sleep is such a problem for my oldest son

[FireWithin]

My oldest has always fought sleep, no matter what. He is scared to sleep. He can't/refuses to recognize sleepy signs in his body. If he is sleeping with someone, he can sleep through the night without a problem. He is unable to do so if he is by himself. I do not expect him to be able to sleep by himself at this time. It is just the getting to sleep part.

I have been thinking about natural melatonin production, and allergies. is it possible that gut inflammation can influence your body's ability to produce adequate melatonin? Is that part of the problem? If he is actually low in melatonin can anything help it?

I was giving him about 1 tbl honey at night. I don't think it helped him. But, he also needed to sleep with a small night light, so that might be what prevented him.
We give him magnesium at night and have been for a couple of months.
It is not unusual for me to forget a couple of times a week.
Starting yesterday I started giving him Aspen flower essence hoping it would help calm him for transition to sleep. I also have mimulus, but I thought Aspen was a better match.
I used to give him a high quality camomile tincture before bed, but that didn't help really.

ok I am ashamed to say that we've begun to give him melatonin (1 mg), and it is working a bit. He still struggles, but less so now. We are hoping if it helps him feel sleepy that it will help him get into the habit of accepting transitioning to sleep. I don't want to mess him up with melatonin though.

Finally, we are taking corn out of his diet, but it is still new and we still are having slip ups. Maybe when it is consistently out, he will get better????

So: I would like to talk about synthetic melatonin, how allergies affect natural production of melatonin, other things we can do to help him.

[tanyalynn]

I give both the kids melatonin (1mg, though I've considered whether my son needs 1.5mg) and I take it as well (I take a lot, right now it's up to 8mg each night). I am satisfied with it, I expect to keep giving it at least for another year (it's been 1.5yrs now). For us, I know it's due to the kids' (and my) toxic load. To be honest, I'm not sure if it's that our natural melatonin production is in adequate, or if it's being used up too fast, since melatonin has some anti-oxidant properties.

Interesting to note, re: magnesium--I've been supplementing magnesium for my daughter (my oldest) even longer than melatonin, since she was under 2yo I think (she just turned 5) and even now, if I don't give it, she has trouble falling asleep. I tried fiddling with her dose last week, and was surprised this was the case. I'm not completely sure what this means--I know her gut isn't as good as my son's, so is this an absorption issue (and in general is she not absorbing her nutrients all that great?) or is it just that her physiology is different (her body seems to work different than me and my son) and she really needs so much more than us? No answer yet there.

As for allergies--I think part of the reason we've got allergy issues is the things are awry in our bodies due to the toxic load. But, that said, even if my daughter didn't get such a toxic load from me, I think it would really take a lot of things being right in terms of nutrition and good gut health for her to be able to digest gluten well. But my son's chocolate and cashew allergies, and the vomiting-from-milk (vs something milder) I think are due to our toxic load.

Anyway, not saying everyone with allergies has toxic load stuff. And I don't know other reasons for melatonin supplementation to help with sleep besides toxic load because my reading has been focused on our issues, but there have got to be other reasons. Oops, need to run bath!

[FireWithin]

Thank you for responding.
I think I need to learn about natural melatonin production and see if it could be related to our allergies, which I do not think is toxic load.
Are you concerned about their/your pineal gland? or do you think that it is already compromised, so you need to support it in this way?

[FireWithin]

ok I just got off of wikepedia and it said that the pineal gland is a midline structure.

My boys and I have midline issues, including but not limited to tongue tie. Could his poor sleep, and also mine (I've also always had a problem with sleep, though removing caffeine has greatly improved the problem) be related to our midline issues?

off to do more research.

[kjbrown92]

My DS would take a couple hours to fall asleep before we found all his food triggers. After we took them ALL out completely, he started falling asleep within 10-15 minutes of going to bed. Also at night he's very needy if he's had any of the foods (like eggs). I've never given him any supplements to help him sleep. I use Gripe Water when he's had a food trigger though (either accidentally or when I'm challenging him) and then he goes back to sleep, but I think it's because it tends to the stomach issues.

