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Anyone Jewish-By-Choice?

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
Hi There,

I was raised with a non-practising Roman Catholic Mom and Muslim dad, and did not go to church hardly ever, or to the mosque, only occasionally, but my parents never pushed religion on us, or even taught us anything about it.

So 2 babies later, I have found the need for more, and ended up learning about Reform Judaism, which after searching and never really thinking I would find a Religion that met my beliefs so well, I was so happy to find!

I have started to read the Torah, and am almost done Genesis, but am taking my time to get through and comprehend everything.

I am just wondering if there is anyone out there who is in a similar situation? Or has been. My husband was raised Roman Catholic but is more of the Eastern Religions than any others, but is totally supportive, and is even willing to go to a service with me at a Reform synagogue to support me, sot that is great.

Heidi
post #2 of 38
I'm working on converting to judiasm, probably through a reform congregation. Our practices are more conservative leaning than most reform groups, but we're an interfaith family and most of the conservative rabbis in my area aren't okay with that. I think we'll end up at a great Reconstructionist shul eventually, but they don't work with converts. And frankly, we're pretty happy where we are.

I don't know what else you want to know, but I felt a lot like you did -- that I needed something more in my life. I grew up without religion and my mother is actually pretty hostile to faith in general. I didn't want my kids to be raised that way, and needed to find something I could believe in without all the caveats I had when I was trying to be Catholic. (I didn't believe in the resurrection or the divinity of Jesus, didn't believe in the virgin birth, didn't believe in the trinity... I made a pretty piss poor Catholic!)
post #3 of 38


Raised Roman Catholic, oldest of nine children, converted twenty-five years ago.

Raised my four children in Judaism
post #4 of 38
I am just starting to look into conversion. I was raise Protestant and was very active in the church until I started questioning my beliefs when I was a teen. I have spent many years as a Pagan but have been feeling the need to have more of a structured faith since having kids. So I have been taking a hard look at what part of my faith I was having a problem with. I discovered it was not the Bible I had trouble believing but the resurrection the divinity of Jesus, and the virgin birth. Also a major portion of my problem was the congregation, and minster in the church I was attending.
I unfortunately live in a town that only has one Jewish congregation and they only meet when a Rabbi came make it to our area( 1-2 times a month). I am planing on starting to attend this upcoming friday. I hope my DH will be willing to go with me ( he is a x Catholic with a lot of hang ups about religion) but I doubt he will. So it looks like I will probably be doing it on my own with my 3 small DC's.

I hope that we will keep this thread going It is nice to have some like minded moms to discuss this with.
post #5 of 38
DH converted with me.
post #6 of 38
Thread Starter 
Hi Ladies,
Thanks for all the responses. I am happy to hear everyone's experiences/similar situations.
I think that was a major one fo rme too was the trinity.

It is interesting as I have been going back ages and following old threads, there was one someone posted about how did Christianity stem off from Judaism, so interesting to hear everyone discuss so respectfully of each other! I also really learned a lot from that thread it was a good one.

I am curious as to what the difference is between was a Conservative vs. a Reform Jewish person would feel about hell and death in general. I know that one thing that I found appealing about Reform was that from what I read, they followers believe they don't know what will happen but trust that it will be good as G-d is good.
ANyone?

Hope all can understand and forgive my ignorance with many things! I am a very new to all religion, literally just learned the story of Noah's Ark a couple of months ago. My husband couldn't believe I had never really heard it!

Best to all!
H
post #7 of 38
I converted from Roman Catholicism a couple years ago.

I currently work in a Reform synagogue. There are differences between Reform and Conservative, and a lot depends on your family structure. Your DH isn't Jewish, right? Mine isn't either. Maybe you should check out both a Reform and Conservative synagogue. Reform synagogues stand on a different platform when it comes to halacha (Jewish law) and on interfaith marriages than Conservative synagogues do, but depending on the synagogues in your area, you may feel more welcome in one than the other.

I would say talk to a couple Rabbis, check out websites of shuls (synagogues) in your area, and do some surfing. As always, we're here to answer any questions.

Good luck!
post #8 of 38
Thread Starter 
I actually just found a Reform shul just 1 hr away that I could go to. it looks really great and welcoming to all. The shul where I live is a mix I think of all Jewish faiths (probably not the right word!)

Can you actually "convert" to Reform? I read that the Israeli gov't doesnt see anything but orthodox as really Jewish and will not accept anyone as a true Jewish person unless they are orthodox? Is this not true?

