those nursing---supply correlate to calorie intake?

[LBMarie9]

so honestly i am having a problem---when we went off dairy and I had weeks of menu logs--and I had GAINED weight I thought maybe I had consumed extra calories--well on average i had been having 900-1200 TOTAL----SOOOO I have been trying to get atleast 1500 calories at LEAST and struggle to get even that----aNYWAY my real question is---do those of you that have an even more restricted diet than me--are you having enough calories? and when you don't get enough calories does your supply directly suffer?

I FEAR that I am going to lose my milk (i know that's not really possible)--but extra sucking isn't helping--I tried Fenegreek and thought it helped but DD seemed to be spitting up more with it. ---the times over the last 4 months that I have been away from home and eaten all the white processed stuff and crap--the same 24 hours it seemed---i had a great supply. but I can't do this all the time. I have already filled my calories with extra nuts and seeds and healthy fats-- my options are PRETTY limited (I know I probably need like 500 more a day to 2000) but if I fill those with only nuts--that is WAY too much fat---and I get too full!! i can't eat anymore fruits or veggies.

I get sick with meat, off dairy/egg/soy--trying gluten this week (which might be why my supply seems NON existant)--

since Birth my DD always made it like 3 hrs between feedings (till we took out dairy 4 months ago) anyway it's getting worse and worse and when she wants to eat more often--there is nothing there--

I tried to let her suck lots more often but that didn't help at all- (she is 7mo now)--I'm worried she's not getting enough--her weight is dropping i can tell (though she was huge to begin with)--and I can't give her extra calories in solids becuase we aren't baseline right now!!! ah!

sorry to rant and rage--everyone remind and tell me that it's not possible that my supply just venishes one day--it just feels like that.

just wanted to see if when you are having low calories if you produce enough milk--and if yes--maybe I have something else going on I can't figure out! THANKS

[LaurieG]

There is a lot I want to address in your post but don't have the time right now. Mainly the idea I want to pass along is that a lot of things can give the impression that your supply is low when it really isn't. A 7 month old BF baby normally gets much leaner than the earlier days as he/she becomes more active. Do you have a way to check her weight?

As to your main question - my supply kept up to the detriment of me as long as I drink enough water. I did notice a supply drop when I tried to exercise and I wasn't getting enough calories. But I've had a really borderline low supply all along due to dd's suck issues, so I guess I can't really say for sure low calories didn't play a role. I definitely have struggled to get enough calories - at first I wasn't counting but just eating when hungry and I went from 125 to 102 lbs!! A nutritionist analyzed my diet and said I was getting about 1800-2000 calories and a good mix of fats and proteins which "should" be adequate but clearly it wasn't. So I went up to 2500 cals and didn't gain anything. So now I'm on 3000-3200 cals / day and only gained 5 lbs and then plateaued. I eat tons of nuts every day - all day long. But I haven't noticed a correlation with supply - just weight loss/ gain.

HTH's -

[crunchy_mama]

No supply issues that I have really noticed, only correlated w/ my cycle. the week before my period my supply totally tanks. Now that I am working out again I have to work on getting even more calories, mostly by adding nuts, seeds and fats as I feel I am getting a good amount of protein- I have been experimenting w/ various carbs as well seeing what I can eat and how I feel.

[nalo]

I noticed a slight drop in milk when I was on the TED but nothing that affected DD really. I do not have decreased milk with my current ED (but I also don't have that much cut out). Just keep your calories up with whatever foods you are eating and drink TONS of water.

[kjbrown92]

Are you just off dairy, soy, gluten, egg? You said meat makes you feel sick -- all meat or just beef? Can you do chicken? turkey? pork? fish?

I'm just wondering if we can brainstorm more food ideas for you to get you more food. Like if meat makes you feel sick, can you make bone broth and eat that? That's full of good nutrients and gets you liquid and nourishment.

