CLO, HVCLO, fermented/raw CLO... additives, lactic acid, etc.

[changingseasons]

This was mentioned on another thread and I said I was going to contact Green Pastures... and now I can't find the thread. So I'm starting a new one.

I've been meaning to get some HVCLO for a while now. I just bought the TwinLab CLO to trial, becuase I really thought it was going to fail for DD. Over the holidays, Green Pastures had a really good sale so I figured now is the time to do it! But, after someone mentioning how they ferment on lactic acid, and reading the products labels and seeing other ingredients, I decided to contact them for more info. And I am getting nothing but a run-around!!!

Here's a few questions that I asked, along with their answers so far (bits and pieces from a few emails, not copied and pasted mods):

1. Are there any other ingredients in the HVCLO?
   1. Annti-oxidant and organic flavors
2. What is the (soy-free) plant sterol derived from (in both the high vitamin and the fermented CLO)?
   
   1. Proprietary blend of a couple food grade plant essential oils. (In asking further, he completely ignored the question except to say that there's not much used, only "a couple drops per jar"... as if that matters. )
3. What other fish besides cod are in the fermented CLO (label states <3% of other fish sources)?
   
   1. Scaly and fins..
4. What is the difference between the fermented and the RAW fermented?
   
   1. Raw has no anti-oxidant
5. Are there any other ingredients in the RAW fermented?
   
   1. No
6. Someone mentioned that fermented CLO is fermented on lactic acid. Is this true? If so, what is the lactic acid derived from?
   
   1. Natural
   2. What do you mean by natural?
      1. i don't know other than this term. just like in your gut
   3. From my understanding, lactic acid is normally fermented from lactose (dairy) or some other food source. Is it dairy-derived lactic acid?
      
      1. no
      2. what type of concern? (I said I would like to order the raw fermented but was concerned about the lactic acid) have not heard of concern with naturally occuring lactic acid b4
   4. My concern is that my daughter has a severe, anaphylactic (life threatening) allergy to dairy (as well as many other foods). Lactic acid, from my understanding, is usually made from fermenting lactate, which is milk sugar. Which would mean that it is dairy-derived, which means that my daughter will react to it.
      1. no dairy added
   5. Maybe you’re not understanding my question. I’m asking what the lactic acid is made FROM. I know that you don’t add dairy, but I need to make sure that dairy isn’t the source of the lactic acid.
      
      1. it is naturally made, just like in your gut

WTF?!? Can someone please help explain this to me? Doesn't it have to be made FROM something? It doesn't just appear. : I can fully understand that it's not necessarily made from dairy, but isn't it *sometimes*? Why is this so hard of a question? I am completely annoyed now.

[kjbrown92]

This is from Wikipediea "Although it can be fermented from lactose (milk sugar), most commercially used lactic acid is derived by using bacteria such as Bacillus acidilacti, Lactobacillus delbueckii or Lactobacillus bulgaricus to ferment carbohydrates from nondairy sources such as cornstarch, potatoes and molasses. Thus, although it is commonly known as "milk acid", vegan products can contain lactic acid as an ingredient." Yes, it still sounds like there has to be a source. It's not like their using human lactic acid from someone's stomach, are they? You can always ask to speak to someone higher?

I've been using Vital Nutrients stuff. I use the High Potency Fish Oil, and I used the Cod Liver Oil (lemon flavor) for the kids but DS can't have lemon and DD1 wouldn't drink it in the smoothies (or any other way) so it's sitting in my fridge. Okay. I just called. They have "natural tocopherols" in theirs, and the source is soy. Which is odd, since soy as in soy sauce was giving me IBS and since I cut out all soy (or what I thought was all soy) all the IBS stuff went away. But apparently I've been having it all along.... Anyway, I forgot to ask them if there is dairy in it, but the ingredients (if you can have soy) are: natural lemon flavor, rosemary extract, ascorbyl palmitate, and natural tocopherols (from soy).