Is corn just a guess? or a suspect? Even with a food journal I wouldn't have come up with the foods that were triggering him because they were foods he was having pretty much every day.

[Chinese Pistache]

OP, are you guys gf? I have no idea about the melatonin, but not sleeping could be a sensory issue, which is sometimes helped by gfcf diets (I think you guys are already dairy-free, no?)

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo

Are you concerned about their/your pineal gland? or do you think that it is already compromised, so you need to support it in this way?

I'm not really concerned, no. I see it as something of a band-aid. Melatonin isn't directly fixing our problems, but it's helpful in the immediate sense that we all sleep well, and I think it's subtly helpful in the sense that it has anti-oxidant functions and we all (me and the kids, I mean) have relatively high levels of oxidative stress. I can see the stress in my thyroid and adrenals as well, and I'm doing things to support both, but right now I think I just need to do more support and heal more, and then everything will be better than new.

I fully anticipate that within 6 months I'll be able to go back to a lower dose (I started out at 3mg, then it's bumped up to 5 and now 8 since I got my fillings out and I'm chelating) because I'm clearly over the hump--I'm definitely on the getting-better side of things. For the kids, I'm sure I'll be able to gradually wean them off, but I think it should be a gradual process and right now I'm not really clear on when that will be. This past year has had some unexpected bumps in the road, so things are going slower than I'd anticipated with them.

Interesting about the pineal gland being a midline structure. I had no idea. That begs the question--Panserbjorne's had a lot of good results with midline stuff with homeopathy and CST.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

Interesting about the pineal gland being a midline structure. I had no idea. That begs the question--Panserbjorne's had a lot of good results with midline stuff with homeopathy and CST.

Only with optimizing what was already compromised. I wouldn't actively contribute to damage and look to homeopathy or CST to fix it, if that makes sense. My kids have midline defects as a result of my lack of ability to assimilate nutrients which was due to undiagnosed CD. That wont' be the case for everyone, obviously. You can have impaired nutrition for a variety of reasons. Midline defects in general mean that nutrients weren't assimilated in pregnancy...what the reason is doesn't really matter after the babe is born. Well, I guess you could argue it does so long as they are breastfeeding!

I guess what I'm saying is I would use homeopathy to help with the sleep issues (and also look at yeast, allergies and metals where appropriate.) Does that make sense? I'm really tired.

[Panserbjorne]

okay...I'm hoping that didn't sound snarky. What I mean to say is that there are multiple ways of approaching any situation and none are wrong. In *my* view I wouldn't do something that *I* believed to be suppressive and then have to repair the damage down the road. I would just go to something *I* knew or thought to be effective from go. In my paradigm that thing is homeopathy.

It's like being depressed and taking meds. Nothing wrong with it and it's very common. IF you feel you need to do it, noone would stand in your way. However once you got to a baseline and pursued homeopathic treatment it's going to take alot longer to unwind the case and it's going to be harder to get the whole picture. Now, if you were a danger to yourself or to others or didnt' know about alternative treatments clearly you did what you needed to do.

I was in that space and remember quite vividly begging my homeopath for meds, which he DID prescribe. I didn't end up needing them. He asked for some time and I chose to give it all the while having the meds in my house should I need them. I didn't. The remedy worked quickly (along with nutritional supplements) and I haven't had issues with depression since. However had I taken the meds he still would have treated me...it just may have taken a few years to wean down, balance and then heal.

I see this in a similar light. That doesn't mean I'm right! It means that what makes sense for me.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

okay...I'm hoping that didn't sound snarky. What I mean to say is that there are multiple ways of approaching any situation and none are wrong. In *my* view I wouldn't do something that *I* believed to be suppressive and then have to repair the damage down the road. I would just go to something *I* knew or thought to be effective from go. In my paradigm that thing is homeopathy.