I never had an issue with supply but I was only avoiding milk with DS. All the other kids' food issues were after weaning. So I'm no help there.

[changingseasons]

Just a quick note- my LC told me that fenugreek is in the peanut family, so it's possible to be allergic, especially if there are nut allergies.

[LBMarie9]

Originally Posted by LaurieG

There is a lot I want to address in your post but don't have the time right now. Mainly the idea I want to pass along is that a lot of things can give the impression that your supply is low when it really isn't. A 7 month old BF baby normally gets much leaner than the earlier days as he/she becomes more active. Do you have a way to check her weight?

As to your main question - my supply kept up to the detriment of me as long as I drink enough water. I did notice a supply drop when I tried to exercise and I wasn't getting enough calories. But I've had a really borderline low supply all along due to dd's suck issues, so I guess I can't really say for sure low calories didn't play a role. I definitely have struggled to get enough calories - at first I wasn't counting but just eating when hungry and I went from 125 to 102 lbs!! A nutritionist analyzed my diet and said I was getting about 1800-2000 calories and a good mix of fats and proteins which "should" be adequate but clearly it wasn't. So I went up to 2500 cals and didn't gain anything. So now I'm on 3000-3200 cals / day and only gained 5 lbs and then plateaued. I eat tons of nuts every day - all day long. But I haven't noticed a correlation with supply - just weight loss/ gain.

HTH's -

anxiously awaiting your reply.

i am okay with a little bit of chicken so I have been upping that--but I don't like to have more than 1/2 to 1 breast a day. I am not worried about nutrient intake---just calorie--honestly i think I am the only one in this world with this problem--as soon as I slack with my snacks (upping the natural calorie level i would feel full and sufficient eating) I GAIN weight! my body is messed up. and I CANNOT lose weight--i wonder if I ate lots more calories i would lose weight but am having a hard time. eveyone says to add oil to everything and nuts, etc and I do that a lot already (and do it alot for my son for SURE) but feel if i do more than I will have too much percentage of my calories from fat. I get pretty good protein through my small amoun of chicken and LOTS of greens!!! (a lot have 50% protein) i get sick if I have too much olive oil as well.

any suggestions would be great. i just think I'm doing well not GAINING weight--it seems like when I don't plan well--i would rather just not eat then have a reaction (a good choice think)--

I have been having a green smoothie for breakfast usually.
a huge green salad with lots of veggies and nuts and seeds for lunch (with basalmic vinegar and olive oil dressing)
and usually a soup or bean based meal at night--sometimes with a little chicken---lots of veggies, etc.
I'll snack on veggies with avacado sometimes--or salsa

any ideas would be greatly appreciated--maybe it is NOT my calories that is the supply problem (and maybe I'm just over worrying and my supply is fine)--my daughter doesn't seem satisfied anymore---and once she hit 3 months (she's 7 mo) she all of a sudden was a VERY efficient nurser---she would be done in 5-10 min (which worries me for hindmilk)---and she is still that quick (though I'll let her suck longer very often trying to get more milk)--

YEs she very well might be losing weight becuase of growing and being active---she is crawling a LOT and is standing up on things now.

we are going to her 1st dr appointment in like 5 months next week so we'll see how much she weighs and what percent (hopefully they don't freak me out about it--she was above the 100% for a couple months)

she also slept through the night until we went off dairy- (kind of an opposite effect you want right?!)--but I thought that just had to do with my supply--and she was just more hungry at night.

[crunchy_mama]

I would think that you are in starvation mode with so few calories. I don't make it a habit to count calories, because then I get a bit neurotic. However, on days I do check it is not surprising for me to hit 3000. These days I am doing high intensity exercise so burning an extra 500 or so so I need extra, but never do I eat below 2000 unless I have the stomach flu. Personally I would get over the fat fear or start eating some more meat. I would add some fat to that smoothie. Also, for me until I cut the gluten it didn't matter how little or many calories I ate I couldn't lose. Now, it is much more regulated and with working out I have to work on eating extra as to not lose- as right now I don't need to lose weight.