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

This is from Wikipediea "Although it can be fermented from lactose (milk sugar), most commercially used lactic acid is derived by using bacteria such as Bacillus acidilacti, Lactobacillus delbueckii or Lactobacillus bulgaricus to ferment carbohydrates from nondairy sources such as cornstarch, potatoes and molasses. Thus, although it is commonly known as "milk acid", vegan products can contain lactic acid as an ingredient." Yes, it still sounds like there has to be a source. It's not like their using human lactic acid from someone's stomach, are they? You can always ask to speak to someone higher?

That's hilarious- I actually emailed him that exact sentence from Wikipedia with pretty much the same question:

Naturally made from WHAT? This is getting a little frustrating. I can only assume that you don’t culture your lactic acid inside of a human body, so it must be made out of something. It can’t just appear out of thin air.
And his answer:

i think most animal visera will have lactic acid action
So obviously he doesn't have a CLUE where their lactic acid comes from... and I'm tired of asking questions. I guess I'll just order from Dr. Ron's, because they very openly state that their antioxidant is rosemary oil (for the HVCLO). I was hoping to get the Green Pastures sale, because it would have been like $9 cheaper than Dr. Ron's, but clearly this aggravation is not worth the savings.

[kortner]

yikes! thanks for looking into this!!! i asked the lactic acid question on some other thread, but it was waaay off topic. guess i won't be buying from green pastures either. some customer service! how aggravating! :

[Mirzam]

Dr Ron's CLO is Green Pastures HVCLO (private label), just not the fermented kind. I wounder if Dave is trying to say that the lactic acid is a product of the fermentation process? Ie like clabber -- fermented raw milk without a starter.

Here is an excerpt from an email discussion on fermented CLO that Dave has been having on a yahoo group I am on, this is concerning the lactic acid.

the only negative to the fermented (if you can call it a negative) is that it is high in lactic
acid so it has a different feel in the back of the throat. i describe it similar to raw apple
cider vinegar. it makes me want to clear my throat after taking. some struggle with this.
if so then take the capsules. or mix with foods. in the old days people took the clo with
something acidic like orange juice or tomato juice.

As far as I know, there is no dairy in cider vinegar.

Also, I would bear in mind that as from the fall of 2008, the last of the HVCLO was manufactured, so once it is gone only the fermented will be available. The manufacturing process has changed and the manufacturer (not Green Pastures) will be adding back synthetic vitamins.

Another quote from Dave's email:

We will not sell synthetic nutrient cod liver oil or low nutrient
content cod liver oil. just as we will not sell any nutrientless industrialized fish oil. it is
out of principle to not carry the synthetic forms

So you might want to check out where Dr Ron's HVCLO will be coming from in the future.

I could quote the whole email as it is very interesting, but I am sure it would be against the UA.

I honestly, think he is coming from a genuine place and probably didn't understand your questions.

[Chinese Pistache]

That was incredibly frustrating to read. . . and I didn't even have to talk to him!

I had many a conversation just like that when we got dd's corn allergy diagnosis. Pretty much, I just gave up on the products where the customer service people didn't have a clue.

So, are we saying that the regular fish oil (not fermented) is okay? No soy, no dairy, etc.?

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by uccomama

Dr Ron's CLO is Green Pastures HVCLO (private label), just not the fermented kind. I wounder if Dave is trying to say that the lactic acid is a product of the fermentation process? Ie like clabber -- fermented raw milk without a starter.

Also, I would bear in mind that as from the fall of 2008, the last of the HVCLO was manufactured, so once it is gone only the fermented will be available. The manufacturing process has changed and the manufacturer (not Green Pastures) will be adding back synthetic vitamins.

Dr. Ron's has fermented too though. I just emailed with the 'other ingredients?' and 'lactic acid?' questions, so we'll see what he says.

That's interesting about there not being any more HVCLO. But I'm confused. I just kind of assumed it's all the same CLO, just that some of it is fermented and some is not. So what are they going to ferment if there's no more HVCLO?

Originally Posted by Chinese Pistache

That was incredibly frustrating to read. . . and I didn't even have to talk to him!

I had many a conversation just like that when we got dd's corn allergy diagnosis. Pretty much, I just gave up on the products where the customer service people didn't have a clue.

