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Originally Posted by RainRaven
 Thank you, this was very informative. I feel the same way if God did not want my son to have foreskin then he would be born without it.
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Originally Posted by chabad.org
Males could have been created without the foreskin, yet G-d wanted us to remove it ourselves. This was to demonstrate that as we complete the physical appearance of our bodies, so can we perfect the contours of our personalities and the shapes of our souls.3
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Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry
The Book of J is a very controversial example of the school of Biblical Criticism. It can't be assumed to be 'historical fact' in any sense of the word at all -- it is an academic theory.
If you're born Jewish, I suppose you can take on whatever 'beliefs' you want about where Torah comes from. But I must say I don't really get it -- if you feel compelled/called/drawn to convert to Judaism, but reject the Torah, what exactly is it you are converting to? The reason it is not so easy to convert to "Orthodox Judaism" (which was the only Judaism until the 1800's) is that the Torah and the mitzvos give to us by G-d that are in the Torah is binding and obligatory for all Jews. But only for Jews. Non-Jews who like certain teachings of the Torah, or are dedicated to the worship of One G-d without an intercessor, or are moved by the powerful message of morality and ethics demonstrated in the Torah, can all of course believe and do as they wish. But why take on the name and mitzvos of Judaism when one rejects the premise that the Torah is Divine and that its mitzvos are binding? I'm not trying to be snarky; I simply don't understand this. If you don't want to do the mitzva of bris milah for your sons, then why take on a spiritual path of which this is an integral and obligatory part? Same goes for any other mitzva, by the way -- kashrus, keeping Shabbos, keeping the laws of family purity, keeping shatnez, observing holidays in certain ways -- I mean, all of these mitzvos are equally binding, whether or not they 'resonate' or are 'relevant' on a daily basis. If you are a born Jew and decide not to practice, well, everyone has free choice and makes their own decisions. But why opt into a religion and then reject its basic premise? I don't really understand this. |
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Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry
The Book of J is a very controversial example of the school of Biblical Criticism. It can't be assumed to be 'historical fact' in any sense of the word at all -- it is an academic theory.
If you're born Jewish, I suppose you can take on whatever 'beliefs' you want about where Torah comes from. But I must say I don't really get it -- if you feel compelled/called/drawn to convert to Judaism, but reject the Torah, what exactly is it you are converting to? The reason it is not so easy to convert to "Orthodox Judaism" (which was the only Judaism until the 1800's) is that the Torah and the mitzvos give to us by G-d that are in the Torah is binding and obligatory for all Jews. But only for Jews. Non-Jews who like certain teachings of the Torah, or are dedicated to the worship of One G-d without an intercessor, or are moved by the powerful message of morality and ethics demonstrated in the Torah, can all of course believe and do as they wish. But why take on the name and mitzvos of Judaism when one rejects the premise that the Torah is Divine and that its mitzvos are binding? I'm not trying to be snarky; I simply don't understand this. If you don't want to do the mitzva of bris milah for your sons, then why take on a spiritual path of which this is an integral and obligatory part? Same goes for any other mitzva, by the way -- kashrus, keeping Shabbos, keeping the laws of family purity, keeping shatnez, observing holidays in certain ways -- I mean, all of these mitzvos are equally binding, whether or not they 'resonate' or are 'relevant' on a daily basis. If you are a born Jew and decide not to practice, well, everyone has free choice and makes their own decisions. But why opt into a religion and then reject its basic premise? I don't really understand this. |
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Originally Posted by Belleweather
Thirdly, there is a 4000 year old tradition of struggling with parts of the Jewish text and tradition; with studying and reading and thinking and searching ourselves to find out what it is that God wants from us. What kind of Jew would I be setting myself up to be -- or would you be setting all converts up to be -- if we had to be perfectly sure of everything, perfectly comfortable and perfectly observant from the moment we poked our heads out of the Mikvah?
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Originally Posted by Ms. Cellaneous
Nicakarolaberry, I understand the point you're making about why would someone choose to take on a faith when they disagree with the basic tenets of that religion. I think the disconnect is how one defines "basic tenets." To use an example other than circumcision, I don't plan on keeping kosher after I convert... my husband never has, and I don't think abstaining from shellfish is important. I do think observing Shabbat and giving to charity and working for good in my community are important parts of Judaism, so that's what I'm focussing on. And in the community I am joining, which is the Reform community, I'm encouraged to make those choices, thoughtfully and carefully, for myself. I guess that is pretty much the definition of buffet-style Judaism, but I don't think it's a casual thing. It's a conscious choice to engage and study and think about these issues -- which, not to be snarky but it's true, is way more than my husband has ever done vis a vis his Judaism.
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Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry
Here's the thing, though. (And I mean this in all sincerity, am not sniping/snarking, and am impressed with the level of engaged thought here -- my disagreement is not the same thing as disrespect).
The Torah is a blueprint for living a Jewish life. Wrestling with the Torah and its meaning is one thing -- choosing which mitzvot are 'meaningful' is quite another. Why? Because Judaism isn't only about how we feel about G-d. It's also about our responsibility to act in a way which brings holiness and G-dliness into this world. How do we do this? By following the mitzvot. G-d Himself gave us the exact tools with which to not only feel His presence, but also with which to properly bring Him into our lives in a very concrete way. The problem is, if you only read/accept the Written Torah, you're missing a lot. That's because G-d also gave us (through Moshe Rabbeinu -- Moses, our Teacher) the Oral Torah. It was passed down faithfully, in its entirety, orally, for about 1700 years -- until the Roman decimation of the Jewish land and people in Eretz Israel made it nearly impossible to ensure the transmission to the next generation. The Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi wrote it down (Mishna) in 200CE and by 500 CE it was completed by the Gaonim (rabbinical leaders) in Babylon. The Oral Torah is just as important, because it fills in the details. And it's just as Divinely given. While the Rabbis wrestle with aspects of the Torah, seeking out its hidden meanings, they *never* dispute the inherent justice/truth of a mitzvah. That's the difference. There is always a fundamental commitment to the mitzvah itself; the details and the logistics are the place of debate. Also important to remember: we consider the Torah to have three levels of meaning. Pashut (simple) -- based on the simple reading of the text (obvious meaning); D'rash (deeper meaning); and Sod (literally secret -- this would be the Kabbalistic/mystical meaning). It is impossible to understand Torah from only the Pashut level, as most of us do. Rabbis and sages literally spend their *entire lives* deciphering and studying, to derive meanings at the levels of d'rash and sod. So it seems, well, a little bit presumptuous (?) to assume one understands all the ramifications of what a mitzvah represents based on a simple reading. I'm not saying anyone here is presumptuous or simple -- rather that there is much more than meets the eye. It's also the idea that every letter, every word, every syllable, even every vowel sound and pause in the Hebrew of the Torah is significant on a very deep level. There are no accidents, and no coincidences in the Torah. So, does G-d care which pan you cook your oatmeal in? Does He care whether you give up pork if you become Jewish? Does He care if you touch your husband when you are in your cycle? Simple answer -- yes. Not because He wants to punish. But because you have relinquished an opportunity to get closer to Him, to bring His presence into the world in a tangible way, according to the Torah He gave us Himself. It's a lost opportunity. |
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