What are your thoughts about this counter argument?

[RomanCarmelMom]

That being offended by seeing a breast while a child is breastfeeding is equivalent to being offended by seeing a person's tongue when they are eating, as both can be sexual organs, yet the main function of both is for the nourishment of the human body.

[rivkah]

Originally Posted by RomanCarmelMom

That being offended by seeing a breast while a child is breastfeeding is equivalent to being offended by seeing a person's tongue when they are eating, as both can be sexual organs, yet the main function of both is for the nourishment of the human body.

Brilliant! Could make a similar argument with hands, I suppose (not nourishment, but other vital functions).

[MaryJaneLouise]

I think it's a great analogy.

I remember once a German speaking friend saying that she couldn't believe how much American / English speakers stuck out their tongues when we speak, and that is was kind of gross . She said she had the hardest time making the english "th" sound because she didn't want people to see her tongue. So that just goes to show how cultural things like this are.

[Romana]

I think the problem with the argument is that someone might argue the following:

Yes, sometimes seeing a bit of tongue is incidental to eating. However, polite people do everything possible (short of wearing a veil or hood) to minimize or eliminate other people seeing their tongue or inside of their mouth while eating. It's only polite and respectful to close your mouth while chewing and minimize how much of the inside of your mouth people see. Anyone who doesn't do this is being rude and is an exhibitionist. Just because your tongue is a part of your body and naturally used for eating food doesn't mean I want to have to see your tongue while you do it. Keep that thing in your mouth and your mouth closed! The least you could do is be discreet about it out of respect for others.

I see the virtue of the argument but also that weakness. I actually think hands might be a better example, except that hands aren't very sexual, they just might end up part of a sexual experience, so it's not quite the same.

Also, when you're dealing with ignorant or very opinionated, close-minded people, frequently it doesn't matter how good your talking points are. If the opposition is due to lack of understanding/knowledge or insecurity/fear then logic isn't going to help much, unfortunately.

[kriket]

Originally Posted by MaryJaneLouise

I think it's a great analogy.

I remember once a German speaking friend saying that she couldn't believe how much American / English speakers stuck out their tongues when we speak, and that is was kind of gross . She said she had the hardest time making the english "th" sound because she didn't want people to see her tongue. So that just goes to show how cultural things like this are.

we had a German exchange student who made the same comments! She said that we "open our mouths very wide" We're a very jovial family too, so boisterous belly laughs kinda scared her a little at first!

I'm not sure that I would put a lot of thought into 'retorts' about BFing or NIP other then 'look away if it bothers you'

[RomanCarmelMom]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

I think the problem with the argument is that someone might argue the following:

Yes, sometimes seeing a bit of tongue is incidental to eating. However, polite people do everything possible (short of wearing a veil or hood) to minimize or eliminate other people seeing their tongue or inside of their mouth while eating. It's only polite and respectful to close your mouth while chewing and minimize how much of the inside of your mouth people see. Anyone who doesn't do this is being rude and is an exhibitionist. Just because your tongue is a part of your body and naturally used for eating food doesn't mean I want to have to see your tongue while you do it. Keep that thing in your mouth and your mouth closed! The least you could do is be discreet about it out of respect for others.

I see the virtue of the argument but also that weakness. I actually think hands might be a better example, except that hands aren't very sexual, they just might end up part of a sexual experience, so it's not quite the same.

Also, when you're dealing with ignorant or very opinionated, close-minded people, frequently it doesn't matter how good your talking points are. If the opposition is due to lack of understanding/knowledge or insecurity/fear then logic isn't going to help much, unfortunately.

Thank you for all the responses so far!

I appreciate this feedback. What about the argument that even if someone shows more tongue than is considered polite, it would still be considered rude to ask that person to eat in the restroom, wear a mask to cover their mouth while eating, or to eat in the car? Would it not be considered to be cruel to shun this person and to request they be asked to stop eating or to leave the property? So, would comparing these two things to at least show that even if one doesn't agree with breastfeeding in public, that breastfeeding babies should be treated with the same courtesy and respect as any other person?

[velcromom]

I think it's more to the point to argue against the idea that someone else is responsible for "fixing" their feeling of being offended instead of arguing that they 'shouldn't' be offended in the first place. For example, when you are at a restaurant and you see someone doing something that you personally think is offensive, such as chewing with their mouth open. Do you feel free to call management over and ask that they tell the person to stop or to leave? Why not? Because you realize that even though you are not pleased with their behavior, you understand that no one is entitled to some divine "Right Not to Be Offended". You understand that when something offends you, it's you who has the responsibility to handle it by exercizing your right to ignore it. It's not the other person's responsibility to ensure your continued psychological comfort by changing their behavior.

Any argument that "I think it's offensive, rude, indiscreet, etc." can't be effectively used in this case, it isn't opposite or counter to the point. In this case I don't argue that they should not be offended, just that they are responsible for taking the offense in the first place, and that it's their responsibility to see to their own psychological comfort, not the nursing mother. It's another way of pointing out what our great grandmothers used to say - that offense is taken, not given. These days psychologists might say, "Who owns the problem?" to point out when someone is blaming another for their own choice.

[Mommal]

Originally Posted by RomanCarmelMom

That being offended by seeing a breast while a child is breastfeeding is equivalent to being offended by seeing a person's tongue when they are eating, as both can be sexual organs, yet the main function of both is for the nourishment of the human body.

Hmm... I like the argument, but honestly I'd be more inclined to say that being offended by the sight of a breast while I child is nursing is like being offended by the sight of a plate of food while someone is eating. Or like being offended by the sight of a bottle of formula.