So, are we saying that the regular fish oil (not fermented) is okay? No soy, no dairy, etc.?

Well, the regular HVCLO (and just plain CLO) has the antioxidants, which are usually soy based in CLO, and who knows what in HVCLO (well, Dr. Ron's is rosemary).

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Chinese Pistache

So, are we saying that the regular fish oil (not fermented) is okay? No soy, no dairy, etc.?

I don't know if it is "okay", but if it is, it will only be until present stocks run out then, as I explained, you will need to find another reliable source. Here is the problem with "industrial" CLO, in Dave's words:

if the clo is heated at all then it must be cleaned. heating breaks bonds and create
many problems. many natural elements we call toxins...true, they are toxins when man
starts industrializing the sacred foods. cleaning is done by the use of heat and pressure in
the industrialized model. for the most part everything coming out of industrialized
nations such as norway and iceland will be good. these mills are all new mills and have
excellent standards as for a cleaning the oils and shelf life

.

So you will need to find a CLO from either Norway or Iceland that has the natural vitamins retained. Personally, I don't want my children ingesting this kind of processed food which is why I would only give them raw fermented CLO. FWIW, the raw fermented CLO is okay with nutritionist Aajonus Vonderplanitiz, who some (okay most) would classify as really radical, I asked him about it recently.

[changingseasons]

I just emailed GP back to clarify if the lactic acid is a byproduct (rather than something added) to the fermentation. That definitely would make more sense from his answers... thanks for that suggestion, uccomama.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Dr. Ron's has fermented too though. I just emailed with the 'other ingredients?' and 'lactic acid?' questions, so we'll see what he says.

That's interesting about there not being any more HVCLO. But I'm confused. I just kind of assumed it's all the same CLO, just that some of it is fermented and some is not. So what are they going to ferment if there's no more HVCLO?

Dr Ron's fermented CLO is made by Green Pastures, so there is no difference, (you might get a more coherent answer wrt the lactic acid), it is made by Green Pastures, there is no other supplier of fermented CLO. The HVCLO was outsourced. This is the issue, the manufacturer of the HVCLO has changed its manufacturing process, and it will now contain synthetic vitamins which is why Dave will no longer sell it.

Green pastures makes the fermented CLO from cod's livers, It isn't a fermented form of the HVCLO using some kind of starter. At least as I understand from what Dave is saying.

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by uccomama

Dr Ron's fermented CLO is made by Green Pastures, so there is no difference, (you might get a more coherent answer wrt the lactic acid), it is made by Green Pastures, there is no other supplier of fermented CLO. The HVCLO was outsourced. This is the issue, the manufacturer of the HVCLO has changed its manufacturing process, and it will now contain synthetic vitamins which is why Dave will no longer sell it.

Green pastures makes the fermented CLO from cod's livers, It isn't a fermented form of the HVCLO using some kind of starter. At least as I understand from what Dave is saying.

hmmm... I wondered about that. I asked in the TF forum a long time ago if they were the same thing (since they're both called "blue ice") but didn't get an answer. So I guess I should just order it from GP then since they're cheaper.

So GP HVCLO is no good now? That's annoying. I will keep my fingers crossed for a more definitive answer on the raw fermented....

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

So GP HVCLO is no good now? That's annoying. I will keep my fingers crossed for a more definitive answer on the raw fermented....

Dave will only sell the HVCLO with natural vitamins, so the current stock is good. Once that runs out there will be no more HVCLO from Green Pastures (and that would go for the private label versions too). So you would have to find HVCLO with natural vitamins from another source.

