You know, it's really quite scary...

[Mister Noodle]

... to realise just how steeped in circumcision culture the US really is.

I'm an Australian myself, and while the practice is not unknown (very quick googling shows 6 - 20% cross the country), it's certainly not considered 'normal'. It's mainly religious and old rural/conservative populations making up the bulk of it.

So reading these threads, and coming to realise that the culture as a whole - and most terrifyingly, the medical profession within it - is utterly ignorant of normal human anatomy... is just plain freaky. It's not just a trend, a rate of incidence - it's a whole national mindset.

I don't know if I have an actual point (except: eek!), but I am beginning to wonder: is the best approach to change not so much advocacy, as education? When the population doesn't even understand the problem... a bit like trying to campaign against FGM in a country where female sexuality isn't even a concept.

Ehh, it's hard to put concisely. I know that hammering people with information is effective on a per-case basis, but it seems like we're frantically catching sparks round the edge of the room, while the gigantic fire continues to burn in the middle.

I suppose another parallel would be lactivism - it's not that hard to convince individuals that breastfeeding is better, but when the entire culture associates babies with bottles, when breastfeeding is one of those arcane things associated with birth and newborns than normal everyday parenting, it's almost impossible to gain any serious momentum.

So the question remains: how do we get in on the ground floor, here? How do we get past the nudity/sex/bathroom taboos that prevent the issues from even getting mentioned? (another issue where US culture gets in the way - for such a... materialistic.. place, the general prudery is off the scale.) How do we even begin to change the default image of the human male?

[/ramble] [/vent]

[thixle]

I'm chipping away one person at a time IRL. And on the net where multiple people will read... I also leave a trail of pamphlets behind me
Where I live, I estimate 90% or more of boys are circ'ed in the hospital, so I'm not above chatting up total strangers
I've signed every petition or bill I can get my hands on, too.

Welcome, Mister Noodle : (love the name, btw) Just talking about it helps more than you think.

[bluetoes]

It's only really come to me just how ingrained it is, even though I am American. I only thought it was ignorant who can't be reasoned with or grossly uninformed people, if intelligent people had the info they'd come to their senses.

I thought if I had a friend who was intelligent and knowledgable about things it would be easy to convince her with reason. I have come to the conclusion I was wrong. People act like I've suggested they put orange juice and pee on their cornflakes instead of milk when I say that circumcision is wrong for the myriad of reasons it is. It makes me want to give up. Because if I don't worry about it I won't feel so involved and hurt. But of course I can't do that, it's just not in my nature.

[Night_Nurse]

... I only thought it was ignorant who can't be reasoned with or grossly uninformed people, if intelligent people had the info they'd come to their senses.

I know where you're coming from - BTDT!
When they truly have all the info and are highly intelligent and compassionate people, and still circumcise despite it all. It really is disheartening, isn't it?

I'm guessing you weren't able to convince your friend not to circ her baby?
At least you tried, which is far better than not saying anything at all.

[LiLStar]

One thing I think could make an impact is to really stress to people the care of the intact penis (ie, nothing). I think for many people, a major motivating factor to circ is because "its just cleaner" which roughly translates to "I absolutely cannot imagine having to pull that back *shudder* at every diaper change to clean gunk out of it, and would much rather cut it off and never have to deal with it" so educating people that not only is that unnecessary, but it is very important that they NOT do it, might help more people feel better about leaving their sons intact. (still leaves work to do on the "prevents hiv/stds" and "it just looks better" groups)

I used to live in an area with a really high circ rate. a pregnant mom came to my house one day to pick up something I was selling on craigslist. We chatted for a few minutes and she talked about her sister who just had a baby, and somehow got to how his thing from the circumcision finally fell off (plastibell, right?) and how creepy it was for it to be stuck there for..however long it was stuck there. I agreed with her, that YES, it IS horrifying! She went on to say how glad she is that she's having a girl so that she won't have to deal with that. So I told her, oh if you ever have a boy, you don't have to! If I have a boy next, I'm definitely not circing" and her response was, "yeah, but..then you have to clean under it and stuff.." So I told her that actually, it can cause harm to do that and there's no need to ever pull it back, the boy will learn to do it himself by puberty. I could see something just CLICK in her eyes! She looked so relieved. I hope I planted some seeds. I imagine there has to be lots of other people with the same misconception as her, who really don't relish the idea of putting their sweet babies through a circ, but are too scared of what they believe is necessary intact care.