Didn't sound snarky, I'm just confused. Do you see melatonin as suppressive? Is it? I've been seeing it as a crutch--helpful to get through life now, not really curative by itself, but not as a hindrance in the path to getting healthy. Am I missing something? Separate from the not using homeopathy now thing.

[Panserbjorne]

I just lost 3 replies so bear with me!

The long and short of it from my perspective is that by supplementing with melatonin you are giving the pineal gland the message that it doesn't need to work and so it will slowly taper off. It can also disrupt the hypothalamus.

It has been shown in some studies to be contraindicated for individuals with autoimmune dysfunction. This is not to say that melatonin is damaging for them, but that supplementation can be damaging. Interestingly enough it's synthesized in two places: the pineal gland and the gut. Not suprising that individuals with a melatonin issue would also have autoimmune issues.

I would be quicker to use precursors so that the GI tract and pineal gland still needed to work. I would not be opposed to using honey too! Of course, homeopathy is also high up there. Shocking, right? This too is an issue of epigenetics as it appears that low melatonin levels (related to a specific gene) is hereditary.

I know it's widely used for a variety of conditions and people seem to have luck with it. As you know, I'm just not a huge fan of the band aid approach. Of course I have a very different situation so the two can't really be compared.

[WuWei]

Wheat issues disturb sleep here.

Turkey and tryptophan foods, including kefir help with sleep.

We've used just a very minimal dose of melatonin on a very rare occasion, if we have something important the next day and need to wind down early. The liquid dose provides a dropper. And we only use like 6 drops. A whole dropper is 1mg. Apparently, 'less is more', from my understanding. And the issues with long term use, do concern me.

Also, Bach Flower remedies, such as Rescue Sleep help a lot of folks to relax and doze off. http://www.bachrescuesleep.com/

And a weighted blanket really helped ds to relax in the bed and just fall asleep. http://www.weightedblanket.net/

A pleasurable, engaged night-time routine helps too, with many sleep associations: pjs, vitamins, Spry gum, teeth brushing, familiar video with dada laying down with him and I sing his lullaby, cat and lovey in the bed, weighted blanket, etc.

But, wheat and he is wiggly and *can not rest*. Not an issue on the homeopathy, generally though. So, classical homeopathy certainly helped with night wakening. But, wheat had the most significant effect.


Pat

[Panserbjorne]

indeed less is DEFINITELY more in this one. Agreed that food allergies will most certainly disturb sleep! I do well with a weighted blanket as well.

[FireWithin]

Wow - so much info and so much to think about
First, thanks for no lectures about us not being firm enough, not being gentle enough, not being relaxing enough, all that stuff. We work hard on making it positive and relaxing. It is relaxing until it is time to turn off the light.
WuWei I will talk to DH about a weighted blanket. DS definately has sensory issues, which you have discussed with me before. Maybe it is worth considering.

PB - I was trying to figure out if melatonin is partially created in the gut and had a feeling that it might be thinking that it is one reason why he has always struggled.
I was concerned about the pineal gland and the message you are sending it, encouraging reduced production.
epigenetics - my mom (and I) have always struggled with sleep. She has been taking benedryl to sleep every night for at least 25 years. She is a nurse and learned about it when they basically drugged their geriatric patients to sleep decades ago.
PB - you didn't sound snarky - more straightforward than usual, but not snarky.
Rescue sleep does not work for us.
I am hoping Aspen will help with sleep related fears.

He has been dairy, soy (except for Bragg's, soy oil, soy lecithin) gluten, beef free for 2 years. This did not help. We recently learned he is also allergic to corn and we are/have taken it out. We are still on a learning curve for that. I am hoping with that removal it will help us. Maybe we will finally be at a true baseline.

We had no idea that corn was an issue until a patch test done to my other son showed his high reactivity to corn (still marks on his back from two months ago). Once we lowered my older son's corn intake we saw that it was a problem. Corn is in everything and we keep on slipping up - especially in the area of supplementation.