[PaulaJoAnne]

I would recommend speaking with Dr. Ron over at www.drrons.com.
He developed the Blue Ice products. GP is jst one of his providers.
You will recieve far better answers to the questions you asked.
I have had some conflict with GP myself, since we live in Alaska. They refuse to ship USPS, and wanted to charge $30 for shipping just one bottle to us.
Dr Rons charges only $9.
Paula

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by PaulaJoAnne

I would recommend speaking with Dr. Ron over at www.drrons.com.
He developed the Blue Ice products. GP is jst one of his providers.
You will recieve far better answers to the questions you asked.
I have had some conflict with GP myself, since we live in Alaska. They refuse to ship USPS, and wanted to charge $30 for shipping just one bottle to us.
Dr Rons charges only $9.
Paula

Are you sure, I think it is the other way round. At least it definitely is the case with the fermented CLO, GP is the manufacturer. The HVCLO is outsourced and isn't made by either GP or Dr Ron. The reason I am disputing this is because Dave of GP wrote a very detailed article about the manufacturing of CLO. As far as I know Blue Ice was available at GP before Dr Ron started carrying it.

When I began my quest to market cod liver oil, the biggest hurdle I had to overcome involved the myths and inaccuracies that are discussed in the market place. After 18 months of research, I was comfortable placing my first order.

I have interviewed manufacturers, laboratories, fisheries, fish meal plants, fish farms and many fish oil mills throughout the world. The final phase of my work included a careful study of the facts to select a region of the world that offered the largest and most modern fish oil industry and then a personal visit and inspection of the various enterprises.

The culmination of my research was two weeks spent in Iceland and Norway visiting six different mills, a cod fish farm, fishing boats and a slaughter house.

Anyway, the CLO is the same from GP or Dr Ron.

[changingseasons]

How confusing... but which ever way it goes, they are the exact same product, right?

GP emailed back and said he guessed that a by-product is correct because nothing is added. I'm still not totally comfortable with his answers, because it sounds like 1) he doesn't understand my questions, and 2) he doesn't really know what goes into the product or how it is made.

Maybe I'll just stick with my $10 TwinLab CLO. I just emailed them today too, and they verified that their A & D are naturally occurring, not synthetic. So obviously I'll have to take more than the HVCLO, but is there any other major difference? Oh, and the ratio is better I think. TwinLab is about 10:1 for A : D.

[Mirzam]

Yes, same product. I am certain Dave knows how the fermented CLO is made. Personally, I wouldn't go with Twin Labs unless you are very sure the vitamin A and D are natural, even then it is highly industrialized. There is so much more to fermented CLO than just vitamin A and D, as Dave's email goes on to say:

after seeing first hand the 'industrialized' manufacturing method of our sacred food/
clo i started to to work on manufacturing of clo. i was offended with the practice that was
in place just as i am offended with ultra pasteurization and homogenization of our milk.
who would go through the effort to buy a 100% grass fed milk only to ultra-pasteurize
and homogenize it prior to drinking? same is true with clo.

the important nutrients of clo are far beyond A/D. there is sooo much more to the
story. REAL clo has thousands of nutreints and they are naturally bound within the fatty
acid structures. farmed raised fish and processing methods can have dramatic effects on
the fatty acid structures and the vitamins/quinones and hormone structures.

hormones are nutrients... beyond vitamin D hormones.

there are 15+ forms of vitamin A and upto 3000 derivatives of vitamin D hormones.

[changingseasons]

Gah... this is all so frustrating. TwinLab did say that their vitamins are naturally occurring, but I see your point about the over processing stuff....

So what are my other options for HVCLO besides GP? And where do you get all that info about Dr. Ron's? I hope they email me back soon and give me some real answers.

[Mirzam]

There is always the CLO from Radiant Life, Premier Quantum Norwegian Cod Liver Oil. Same amount of A and D in the same ratio as GP's HVCLO. Personally, I would still go with the raw fermented stuff.

[changingseasons]

Well, I would like to but there's no way I can without a clear answer about that lactic acid. DD is ana to dairy, and reacts to more than just the proteins in it.

I did look at that Radiant Life one a while back, but it says that they add vitamin E as a preservative, which usually means soy. Maybe I'll give them a call and see.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Well, I would like to but there's no way I can without a clear answer about that lactic acid. DD is ana to dairy, and reacts to more than just the proteins in it.

I did look at that Radiant Life one a while back, but it says that they add vitamin E as a preservative, which usually means soy. Maybe I'll give them a call and see.

I hope you find the answers.