[perspective]

For me its the other way around. I grew up with circumcision seeming SO NORMAL. And only in the past few years have I realized it was just a cultural thing, and for a long while it was hard to rap my head around that concept.

Even though I push for a culture where males can have control over their own bodies, where they can make personal choices for themselves, it still is something thats hard for me to imagine.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Mister Noodle

I don't know if I have an actual point (except: eek!), but I am beginning to wonder: is the best approach to change not so much advocacy, as education? When the population doesn't even understand the problem... a bit like trying to campaign against FGM in a country where female sexuality isn't even a concept.

Education sounds great, but it can be harder than you might imagine. Americans can be amazingly resistant to education if it goes against what they want.

For example; There is a movement to remove the "under God" part of the pledge of alligance. Many of the people who want to keep it in say "If it was good enough for the Founding Fathers, then it is good enough for me." They don't not like to be informed that the "under God" part was added in the 1950's (if you look up the text of the whole thing you can see how it makes more sence and has a smoother rythim without it,) and that the pledge itself was introduced after the Civil war (around 80 ot 90 years after the foundations of America were being laid out.)

(another issue where US culture gets in the way - for such a... materialistic.. place, the general prudery is off the scale.)

Another thing one must remember is that the US was to a large degree founded by religios fanatics (the Puritains.) Where as Austerailia was founded by pick pockets and Irish political prisoners.

[becca_howell]

Originally Posted by Mister Noodle

I don't know if I have an actual point (except: eek!), but I am beginning to wonder: is the best approach to change not so much advocacy, as education? When the population doesn't even understand the problem... a bit like trying to campaign against FGM in a country where female sexuality isn't even a concept.

I think the best approach is a happy medium. Advocacy and education is the key. If we stick to advocacy alone, we risk turning into the "nutty, anti-everything" parents some of us have already been labeled as. Then who will listen to us? Come on, do you really listen to the crazy person on the side of the road who claims the world is coming to an end? No, you say, "What a nut." and go about your business. The problem with education alone is that some people just won't listen to sound reasoning. They are happy in their little mainstream bubble. Ignorance truly is bliss! We need to sign petitions, talk to friends and family members, especially those who are having children or may have interactions with your intact son...

My problem right now! My mother (who DH, DD, FDS and I live with) is a strict believer in circumcision, and premature retraction of uncirc'd penises. I wrote her a very nice E-mail with a LOT of information and mine and DH's beliefs on the issue. She didn't get through half of it! Grr... At least I have DH's support on this. The way we see it, she agrees not to touch his foreskin or doesn't change a single diaper.

[LavenderMae]

Advocacy and edcuation are both great tools but I don't think circumcision will end here until Medical proffessionals (and medical org. take a stand agaist it) ect stop promoting and performing circumcisions routinely on newborn boys or it becomes illegal for them to do so. Too many people in the US look at doctors as gods and if the majority of doctors are saying circumcision is not only a good thing but no big deal (inregards to the baby going through it) then circumcision will continue to be an option or even the default in many parent's minds.
I wish more parents could just be swayed by reading the truth but their cultural conditioning teamed with the overall acceptance from the medical community seems to keep even intelligent and compassionate parents from turning their backs on such an inherently disgusting and barbaric practice.
Intelligence does not equal not following the crowd and thinking for oneself unfortunately.

[bluetoes]

I think a big chunk of the answer will be purely financial - for insurance, both gov't and private to stop paying for it. Then docs won't want to do them IN CASE they don't get paid. This will help people eventually get over the belief it is medically needed if they have to pay for it. While some will still circ. many won't so it will become more mainstream to not do it. That will turn the tide even more.

