blessing. After this pregnancy my body may never carry to term again and we may have only two earthside with us, and they are both a blessing to us and we are truly grateful.

We will leave it up to God. That doesn't mean it's always easy to trust and believe that it is what is meant to be, but it is our goal and where with prayer we are headed at all times.

Quiverful is a mindset. Noone is more or less so based on their family size. You very much so fit in and I'm sorry if anyone has ever made you feel otherwise.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Sarah, thank you what a beautiful post. :

I know the thread is kind of confusing. At this point, in my mid 40s with a grown child and many years of married life without BC and no more children I am not at a place where I fit in with those that are still expecting more children, or even have littles. So I'm not really looking to join the tribe as it were. I'm in the transition of motherhood where your kids all are grown up now and I guess I'm just trying to make sense of that part of my life.

greenmamato2 : dh and my only time getting pregnant together ended in MC, there just are no words for how that feels.

This topic has been coming up in spiritual reading I've been doing lately about family planning and trusting God and has left me trying to make sense of it all. I was raised and have lived in a culture where it's all about going out and getting what you want. If things aren;t going the way you planned you do anything and everything to make it happen. People assume that not using ART means you didn't want more children as much as they did. The concept of acceptance isn't acceptable ( pun not intended but ok kinda funny). IMO we have dehumanized fertility to the point that it's a commodity.
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
I just want to be clear that this thread is not a response to the QF threads in that no one has personally made me feel bad or unwelcome or anything, I've never posted on them and I've only occasionally lurked to try and understand what QF was when I first read it here, since I never knew anyone IRL that used the term. I used the term quiverful in the title because as I've read it became clear that it describes what dh and I decided over 15 years ago about our fertility. And I thought that those that identify as QF could best help me figure out how infertility and being QF effects each other. Eh I can't seem to find the right words.
post #8 of 19
Every definition of QF I have seen has emphasized the Lordship of God over our fertility, rather than the actual number.

I think there sometimes tends to be an overemphasis on large families simply because the culture at large tends to emphasize smaller families as "responsible". Large families are denegrated by society and even inside the church, sadly. I have only three kids but I will argue till I'm blue in the face that a very large family is a blessing from God because I believe it is. I will still believe it even if my three boys are the only bio kids God gives me. :

I tend to be less fertile than many other QF women. Right now my thoughts are not along the lines of..."Am I going to end up with 18?" but "Am I ever going to have another?".

However, if we only ever have 3, I still trust that God knows best for us. Children are a blessing, but blessings are not distributed based on worthiness. If I can trust that God knows best in giving me 15 children, I can also trust that He knows best in giving me a smaller family.

I still struggle at times with it but I really, really love the freedom and contentment this belief has brought me.
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
FTR, I never heard of the term quiverful until I came to MDC. I've periodically lurked on the threads over the years and now I have a question.

To give some background I wasn't against BC as young woman and it wasn't until dh and I got married that I decided I didn't want to use it anymore and we both agreed that we let God decide how many children we had ( even when I wasn't sure who exactly God was ). I still wasn't against BC completely, I just didn't feel it was right in my marriage. Long story short and many years later we don't have any live bio children together. Just adult dd from a prior relationship of mine. We did go to a fertility Dr ( RE ) and got tested without any specific reason found. In the end we chose not to pursue ART because I didn't feel it was morally right. Adoption is not an option because dh is adopted and the lack of knowing his biology is huge for him.

Ok so all the background covered down to the question. As someone on the outside; while I realize and identify with the conviction behind being quiverful, it seems like it's all large families. Or that large families are the
ideal and even in some cases the goal. I guess I'm wondering how do those that identify as quiverful yet aren't blessed with many children fit in? Do those not lucky enough to have many children just fall away? Is there a stigma associated with smaller families? I'm asking because I don't really know the full spectrum of spiritual groups and religions that practice quiverful so I'm not sure what other beliefs are generally found together with it and how that plays out with regards to infertility, sub fertility and smaller families and their place in the world and community.
dp and I are facing possible IF issues and have chosen not to pursue ART if we never get pg.
post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post
Every definition of QF I have seen has emphasized the Lordship of God over our fertility, rather than the actual number.
yes, exactly. It's not about how many kids at all... it's about leaving it ALL up to the Lord. There are likely many QF families with no or few kids... but perhaps your first thought isn't that they are QF. on the other hand I know some people who aimed for a high number but are not QF. (I know a family with 8 kids, but aren't QF... they are "done")

right now I am on our third kid. nobody would think "oh she is QF!" but i am... it's a heart matter. and honestly it's hard for a host of reasons. some of us get very sick during pregnancy, some of us habitually miscarry, some are infertile. sadly, being QF doesn't always end in big happy families. they are just as susceptible to the hard facts of life as any other family is.


a few of us have shared our stores of struggling in other QF threads... perhaps you could get a chance to read them over. you might be surprised how differing the families actually are.
post #11 of 19
Ard...you are just as quiverful as I am

It is not about numbers of children....it is about a submissive heart that loves God and chooses His will above our own.
post #12 of 19
The term "quiverfull" itself confuses things for people who are not familiar with this belief IMO. I have read some Christians call this way of living, "God control" (as opposed to birth control) and in my mind it seems more fitting.