[LBMarie9]

hmmm maybe being off glutten will be the key for me. of course my dd comes first and i need an adequate supply---even if I am dangerously overweight while I nurse her. I guess the ony ideas I've heard is to add fats---so I guess I'll do that---hopefully it will help my supply

[LaurieG]

Well, I didn't get a chance to come back and finish until now and in the mean time you've already gotten a lot of what I was going to say. I agree that your body could be in starvation mode, holding on to the weight and that by increasing healthy fats in your diet you might see a change. Also, I wanted to look more closely at what is leading you to question your supply. At 7 months a lot of "normal" baby behavior can give the impression that your supply is low. I'm not saying you don't have a supply issue, but I just wanted to throw that out there for you to consider. Babies at this age typically don't linger at the breast - they get in and get it done so they can move on, and they also tend to slim down and be a bit fussier / less content than the earlier months. And your breasts often don't feel as full as they did earlier on, etc. I've run in to a lot of moms who are convinced their supply has tanked at about this age, myself included. So the big moment of truth will be next week for the weigh in. If you have a scale at home or a friend has one you could get an idea by weighing yourself with and without baby and then checking the growth charts to see where your dd is now.

The 2 best suggestions, IMO, are push the fluids and push the healthy fats.

Good luck!

[Panserbjorne]

I'll come back when I can see straight. Fenugreek is up there with the allergens. There are other things (nettles, blessed thistle, alfalfa, goat's rue in some cases) that are wonderful galactagogues and better options for food allergic mamas.

Inflammation can affect the endocrine system and potentially depress or elevate supply. Weight gain is the body's way of trying to dilute toxins. This will happen if you are consuming too few calories and those you are consuming are allergens. It's also why people lose 10 pounds the first week they go off allergens. The body has no need to dilute any longer. I would get the gluten out pronto and I will be back tomorrow after some much needed sleep.

Ultimately it's about nourishment, not so much about calories. You can fare quite well on a low cal diet, but I would NOT sacrifice good fats. Low calorie diets the way they are billed are dangerous. Ones full of nutrient dense foods are not always an issue. I'm sorry, I'm rambling now.

Hugs to you mama, you are NOT alone. I promise to be more functional tomorrow.

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by LBMarie9

hmmm maybe being off glutten will be the key for me. of course my dd comes first and i need an adequate supply---even if I am dangerously overweight while I nurse her. I guess the ony ideas I've heard is to add fats---so I guess I'll do that---hopefully it will help my supply

There are always gf grains to help w/ the calorie intake- if you tolerate them. It wouldn't be my first choice personally, but it is a thought. As far as adding fats it would be really easy to add a couple of Ts of coconut oil to that smoothie (just make sure to do it before you add the super cold ingredients and incorporate it well). I would almost bet that going gf will make a big difference for you. On gluten I have a much harder time eating a balanced diet and found my hunger cues all messed up.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by LBMarie9

so honestly i am having a problem---when we went off dairy and I had weeks of menu logs--and I had GAINED weight I thought maybe I had consumed extra calories--well on average i had been having 900-1200 TOTAL----SOOOO I have been trying to get atleast 1500 calories at LEAST and struggle to get even that----aNYWAY my real question is---do those of you that have an even more restricted diet than me--are you having enough calories? and when you don't get enough calories does your supply directly suffer?
My supply was low to begin with, but calories weren't the issue so much as nutrition was.

I FEAR that I am going to lose my milk (i know that's not really possible)--but extra sucking isn't helping--I tried Fenegreek and thought it helped but DD seemed to be spitting up more with it. ---the times over the last 4 months that I have been away from home and eaten all the white processed stuff and crap--the same 24 hours it seemed---i had a great supply. but I can't do this all the time. I have already filled my calories with extra nuts and seeds and healthy fats-- my options are PRETTY limited (I know I probably need like 500 more a day to 2000) but if I fill those with only nuts--that is WAY too much fat---and I get too full!! i can't eat anymore fruits or veggies.
Did you have an oversupply to start with?