I just wish people would realise it is NOT A CRUNCHY ISSUE! The most mainstream non-breastfeeding from day one vaccinating/ no where being a hippie/ I know from other countries don't circ. We're not asking people to bury their placentas or breastfeed their kids till they're 9 or co-sleep or baby wear 24/7 or quit shaving their arm-pits and start unpooing and live off the grid etc etc. Just don't cut pieces off your newborns genitals. How hard is that???!!!!

[becca_howell]

I just wish people would realise it is NOT A CRUNCHY ISSUE! The most mainstream non-breastfeeding from day one vaccinating/ no where being a hippie/ I know from other countries don't circ. We're not asking people to bury their placentas or breastfeed their kids till they're 9 or co-sleep or baby wear 24/7 or quit shaving their arm-pits and start unpooing and live off the grid etc etc. Just don't cut pieces off your newborns genitals. How hard is that???!!!!

Very true. Unfortunately, it is not seen like that in the US

[jessjgh1]

That's a very good insight about the whole larger issue.

Even many people who agree with me, bristle when it is compared to FGM-- I take this as a form of protectionism... because to admit that it IS really similar to FGM means that what is going on is really horrifying.... and most people cannot make that leap. It means you have to say that 90% of the people you know did something or had something done to them that is mutilation. You have to question doctors, nurses, friends, family, etc. Then there's the whole fact that so many in our culture are just ignorant of how an inact foreskin works... that there is truly this belief that removing it doesn't alter anything.

So much ignorance that needs to be corrected. It's all a lot for someone to take in.

The more you know, the worse it gets..... but I find that sometimes information overload causes people to stop listening. Its a hard balance to find between giving people enough information and not too much.

Jessica

[Mister Noodle]

Exactly, becca.

I'm probably one of the least-crunchy people here (and a hardcore skeptic/cynic/etc to bot), so I'm sensitive to that kind of thing. (okay, for the record: 2yrs breastfed, mostly-self-weaned, no CC, no smacking, but we fully vaccinate, only co-sleep when he's sick, watch lots of TV, use disposable nappies, etc.)

People are quick to write off anything that's even a little crispy round the edges, or even sounds as though it might be, which is why I always keep an eye out for bad or unpersuasive anti arguments.

But that it's seen as a crunchy issue at all is right at the core of the problem, I think. And a little self-defeating - only crunchy hippy activists go against norms, talk about taboo subjects, and make a big deal out of something considered insignficant, pretty much by definition. And so in a nasty vicious circle, the topic itself gets written off as one of those weird hippy obsessions, and so should be safely ignored along with anyone who mentions it.

(the parallel with wacko conspiracy theories is depressing as hell, btw...)

It's just so frustrating.

[Blu Razzberri]

Originally Posted by perspective

For me its the other way around. I grew up with circumcision seeming SO NORMAL....

This was the same for me too. I was outraged to learn that circumcision is just unnecessary torture; and that only in rare instances is it truly necessary. I've asked "What's wrong with society??" many times. It's sick and twisted!

...I think a big chunk of the answer will be purely financial - for insurance, both gov't and private to stop paying for it....

That was my thinking for the USA too. But here in Canada, it's not covered anymore. But, even as a totally out-of-pocket expense, it's still a problem. I attribute this to the scare-the-hell-out-of-you approach of the profiting doctors. It's like a high-pressure sales transaction. What needs to happen now, is it needs to be illegal.

...Just don't cut pieces off your newborns genitals. How hard is that???!!!!

I know, eh?

[serendipity22]

imo one important factor in maintaining circ in the USA is the assumption is that circ is much more common in other developed countries than it actually is.

How many people in the US know that only in the US and Israel are a majority of infant boys circed?

How many know that circ never took off in non English speaking western countries?

How many know that circ has greatly declined in other English speaking countries?

I suspect not many.