We are going to do the homeopathy approach. I am close to being ready to call a homeopath (I am trying to save some money). I just need a recommendation. I know there are some good ones in the Boston area. Panserbjorne- you mentioned some before. I am going to try to find a past response from you, but if you are reading this - could you give me a recommendation???? please. I don't want to lost this momentum.

[Panserbjorne]

I will find the names and repost them.

I can't imagine why you would be lectured! This is a totally common age for him to be having these issues. Yes, there are things you can do to ease things for him but this is not outside the range of normal. Yes, food allergies can contribute but really I'm not terribly shocked. 5 year olds do tend to have all kinds of insecurities going on! IMO the best thing we can do as parents is support, honor and love them through it.

I would suggest (if it feels right to you) adding walnut for the transition into sleep.

One thing you may want to reconsider is the Braggs. It has MSG in it which can be a huge trigger for some. It may not be an issue...but it is an excitotoxin so as you pursue all these angles that is just one that stands out to me. Of course if he has it once a month you can't pin daily (or nightly!) issues on it. Just something to ponder.

All this healing will ultimately address the sensory issues. Until that happens though a weighted blanket might be really useful!

[LauraLoo]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what my ds' sleep issues were this past summer, and we successfully treated it by simply adding a magnesium supplement. But during this time, I spent a lot of time doing research.....so I'll share what I've got. Maybe it will help you.

Have you seen "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross? I thought this was a good book in helping me figure out exactly what "moods" (beyond the sleep issues) that my ds was having. It also has very good information about specific amino acids and how they help. I wouldn't buy it, but get it from your library.

http://www.amazon.com/Mood-Cure-4-St...1209218&sr=8-1


While the below focuses on deficiencies and neuro developmental delays, I thought there was a lot of good information on what nutrients, amino acids, etc. provide what type of benefit, and conversely, what a deficiency does.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Diet-and-Neu...pmental-Delays

http://mindd.org/serendipity/uploads...le-McBride.pdf
"Gut and Psychology Syndrome
(GAP Syndrome or GAPS). The GAPS children and adults can present with
symptoms of autism, ADHD, ADD, OCD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia,
depression, bipolar disorder, sleep disorders, allergies, asthma and eczema in any possible combination."

Finally, are you giving your ds any type of probiotic? A yeast issue (candida) might also be the culprit for issues with sleep. You mention that you are thinking about gut inflamation, but I'm wondering if you already do probiotics.

[kjbrown92]

Is the soy an allergy or an intolerance? From what I've seen, people with allergy can tolerate the oil/lecithin, but those with intolerance can't.

Citric acid (corn) is found in tons of supplements. DD2 is corn-free and that seems far harder than a lot of others (probably because it's not a top-8 allergen so they don't have to specify it). There's also maltodextrin and dextrose in a ton of stuff. I have heard conflicting things about MSG - some say gluten, some say corn, so we avoid it in any case.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

I have heard conflicting things about MSG - some say gluten, some say corn, so we avoid it in any case.

Can you clarify what you mean? As a derivative? MSG can be a naturally occurring food chemical apart from either. The reason I was posting about it in general is that whether it's natural or manufactured it is a known excitotoxin. It can really mess with the nervous system in sensitive individuals food allergy/intolerance aside. I just dont' understand if you are saying it's derived from gluten or soy? It can be, but it can also occur naturally.

[kjbrown92]

Here's the Wikipedia definition. It says it used to be made from wheat gluten, but now it's made of a number of things, one of which is "starch" (which can be a whole host of foods). Near the end of the article, it talks about naturally occuring glutamate (which doesn't sound that common). We avoid it in any case. But we avoid anything that's ambiguous as to origin, because we have so many food intolerances in the family.

[Panserbjorne]

that's absolutely true. I just think it's important to understand that even the naturally occurring MSG can be problematic for reasons other than allergic responses. I guess that's where I got confused!