I get sick with meat, off dairy/egg/soy--trying gluten this week (which might be why my supply seems NON existant)--
Sadly you wouldn't be the only one to experience that....but when you say you were eating white processed crap, was that GF white processed crap? Or was your supply up even eating gluten and NOW it's down?

since Birth my DD always made it like 3 hrs between feedings (till we took out dairy 4 months ago) anyway it's getting worse and worse and when she wants to eat more often--there is nothing there--
I know this is hard, but there is no real way to evaluate what is or isn't there. The baby will nurse frequently during a growth spurt to increase supply. That *may* be what is happening. What is her output like? IF there isn't enough you will see a decrease there. Know too that babies who are reluxing (which is common with ingestion of allergens) will nurse more frequently as it feels good on their throats....but it's the ACTION and not the milk they are looking for. Is she distressed?

I tried to let her suck lots more often but that didn't help at all- (she is 7mo now)--I'm worried she's not getting enough--her weight is dropping i can tell (though she was huge to begin with)--and I can't give her extra calories in solids becuase we aren't baseline right now!!! ah!
If she is more physically active this will happen naturally. Babies always grow, but they don't always gain. There's a difference. Again, how is she acting?

sorry to rant and rage--everyone remind and tell me that it's not possible that my supply just venishes one day--it just feels like that.
Not unless you are SUPER sensitive! Are you keeping fluids up?

just wanted to see if when you are having low calories if you produce enough milk--and if yes--maybe I have something else going on I can't figure out! THANKS

As I said last night, in my experience working with moms and babies calories aren't as much of an issue as nutrition. I'm sorry you are going through this stressful period!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by LBMarie9

hmmm maybe being off glutten will be the key for me. of course my dd comes first and i need an adequate supply---even if I am dangerously overweight while I nurse her. I guess the ony ideas I've heard is to add fats---so I guess I'll do that---hopefully it will help my supply

ARE you overweight right now? It isn't healthy for your dd (especially while she is nursing) for you to be dangerously overweight. Obesity indicates a deeper issue and lack of nourishment. When people are obese there are several things happening, generally the biggest is that they are starving. Generally there are endocrine issues, food allergies as well as toxins. We can definitely talk more about this.

Just to be clear you don't hurt her by being overweight, but the issues that are leading to one being overweight are present in the feeding. Does that make sense?

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Just a quick note- my LC told me that fenugreek is in the peanut family, so it's possible to be allergic, especially if there are nut allergies.

It's a legume and very tied to soy allergies. Nuts aren't legumes, but peanuts are. There is some cross-reactivity but if she's reacting to fenugreek I'd watch all beans.

[LBMarie9]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

It's a legume and very tied to soy allergies. Nuts aren't legumes, but peanuts are. There is some cross-reactivity but if she's reacting to fenugreek I'd watch all beans.

oh good--something else to cut out...no thank you I didn't know that and it's a bummer to find out..wow- I'll have to watch.

I REALLY really appreciate you all helping--i really would love some advice in this regard--and didn't want to write a novel to ask others.

Yes I am overweight---my BMI is 28.8--so almost into OBese range (thought I'd say it's obese to my own standards)---
We are VERY VERY healthy--I get more than enough nutrients from what I eat--we have been off gluten for 4 days and it hasn't been that hard--i used to just have maybe 1-2 servings grain anyways (made homeade WW bread)
After the baby I was gaining weight until I realized I was eating low calories (when I eat very nutrient dense food it fills me up very quickly)--but honestly I DO feel my hunger may be stunted becuase I could go without eating awhile and not feel hungry.

