Is this Umar the same as Umayr bin 'Adiy l-Khatmi? Because in the story I just posted, he killed a woman and her unborn child because she questioned Muhammed in a poem.
I don't know if its the same guy because the spelling is a bit different.
Also, want to say that I'm wondering if I should leave this thread be since I've pretty much said my piece. I'm interested in all your replies, but I feel kind of yucky every time I post because while I don't know you mamas in real life I'm guessing you are very similar in belief to my dear Palestinian friend who I respect deeply. I don't mention all these things to call you out or anything, but merely because of what I stated before about how I feel its important that these stories are brought to light as I feel it impacts our world today. But not because I want to make anyone feel insulted or hurt about their beliefs. Its a fine line to walk. I'm just fairly convinced that regardless, criticism of one's faith is usually taken as hurtful. Does that make sense? Not sure how to keep it from being that.
First of all, thank you for your sensitivity. You are right, it is a fine line, and I wont tell you that it does not stir up some emotion when the things you love seem to be attacked. At the same time i am happy that you voice you concern and ask questions- I just ask that you do so with an open mind and with the intention of understanding. At some point we must agree to disagree, but for now, I do want to give you an honest answer to the questions you ask and the concerns that you have.
I think that too many times as Muslims we feel like we need to apologize for our beliefs. There are some things in Islam that one could look at and say "that is not peaceful"... and especially when taken out of context. The US called for Saddam Hussein to be hung- that is not "peaceful", but nobody objects to it because we see the whole picture and we see the way he oppressed his people. Nobody mourns the death of Hitler- despite the fact that murder is not "peaceful", he himself was not a peaceful man, and society as a whole was better without him. I dont know that these are the best examples, but the point that i am trying to make is that things need to be taken in context.
Like I said before, nowhere in Islamic history did the Muslims ever run around just killing people because they were non-Muslim. It was never understood this way. The places in the Qu'ran that talk about the killing of infedels is refering to a very specific group of people who were not killed because they were non-Muslim, but they were brutalizing, torturing, beating, burning and oppressing the Muslims. I believe that the Muslims who are viewed as terrorists are not trying to irraticate all non-Muslims from the face of the Earth, but rather to fight against what they believe is unjust foriegn policy. Islam does not allow the killing of women, children and non-combatants, so obviously the acts of 9-11 were not condoned by Islam. As a matter of fact, when the Muslims went to fight in one of the most major battles (the battle of Badr), the prophet even forbade them from tromping over the ant hills.
I do want to acknowledge something that i am sure you will disagree with...
Islam does teach that under Islamic rule, there are 3 choices:
1.to accept Islam
2.to remain practicing your OWN non-Islamic faith, but pay a tax to the government (called jiziyah)
I will point out that the jiziyah is LESS than what the Muslims are required to pay of Zakat (manditory charity).
Also, in reading your previous posts, I see you have had some expirience with what many mistake as "Muslim" culture. The fact is that there is NOWHERE in Islamic text that condone "honor killings"... the fact that this is practiced in some parts of the world where Muslims reside only attests to the fact that many Muslims are iggnorant of their own religion. Islam does consider adultery to be a crime punishable by death under the condition that there were 4 witnesses to the act. This is because of the tradgic effects adultery had on children and familys so the death penalty for such act is suppossed to act as a deterant.
The cases you mentioned that the girls were killed because they did not want to marry the person the parents arranged, is exact OPPOSITE of what Islam teaches. Women in Islam have the right to refuse marriage to anyone and for any reason. A marriage without the consent of the girl is considered to be an invalid marriage. In fact, this is one of the practices that Islam abolished (the giving away of women to whoever the parents wanted). Islam required that the permission of the women be given. The fact that the practice of honor killings are done is aweful but has nothing to do with Islam just because it is done by Muslims.
Also, you said something about men throwing you out of a place because you were a woman. Please read about the time of the prophet Muhammad and you will not find a time that a women was ever thrown out or disrespected in this way. In fact, women would often come and ask questions, make complaints, etc. They were free members of society. The solution to these problems is not to steer people away from Islam, but rather to educate Muslim who are tainted by their own non-Islamic cultures, on their own religion.