My husband is actually not Jewish, he is a ex-Roman Catholic, with very similar views to Judaism, but he would never be a part of organized religion again I don't think.

We had a interesting conversation last night as he put down our 2 yr old to bed and said a prayer with him, and started with "In the name of the Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit."

So anyway, he said to me, that he says this so that our boy knows its time to pray. And I was totally flabbergasted! I asked him why we would say that when it goes against both of our beliefs, and he had to think about it.

In the end, I told him exactly what I said growing up when it was time to pray.... "Dear God..."

It just goes to show how much influence a religion can have on someone who was raised with it.

Love this thread! Great to talk to others!
post #9 of 38
You can convert to Judaism, not to Reform. Reform is a perspective within Judaism, not a different kind of religion. If your conversion is performed by a Reform rabbi, it will not be recognized by the Israeli gov't. But you (in 99% of cases) can't convert with an Orthodox rabbi unless your DH also converts.
post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by workathomemom2two View Post
Can you actually "convert" to Reform? I read that the Israeli gov't doesnt see anything but orthodox as really Jewish and will not accept anyone as a true Jewish person unless they are orthodox? Is this not true?
Well, it is not quite that simple. Actually you can be registered as Jewish in the Interior Ministry if you have not done an Orthodox conversion.
For purposes of marraige, burial and the Bar Mitvah and marraige and burial of your children (if you are a woman converting outside the Orthodox stream), you/your children will not be considered Jewish.

There is no civil marraige in Israel, making this tough if you want a religious wedding, but not an Orthodox one. (you have a civil marraige overseas and then come back and do the Reform wedding as your personal ceremony, but not as a legal procedure)

Reform conversion is accepted to make Aliyah if the conversion was done outside of Israel. Reform conversion done in Israel allows you to register as Jewish with the government, as I outlined earlier. But it is tricky.
post #11 of 38
How many on the converted mammas have chosen not to circumcise there sons?
post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainRaven View Post
How many on the converted mammas have chosen not to circumcise there sons?
Our situation here is complex -- I am still in the process of converting, and my sons are already 1 and 3. They'll likely be a couple of years older by the time I convert. One of the reasons that I'm not converting through a Conservative Shul is that the Rabbis that I spoke with were not comfortable with my choice not to convert my children because it would involve circumcision, and I feel that they're old enough that I can't make that decision for them. While they will grow up with a Jewish identity (I hope) and in a Jewish home, they won't technically be Jewish and it's going to be an issue we'll have to keep talking about until they're ready to decide what to do, and I have to support them no matter what their choices are.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what I will do if we are blessed with another child and it's a boy. I've thought about it a lot. The commandment it's self is not something I can escape; it's very clear to me that we are being asked by God to do this, and that comes directly from God...it's not something that comes through rabbinical interpretation. I do believe that there is a sort of penumbra that babies pass through after birth where they become less and less a part of their mother's bodies that makes brit milah have some emotional sense to me in a way that circumcising my 3 year old, who is outside of that penumbra, doesn't. On the other hand, I'm not sure that I could actually make that decision for my child when push came to shove, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't watch the brit take place. DH isn't converting and isn't sure how he'd feel about a brit. And there would be some questions we'd have to be prepared to answer from my already born sons about why their new brother's willy looks different from their's and their father's.

I guess the end of that long rant is "I don't know. But I've thought about it. A lot. And I'm hoping that I'll live my way into an answer before it becomes an issue."
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belleweather View Post
On the other hand, I'm not sure what I will do if we are blessed with another child and it's a boy. I've thought about it a lot. The commandment it's self is not something I can escape; it's very clear to me that we are being asked by God to do this, and that comes directly from God...it's not something that comes through rabbinical interpretation.

I struggled with this issue for years (decades, actually), since my lineage is Jewish and I really believed -- or was brainwashed -- that the matter was a "done deal" as per instructions from God. Even though circumcision was completely repulsive to me and I could see on an intellectual level that it made no sense. It was a small factor in my conversion to Christianity in college.