I should not be surprised to read that there are quiverful folks out there who are competitive and judgemental about the number of kids a family has because there are judgemental people in all circles. However, how can they claim to believe that it is God who "opens and closes the womb" and at the same time, give a hard time to couples that have few or no kids?

I am a Christian, not quiverful exactly (I am struggling as to what to do after this baby is born because this is my 8th pregnancy and it is becoming harder and harder), but I have a deep admiration for the faith of quiverfull couples.
post #13 of 19
I will say, I have been judged by a QF family, *once*.

I think it was their assumption that because they concieved frequently (every year!) every QF couple did, and if they didn't, they were preventing in some way. The husband of this couple was our pastor at the time (no longer!), and in his zeal for QF, he questioned the practice of extended breastfeeding. They were always asking when we were going to have our next one, and when we said "In God's time", their response was "Well, you have to do your part too!". Lovely thing to say in the foyer of a church in front of all our friends. :
I got the feeling that they were disappointed that we weren't having a baby every year to support them. They must have concluded that we were lying or something.

Interestingly enough, they became "QF" because of a prophecy about having two more children. When they got pregnant with their third baby after the sterilization reversal, they were distinctly, obviously unhappily surprised.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelBee View Post
It is not about numbers of children....it is about a submissive heart that loves God and chooses His will above our own.
This is just beautiful. I know Catholic families just like this who don't identify themselves as QF, but subscribe to this theory.
post #15 of 19
I'm jewish, but I've decided to let G-d completely control my womb. We are letting this happen, but also doing some natural things to increase the chances of a baby- life vitamins- not fertility treatments. although I did do some fertility treatment- a surgery, in the past, and I prayed very hard about that, and G-d really did lead me there.

Now after that surgery we're struggling with infertilty. And a part of me wants to go do fertility treatments, but really what is right for us is to trust G-d. Even if I never have a living child. I think for anyone IF is a test of faith, but especially for those who have so much faith- who've put the planning of their family in G-d's hands.

For me I have to just believe that G-d has a plan for us, and although we don't know it, we have to just believe.

I don't really know a "quiverful" comunity in real life, but I've found those online to be immensly supportive and accepting.
post #16 of 19
Big, big (((HUGS))) to the mamas who are struggling!

I have to 100% agree with the statement that quiverfull is not about how many kids but about trusting God!
post #17 of 19
I wanted to share this note from a fellow blogger.
http://graceinbloom.blogspot.com/200...says-wait.html
It so convicted me in regards to my struggle with wanting children (I have not been able to carry a pregnancy through).
Paula
post #18 of 19
I'll weigh in briefly, though pretty much everything I will say has been said. I've never had a miscarriage; I just don't get pregnant easily. DS was 4 months old when DH and I got married. He isn't DH's biological child, but he has been adopted. We used bc for a while after we got married, but quit soon after. I so strongly desired to have my husband's child. We tried for 2 1/2 years before conceiving our DD (due in March) and during that time I would look at other people who seemed to get pregnant so easily and feel sorry for myself. Especially people who seemed to not really care about their kids, people on drugs, etc. It was sometime during those long, excruciating months, when I wouldn't even have periods (I have gone up to 9 months w/o one) when God spoke to our hearts to let Him be in control. We decided then that even if we only ever had our one son, that that would be okay. We would still love and trust God and know that He knows what is best for us. We still feel that way. Whether we only have the 2, whether something awful happens and we still only have our son, or whether we end up with 18. We consider ourselves to be Quiverful, because that's where our heart is - to trust God with every aspect of our lives. This is just one of the more obvious areas. I hope I'm not rambling, and that what I've said makes sense. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'm on your side, sister.
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaJoAnne View Post
I wanted to share this note from a fellow blogger.
http://graceinbloom.blogspot.com/200...says-wait.html
It so convicted me in regards to my struggle with wanting children (I have not been able to carry a pregnancy through).
Paula
Thanks for that link! It was wonderful!
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