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is hiting a sibling ever acceptible? - Page 2

post #21 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenelle View Post
I guess these are the kinds of things that I just handle on a situation-by-situation basis. I would have looked at DS1 and said "you need to keep out of her space, if she's not in the mood for hugging and kissing then you leave her alone and go do something else." And I would have looked at DD1 and said, "he shouldn't have been all over you for hugs and kisses, but it's not ok to hit either, and you know that. if this happens again, you get away from him and come tell me." Then I would have told them to give each other a hug, say they're sorry, move on and be nice.
Well put, this is how I would have handled it.
post #22 of 123
my kids hit each other and get pretty physical at times. I don't advocate it and would never suggest it.

In the OP scenario, I can't imagine changing my stance on violence over a kiss. A sibling being affectionate, to me, does not equate to sexual abuse. They are little kids, for goodness sake. Not a teenager trying to force a 4 yr old to kiss on the mouth. I mean, I get the self-defense aspect and yes, I would want my DD to do whatever possible to get someone off her if she was not consenting to their touch but a brother that close in age? while they're still under the age of ten? it just seems like an extreme reaction, IMO.

i wouldn't necessarily 'punish' either child in this case... talk about respecting each other's bodies, sure. I think they are both in the wrong, hitting or kissing without permission is not okay. I just happen to think this situation is very different than sexual abuse.
post #23 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
my kids hit each other and get pretty physical at times. I don't advocate it and would never suggest it.

In the OP scenario, I can't imagine changing my stance on violence over a kiss. A sibling being affectionate, to me, does not equate to sexual abuse. They are little kids, for goodness sake. Not a teenager trying to force a 4 yr old to kiss on the mouth. I mean, I get the self-defense aspect and yes, I would want my DD to do whatever possible to get someone off her if she was not consenting to their touch but a brother that close in age? while they're still under the age of ten? it just seems like an extreme reaction, IMO.

i wouldn't necessarily 'punish' either child in this case... talk about respecting each other's bodies, sure. I think they are both in the wrong, hitting or kissing without permission is not okay. I just happen to think this situation is very different than sexual abuse.
Well said.
post #24 of 123
If she really couldn't get to the parent for help, than yes - it's a case of self-defense. True, it isn't the same thing as sexual abuse, but it's the same principle - I want my kids to know they have a right to defend themselves from unwanted affection, as they would from aggression. The 6yo is also old enough to understand it wasn't appropriate behavior.

If the ages were reversed - well, I would be far less likely to believe the older child couldn't defend xemself without hitting in that case. I would still explain to the younger child that forcing kisses on people was not allowed.

BTW, when I first read this question I thought of the "punch-buggy" game I used to play with my brother when we were kids and saw a VW beetle.
Well, actually, I still play that game at 30. :
post #25 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
O.K for those who say it's never O.K to hit...

How would you imagine it happening? What SHOULD she have done instead?

If we teach our kids that it's not o.k to defend yourself, how will they know when they are 12, that it's O.K to kick the snot out of the 15 yr old cousin when he's trying to get her to take her clothes off?

I am NOT suggesting AT ALL that the older brother was being even remotely innapropriate. I think he was behaving perfectly normal for an older brother.

I am just saying that if our kids can't protect themselves from their brother, how can they know that it's different when it's a cousin, or big brother's new friend?

I'm ALSO not saying that what the little sister did was O.K. But, I don't think what she did was that bad either.

In our house, the major rule is "No means No, and stop means stop".
I think that their may be a fundamental disconnect going on here in this discussion. On the one hand you agree that the OP's little boy was engaging in developmentally appropriate behavior for his age and relationship with his sister, but you still seem to be conflating it with the issue of defending oneself against inappropriate touches.

I obviously don't have a daughter, but I think that I would have an ongoing discussion with her about physical boundaries and in/appropriate touching in an age appropriate manner that would be completely separate from any discussion of our house rule that siblings (and parents!) never hurt one another physically. Although part of our family discussion about the no hitting/hurting rule is that the kids come and talk to me about an upset or dispute instead of resorting to physical violence, so that may go so far in their heads to include coming to me if someone is trying to do something inappropriate to them.
post #26 of 123
Okay, I thinking comparing what this little boy did to assault is unreasonable. He didn't try to rape her or stab her or beat her or other forms of assault. I think you can teach little children about boundaries and personal space without telling them they deserve to be smacked, punched, hit, etc. I know I wouldn't allow one of my boy students to hit a girl if she tried to kiss him, I don't see why I would actively teach a girl to do so. I would tell both to come to me and work it out, and teach them about boundaries.
post #27 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquishyBuggles View Post
I think setting touching boundaries is completely acceptable, but I don't think that teaching them that hitting each other is acceptable.