Since then I've done a huge amount of research, and read some remarkable, scholarly books in the past few years that have really opened my eyes. Here is a summary I posted a little while back to another site:

Well, lots of people don't believe that God, or in this instance Yahweh, required circumcision at all. Much of the scholarly theological work of the past 20 years or so has come to the conclusion that circumcision was never prescribed by God, and that it was actually pushed by the (now discredited and gone) priests of Judaism as a way to rally and control the Hebrews when the priests were starting to lose their power. It was a practice well-known at the time (Babylonian period) but not generally practiced by the Hebrews, and the priests wove it clumsily back through their history, first orally and later in written form. It is not in dispute that the first 4 known iterations of the pentateuch (starting with what many now call the Book of J) make no reference to infant circumcision; the fifth version - the basis for our current Old Testament - has a somewhat awkward chapter 17 that looks to be little more than an elaboration of Chapter 15, but with circumcision thrown in. Scholars refer to this latter version of the pentateuch (or Torah) as the Book of P, a reference to the priests who apparently re-wrote it.

The procedure the priests advocated wasn't awfully controversial; it involved cutting just the overhanging tip of the newborn's foreskin and even a father could do it more or less successfully with a knife. This seems to have been the course for about 300 hundred years until the Hellenic period, when it was highly out of fashion to be cut, and some younger Jewish men sought to reverse their half-circumcisions through stretching (epispasm). The rabbis became alarmed -- the corrupt priests were long-gone -- and ordered up a whole new type of circumcision contemplated nowhere in Genesis. This one came in 3 parts: cutting the skin (milah), tearing the binding synechia between the glans and foreskin of newborns (periah) and severing any skin that might touch the glans, and then sucking the wound for 30 seconds (metzitza). This rather severe new modification to circumcision also required the introduction of an entirely new profession also not mentioned anywhere in the Bible: the mohel, or skilled circumcision practitioner, since this newly prescribed surgery was unsafe in the hands of most new dads. The party thrown today (bris) so the community of friends and relatives can witness the newborn's foreskin being cut off also has no biblical or divine basis; it likely evolved as a way to prevent parents from backing out of the more extensive circumcision through peer pressure.

When examined critically, it seems pretty obvious that circumcision is man-made, not divinely ordained. Even if one were utterly convinced of the facts of Genesis 17 (a stretch, since even moderate scholars agree that Abraham was likely mythical), there is no evidence that the radical circumcision seen today had anything to do with Old Testament instructions or practice. It emerged as an extreme response by clergy to perceived vanity in a culture that idolized male nudity and integrity.


If one accepts these historical facts, it stands to reason that God not only did not prescribe or condone the radical circumcision we see today, but it would be an affront. Not only do I take great comfort in knowing that my God did not order half the skin of my son's penis to be cut off; there is no way I'm going to piss God off by doing it. Mankind is nuts, both for coming up with outrageous practices and for perpetuating them.
post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by brant31 View Post
I struggled with this issue for years (decades, actually), since my lineage is Jewish and I really believed -- or was brainwashed -- that the matter was a "done deal" as per instructions from God. Even though circumcision was completely repulsive to me and I could see on an intellectual level that it made no sense. It was a small factor in my conversion to Christianity in college.

Since then I've done a huge amount of research, and read some remarkable, scholarly books in the past few years that have really opened my eyes. Here is a summary I posted a little while back to another site:

Well, lots of people don't believe that God, or in this instance Yahweh, required circumcision at all. Much of the scholarly theological work of the past 20 years or so has come to the conclusion that circumcision was never prescribed by God, and that it was actually pushed by the (now discredited and gone) priests of Judaism as a way to rally and control the Hebrews when the priests were starting to lose their power. It was a practice well-known at the time (Babylonian period) but not generally practiced by the Hebrews, and the priests wove it clumsily back through their history, first orally and later in written form. It is not in dispute that the first 4 known iterations of the pentateuch (starting with what many now call the Book of J) make no reference to infant circumcision; the fifth version - the basis for our current Old Testament - has a somewhat awkward chapter 17 that looks to be little more than an elaboration of Chapter 15, but with circumcision thrown in. Scholars refer to this latter version of the pentateuch (or Torah) as the Book of P, a reference to the priests who apparently re-wrote it.

The procedure the priests advocated wasn't awfully controversial; it involved cutting just the overhanging tip of the newborn's foreskin and even a father could do it more or less successfully with a knife. This seems to have been the course for about 300 hundred years until the Hellenic period, when it was highly out of fashion to be cut, and some younger Jewish men sought to reverse their half-circumcisions through stretching (epispasm). The rabbis became alarmed -- the corrupt priests were long-gone -- and ordered up a whole new type of circumcision contemplated nowhere in Genesis. This one came in 3 parts: cutting the skin (milah), tearing the binding synechia between the glans and foreskin of newborns (periah) and severing any skin that might touch the glans, and then sucking the wound for 30 seconds (metzitza). This rather severe new modification to circumcision also required the introduction of an entirely new profession also not mentioned anywhere in the Bible: the mohel, or skilled circumcision practitioner, since this newly prescribed surgery was unsafe in the hands of most new dads. The party thrown today (bris) so the community of friends and relatives can witness the newborn's foreskin being cut off also has no biblical or divine basis; it likely evolved as a way to prevent parents from backing out of the more extensive circumcision through peer pressure.