we went off dairy and soy and eggs (DS IgE allergy to eggs)--and I didn't lose even one poud going off those "allergens" though--they are the allergens of my kids--I never have thought about me and my allergens. ----my family was all worried about my weight and I was too--if I was going to become diabetic or something--that was a bigger concern than BFing my daughter, etc---

SO i got a full panel blood test done (my mom was SURE I was insulin resitant becuase I have a LOT a LOT of weight in my tummy!) ---but all the numbers came back awesome! i had been hypoglycemic before(4 years ago)-- but gotten rid of all symptoms of that. these are fasting results:
tryglycerides100
Cholesterol 134
HDL - 28 (low- want it higher!)
LDL-86

Glucose 80
Insulin 4 (they want it lower than 17)
everything else normal--if you want specifics (could help you maybe see a problem)
my Carbon Dioxide- level was a little low--is should be 21-33 and it was 19.
my TSH (thyroid right?) was 2.59 and should be .40-4.50 (i was wondering about my thyroid becuase I have numb hands and feet at night)
anyways--the dr was a jerk and told me theres no way I was having that low of calories and gaining weight and i was just obese blah blah--what a jerk and NO help. for the record--since I started doing green smoothies---I have felt SOo much energy--I didn't think I had a thyroid problem becuase I felt great--but jusst had the weight problem!

I had never thought that what is causing the stuck weight could hurt my daughter--I just don't know where else to turn--drs have been no help--I have just been like--okay whatever--I'll just keep going and can't figure out anything. (i CANNOT lose weight--even going off dairy, gluten, etc ,etc ,etc- I stay the same now- if i keep my calorie intake up)

any help of direction would be much appreciated. if you made it this far--thank you!

my kids are another issue and concern--DD7mo seems to be baseline )except not sleeping) if I avoid dairy and soy....haven't gotten DS2 baseline--which is why we are trialing gluten--his rast test showed Eggs as igE.

[Panserbjorne]

I will tell you something though...the numbers don't suprise me. In fact your body has a whole lot of innate wisdom and I have a hard time when people talk about what's wrong with their bodies. It KNOWS what it's doing and sometimes we need to trust that. It doesn't mean not searching for answer, it means searching in a different way.

I am wondering about toxins. I need to know more about your actual picture but something to think about is this: your body will not ALLOW weight loss if there are toxins circulating. It's not about nutrition at that point. It's about protection. IF you lost weight whatever toxins are present would be deposited directly into your milk. So YAY for your body for being so wise!

Are you depressed, or do you have any signs of depression? With your HDL that low I'd be wondering about seratonin production. Do you feel that your moods are off?

I dont' think your appetite is suppressed, I think it's normalizing. You shouldn't have hunger signs every few hours. If you are suddenly experiencing a lack of need to eat often it's a sign *to me* that the allergens are gone and that you aren't in withdrawal. Again, a good sign. even if you are eating low cal you are being nourished *if you have a good diet.* Low zinc can suppress appetite but what you are describing sounds to me like you are normalizing.

That tingling could be several things from anemia to B-12 deficiency....lets keep brainstorming for you.

[LBMarie9]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

I will tell you something though...the numbers don't suprise me. In fact your body has a whole lot of innate wisdom and I have a hard time when people talk about what's wrong with their bodies. It KNOWS what it's doing and sometimes we need to trust that. It doesn't mean not searching for answer, it means searching in a different way.

I am wondering about toxins. I need to know more about your actual picture but something to think about is this: your body will not ALLOW weight loss if there are toxins circulating. It's not about nutrition at that point. It's about protection. IF you lost weight whatever toxins are present would be deposited directly into your milk. So YAY for your body for being so wise!

Are you depressed, or do you have any signs of depression? With your HDL that low I'd be wondering about seratonin production. Do you feel that your moods are off?