[elizaMM]

I think it's an excellent analogy.

Romana9+2 has an interesting point, but I don't agree that tongues need to be hidden. I find mine to be a very expressive organ. If someone were to use her response I would ask for a valid reason for tongues to be used "discreetly".

I'm wondering if there is any rhyme or reason to any of our rules about what is "supposed" to be private. I'd really like to analyze the whole thing but now that I'm a mama I don't have time for such pleasures...

Originally Posted by RomanCarmelMom

What about the argument that even if someone shows more tongue than is considered polite, it would still be considered rude to ask that person to eat in the restroom, wear a mask to cover their mouth while eating, or to eat in the car? Would it not be considered to be cruel to shun this person and to request they be asked to stop eating or to leave the property? So, would comparing these two things to at least show that even if one doesn't agree with breastfeeding in public, that breastfeeding babies should be treated with the same courtesy and respect as any other person?

yes, yes and yes.

some of the others seem to be coming from the perspective that breasts are not sexual. I can see the merits of this argument, however, in order to be consistent, if I believed that, I'd have to be okay with going topless in public and with others doing so, and I'm afraid I just can't.

I bet someone has worked out the whole dilemma with regard to social mores etc. If anyone knows where one could read a concise breakdown of the arguments I would love to be enlightened.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by Romana9+2

Yes, sometimes seeing a bit of tongue is incidental to eating. However, polite people do everything possible (short of wearing a veil or hood) to minimize or eliminate other people seeing their tongue or inside of their mouth while eating. It's only polite and respectful to close your mouth while chewing and minimize how much of the inside of your mouth people see. Anyone who doesn't do this is being rude and is an exhibitionist. Just because your tongue is a part of your body and naturally used for eating food doesn't mean I want to have to see your tongue while you do it. Keep that thing in your mouth and your mouth closed! The least you could do is be discreet about it out of respect for others.

But if you compare the tongue to the nipple, now you're talking! Most nursing moms do try to minimize how much of their nipple shows...it's not always under THEIR control, but most do try. And you do show your tongue every time you "latch on" to a new bite of food

[mynetname]

Originally Posted by MaryJaneLouise

I think it's a great analogy.

I remember once a German speaking friend saying that she couldn't believe how much American / English speakers stuck out their tongues when we speak, and that is was kind of gross . She said she had the hardest time making the english "th" sound because she didn't want people to see her tongue. So that just goes to show how cultural things like this are.

Interesting: my cultural background one cannot lick ice cream (you have to bite it, ouch my teeth) as it is considered rude and sexual.

But no one blinks at women breastfeeding in public.

It would be considered very weird to think of breastfeeding as...weird or have to be "hidden".

So to OP good point to tell people

[psychethemuse]

I agree that it is a much better point when you change the original phrasing from breast to nipple. After all, that's what makes people seem to get the most offended about.

[beru]

Velcromom's post perfectly states my feelings on this.

Anyone has the right to be offended by breastfeeding in public. We all have our own sense of etiquette. However, society shouldn't prohibit something based on etiquette, either legally or socially. It's too subjective and variable.

[gini1313]

Originally Posted by elizaMM

some of the others seem to be coming from the perspective that breasts are not sexual. I can see the merits of this argument, however, in order to be consistent, if I believed that, I'd have to be okay with going topless in public and with others doing so, and I'm afraid I just can't.

I have to say that this was an issue for me long before I ever thought of breastfeeding a baby. I always was bothered by the sexism of men being able to go topless in our society, while women needed to be kept covered. Now that I have breastfed a baby and felt the discrimination that goes along with that, it bothers me even more.

As for tongues... I have to admit, I have never thought of my tongue or anyone elses as being sexual. I thought the thing about chewing with your mouth shut was because partially digested food is pretty gross looking And, because it makes a yucky noise

[gingerbane]

I think the problem with this argument is that everyone has a tongue but only women have breasts.

[Ann-Marita]

So, compare the tongue to the nipple. Everyone has nipples.

[MaryJaneLouise]

Originally Posted by gingerbane

I think the problem with this argument is that everyone has a tongue but only women have breasts.

Can you say moobs? (man boobs )

Men have breasts too They can even get breast cancer.

They just aren't (usually) as large as most women's are, and aren't (usually) used for breastfeeding.

[julie128]

It's rude to stick out your tongue at people, no?

Yesterday, we were at a playground and I noticed a woman nursing her baby under a blanket. I also noticed some covered Muslim women (not nursing), and I reflected that in many Muslim countries, mothers can nurse their babies with their breasts exposed, but they cannot show their faces. IMHO, breast exposure while breastfeeding is a cultural issue that needs to change, and change takes time. Have patience and persistence, and eventually, it will become the norm to NIP and not worry about breast exposure.

[MamaVolpe]

Thats a crazy comparison. If you want to compare an adult tounge you should compare it to seeing the childs tounge while nursing. The boob is the delivery system not part of the digestive system. A better comparison would be to compare the boob to a water bottle or water glass. Are those objects offensive to you? :

[Viola]

I like it, actually. Analogies are never perfect, but people who have issues with seeing body parts might also have an issue with seeing tongues, and would say that seeing a breast vs. seeing a bottle or plate of food just isn't the same. Although, really, the nipples on a bottle are supposed to represent the nipples on the breast, so I don't know why they are more acceptable. I mean if nipples are private, shouldn't the ones on bottles be private? Kind of like other body part substitutes.