When examined critically, it seems pretty obvious that circumcision is man-made, not divinely ordained. Even if one were utterly convinced of the facts of Genesis 17 (a stretch, since even moderate scholars agree that Abraham was likely mythical), there is no evidence that the radical circumcision seen today had anything to do with Old Testament instructions or practice. It emerged as an extreme response by clergy to perceived vanity in a culture that idolized male nudity and integrity.


If one accepts these historical facts, it stands to reason that God not only did not prescribe or condone the radical circumcision we see today, but it would be an affront. Not only do I take great comfort in knowing that my God did not order half the skin of my son's penis to be cut off; there is no way I'm going to piss God off by doing it. Mankind is nuts, both for coming up with outrageous practices and for perpetuating them.
Thank you, this was very informative. I feel the same way if God did not want my son to have foreskin then he would be born without it.
post #15 of 38
Thread Starter 
Agreed...
Oh My.. I have so much reading to do..

I just read that part in Genesis recently, and it seems pretty cut & dry the way I read it. So it is fascinating to hear what you wrote brant31.

Neither of my boys are circumsized. It was a hard decision for us to make (not because of religion,) just because it is not deemed medically neccessary (at least in Canada.) It is not covered by our normal healthcare either.

Anyway, my first boy was a 34 weeker in the NICU with heart problems. On the day he was to be released, the PEd. told us that he could circumsize if we wanted. My husband was at work, and I was there and I just couldn't do it. I wa stoo worried after all he had been through that his heart couldn't take it (even though the Ped. said he would be fine..) And I think about that and wonder, How could God not have been there with me, to help me make that decision? It was the right thing to do I think for us.

I don't judge at all though, almost all of our friends kids are circ'd.. Actually its about 50/50 I think...

H
post #16 of 38
Brant, can you cite your sources I might have use of the this information in the future. Specifically this part: ( I'm already familiar with the changes made as a reaction to Hellenism)

Quote:
Well, lots of people don't believe that God, or in this instance Yahweh, required circumcision at all. Much of the scholarly theological work of the past 20 years or so has come to the conclusion that circumcision was never prescribed by God, and that it was actually pushed by the (now discredited and gone) priests of Judaism as a way to rally and control the Hebrews when the priests were starting to lose their power. It was a practice well-known at the time (Babylonian period) but not generally practiced by the Hebrews, and the priests wove it clumsily back through their history, first orally and later in written form. It is not in dispute that the first 4 known iterations of the pentateuch (starting with what many now call the Book of J) make no reference to infant circumcision; the fifth version - the basis for our current Old Testament - has a somewhat awkward chapter 17 that looks to be little more than an elaboration of Chapter 15, but with circumcision thrown in. Scholars refer to this latter version of the pentateuch (or Torah) as the Book of P, a reference to the priests who apparently re-wrote it.
Is this from Who Wrote the Bible? I read it years ago and can't remember now.
post #17 of 38
nak but subbing for later!
post #18 of 38
I've been trying to find the source and came across this:

Quote:
There is another sense in which the term "circumcise" is used in the Bible. Deut 10:16 says: "Circumcise the foreskin of your heart," (also quoted in Jer 4:4, New JPS translates as: "Cut away, therefore, the thickening about your hearts") along with Jer 6:10: To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: ... (New JPS translates: "Their ears are blocked"). Some interpret this as giving the rite a spiritual meaning; circumcision as a physical act being enjoined nowhere in the book. Jer 9:25-26 says that circumcised and uncircumcised will be punished alike by the Lord; for "all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart." The New JPS translation adds the note: "uncircumcised of heart: I.e., their minds are blocked to God's commandments." Non-Jewish tribes that practiced circumcision were described as being "circumcised in uncircumcision."(Jeremiah 9:24)
post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Brant, can you cite your sources I might have use of the this information in the future.

Is this from Who Wrote the Bible? I read it years ago and can't remember now.

Hi Arduinna!

There are now numerous sources that agree on this, but one of the earliest and clearest is from a book called The Book of J. It lays out the evolution of the present-day pentateuch in some detail.
post #20 of 38
Thanks I hadn't heard of that one.
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