I dont' think your appetite is suppressed, I think it's normalizing. You shouldn't have hunger signs every few hours. If you are suddenly experiencing a lack of need to eat often it's a sign *to me* that the allergens are gone and that you aren't in withdrawal. Again, a good sign. even if you are eating low cal you are being nourished *if you have a good diet.* Low zinc can suppress appetite but what you are describing sounds to me like you are normalizing.

That tingling could be several things from anemia to B-12 deficiency....lets keep brainstorming for you.

WOW I never thought about the fact that if I lost weight I'd be releasing toxins to my DD--I bet it would be a LOT too! I know other people don't "think" this is a healthy way of eating but I have been eating almost like the "Eat to Live" way for almost 2 years now...(without the SOY of course)and a LOT more fat--and only recently have I upped the green smoothies and tried to do a lot of other things---I honestly KNOW that this puts your body through a detox--hmmm never thought abotu what that might mean for my daughter while BFing.
a lot of what you said makes sense to me---
as for moods--I feel like they are up and down a LOT (if you asked my husband)--of COURSE I'm having a hard time getting used to my TWO kids--and we moved a couple months ago to grad school away from fam into a TEENY tiny apt (as in me and the kis have a 4x5 space in the family room to play and eveyrthing else is walking space)--and add the STRESS of trying to figure out allergies-as well as milk supply, etc on top of that. I guess I'm saying I'm not sure I am depressed-but I sure do struggle every other day.

I know exercise can raise my HDL--that WILL raise seratonin levels as well right?

the "normalizing" hunger sounds right on to me (it just doesn't help when I'm supposedly needing more calories and i do not feel hungry)----before i ate healthy I had hypoglycemia --and what I thought was hunger was withdrawals from meat and things like that (the lightheaded, sick, empty stomach feeling) I hadn't ever felt true hunger before---true hunger doesn't seem to hurt at all!
thank you for your time and knowledge--when I try to brainstorm with my mom--it's a mess (she says to stop BFing, etc) and unless I really AM putting DD in "DANGER" I know Bfing is best for her.

[Panserbjorne]

You are NOT putting your dd in danger!!!!!! Even if you are detoxing the alternative is FAR worse. Babies can withstand some detox, it's just better to trust your body and the course it's taking.

Fuhrman would tell you to up the fat from the strict E2L. You are breastfeeding and it's necessary. He also supports the hunger/normalization theory FWIW.

IF you feel that you are detoxing there are things you can do to minimize what is passed in your breastmilk.

Stress zaps B vitamin and magnesium. Honestly, they are the first things to go. I would certainly (given what you are describing) make sure my intake was more than adequate. Given your diet (which I support, btw) it's going to need to be supplemental. Grains are our main source of B vites, that and liver. Given that E2L doesnt' allow more than one grain a day (and I don't agree with that....I'm a no grain gal) there's no way you are going to meet your dietary needs. If you are stressed (even if it's situational) you need the B's.

You need adequate amounts of cholesterol to PRODUCE adequate amounts of seratonin. That's something to think about. Yes, exercise will up it, but only so long as your body can produce it. If you are a low producer of cholesterol (some people are) then exercise may not be enough. Not saying this is the case-just something to keep in the back of your mind.

And with the depression/seratonin/cholersterol thing....the question to ask is if your moods correlate to the stress you are experiencing. Do you feel that you can handle things or do you come close to losing it, or lose it more often than the situation warrants? I'm not saying you are in a dangerous place, that's not the case. It's just something to think about. You may need dietary or supplemental cholesterol.

True hunger should NEVER hurt. If it hurts you are in withdrawal. Plain and simple. You are eating something or detoxing from something you should not be eating.

HTH.

[FireWithin]

Nak
I am obese. During prey and 7months pp, I lost 60 lbs.
I was getting close to the overweight level. Now two years later I am gaining again. I am horrified to consider this,but is it possible I lost all that weight, it really slipped off me like magic, is it possible that I detoxed through my son? That's really upsetting.
Also I just learned I have a problem with corn, maybe with it's removal things will get better