You mentioned that the area in which you lived was full of Turkish women who would lift their sons to look outside but they themselves were not allowed to. Again, nowhere will you find this in islamic doctrine. Women were allowed to go about their lives freely. I have never met a Muslim, of any sort, who was not allowed to go outside , much less look out her window. Seems absurd.
You asked if Umar and Umayr were the same people- no they are not. I am talking about a man by the name of Umar bin al-Khattab. But the point of the story was to demonstrate that what many think of as an oppresive wife beating religion is not that at all.
You also asked if men were stronger than women, why would he beat her lightly?... i do not believe that a "strong" man would! Which is why the prophet Muhammad and his companions never beat their wives. Please produce for me ONE story in which the prophet or his companions ever beat their wives. it never happened.
In regards to "obidience"- this is not in regards to the husbands wishes, but rather in regards to religious teachings. As Muslim women, we are not required to "obey" our husbands every command, but we are required to obey and submit to the teachings of islam (which includes prayer, fasting, giving charity, etc.) The husband is the head of the home and it is responsibility to see that the family is in the best spiritual condition. No, it does not mean beat her if she does not pray, etc... i am just pointing out that this "obidience" is often misunderstood as obidience to the husbands every wish and this is not the case.
I had a friend- non Muslim- she had a rough life. She got married and had a son. For some reason, she resented this child and would often say to his face how much she hated him. Her husband was an extremely patient man and loved her and his son very much but he hated the way she acted towards the boy. He tried everything to get her to change her attitude, counsling, whatever... nothing worked. One day in a big fight he grabbed her arm very hard and spoke right in her face. he told her never to mistreat the son again. She herself told me this is what changed her. I dont know why... but this is what I think of when I hear this verse in Qu'ran. Islamically, it is not allowed to hit ANYONE in the face and it is not allowed to ever leave a mark on a person. In my opinion, if you dont leave a mark its not really a "beating"... this is the only thing I think of to understand what it might be talking about, but again, not something that was ever practiced by Muhammad or his companions, or by any Muslim i have ever known - and our group of friends are very religious and conservative.
You asked if a Muslim can choose a life other than complete obedience and dependency. The answer is 1. she is not required to be completely obedient
and 2. she is free to do as she wishes in regards to work and education. The first wife of Muhammad was a business women and as a matter of fact HE worked for HER. Aisha was an Islamic scholar. Fatima was a mother and teacher. Muslim women are encouraged to be educated as we see by the examples of the women in the time of Muhammad, but their money is theirs and they are not required to use it for their own necessities. If they choose to, that is also their decision.
There are MANYYYY beautiful stories about the prophet and his wives and his kindness towards non-Muslims. I will gather them and post them in the next day. We named our son Muhammad because when I first started reading about the prophet i fell in love with his character. I hoped my son would have the same character as him. I am excited to share these stories with you so stay tuned
I am sure i missed a question somewhere, so let me know and I will answer it. My little one is sleeping and it is 1:30am here so i must go now.
For what it is worth, we are very practicing Muslims with strong beliefs. You may not agree with all of them, and we may not agree with all of yours, but we are a good family, we love each other, I have a great hubby who is my best friend in the world, and son who we both love to pieces... my hubby and i are BOTH educated. We have the same every day challenges as everyone else... and it make me sad that so many people label our family because my husband looks like some of the "bad guys" you see on TV with his long beard and me with my head scarf. I am just so tired of having to prove to people that I am NOT oppressed and that i CHOOSE this way of live and LOVE IT! I feel like if someone were to spend one day in my shoes, they would see that I am quite happy, my hubby is soft hearted and our friends are good people. Islam IS the fastest growing religion in the world, and I know that people would not be running to a religion that oppressed women and encouraged the killing of innocent people... I give people more credit than that! Dont you think that if so many people are becoming Muslim but you still view it as oppressive, that maybe YOU are missing something? Just a thought.