I agree, we have limits on kissing/hugging (as in both have to agree to wanting to be kissed or hugged), but hitting is NEVER acceptable in our house.
post #28 of 123
I think hitting your sibling is acceptable if the sibling is on fire, and you are trying to put it out. My older daughter poured a cup of water on her sister because the sister was being annoying. My husband laid down the law: You are never permitted to pour a cup of water on your sister...unless she is on fire.

They still hit each other more at least every few days, it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
In the situation you describe though I would absolutely NOT be okay with my kids hitting each other. You were in the house, they are capable of moving their bodies. The harassed child should have gotten up and come to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amcal View Post
In the situation you described, no way it's not acceptable.

You're teaching him that her body is more important than his.
Yes, I agree with these responses. I will tell my children not to hit each other, even if they are getting hit by the other, and there are better ways to deal with it. If it comes down to escalating violence, things never go well. However, I also do explain that when you hit people or do things to people's bodies that they don't like (poking, pinching, tickling, kissing, touching, etc.) that you may get a physical response, like someone hitting you back. It's going to happen, I realize.

I thinking hitting, scratching, fighting to get away from someone who feels dangerous to you is an understandable response, and I think my children might naturally do that if they felt cornered, but the effectiveness could be quite variable, depending on the circumstances. Slapping in retaliation for getting a kiss is on the level of slapping in retaliation for getting a slap.
post #29 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolagirl View Post
On the one hand you agree that the OP's little boy was engaging in developmentally appropriate behavior for his age and relationship with his sister, but you still seem to be conflating it with the issue of defending oneself against inappropriate touches.

.
No. That's not at all what I mean. I truly do not think he was doing anything innapropriate.

But, let's say the older brother is touching his sister's hair. She says "stop it". He doesn't stop it. She says "stop". He doesn't stop. (he's a brother after all... that's what siblings do, they annoy each other)

Sure, she SHOULD go tell on him. But, instead she swipes at him and hits his hand really hard.

"Stop" should always mean stop. It doesn't matter what it is. If he is sitting on her stomach, pulling her hair, or getting in her face. She has the right to her own space and say "Stop". If she doesn't have the right to defend "stop it" or "no" with her own brother, she won't feel like she has the right to defend her space with the next older kid who tries to get in her space. The next time, it might not be her brother. Her brother might not be there to defend her.

I am just saying that every kid has the right to defend their personal space.

He's learning something from this too. Now when she says "Knock it off" he might take her more seriously.

I wish I'd had the nerve to bop my brother when he was picking on me. I was NEVER allowed to win an argument with him. Now, I can't win an argument with my husband. I don't even try. He gets mad, I back down immediately. But, what if, when I was four, I had hit my brother when he was yanking my hair? What if, when I hit him, my Mom had backed ME up and said "Well, leave her alone". Would I be better equipped to defend myself now? (not physically, just in a typical argument)

Again, the big brother was being normal. Not out of line at all. I just don't think she was that far out of line either.
post #30 of 123
How about if your mother equipped you with the tools to verbally stand up to your brother? How about if she taught you to be firm and assertive and then backed you up when you needed it?

I think that's what we're talking about. I don't think either child did anything horribly wrong, but I do think there is a better way. Teaching the child who is being touched but doesn't want to be to stand up for themselves. To be firm and assertive and to seek help when needed. And teaching the one who is doing the unwanted touching to respect boundaries. To me, those are the lessons that last a lifetime - instead of the lesson the kids in the OP learned - if you're being annoying you get hit and if you're being annoyed, it's ok to hit and the parents are fine with that.
post #31 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by amcal View Post
How about if your mother equipped you with the tools to verbally stand up to your brother? How about if she taught you to be firm and assertive and then backed you up when you needed it?

I don't think either child did anything horribly wrong, but I do think there is a better way. Teaching the child who is being touched but doesn't want to be to stand up for themselves. To be firm and assertive and to seek help when needed. And teaching the one who is doing the unwanted touching to respect boundaries.
yep, i totally 100,000% agree.

kids will hit, yell, test boundaries (especially younger children). i don't think their being "bad" or anything...they're just being kids! as parents, we need to teach, correct, be examples, help them, and equip them. very few instances in life will require physical retaliation....i'm not saying it will never happen, but *most* experiences in life where children resort to being physical, i have found at least 9 out 10 times there was a better way it could have been handled. i think the way the daughter reacted in this situation is totally and completely understandable. however, i agree that i would have discussed and brainstormed more acceptable ways it *could* have been handled and played out. with the brother, i would have discussed how he crossed his sister's personal boundaries, etc.
post #32 of 123
Thread Starter 
thanks for the advice. i have thought about it and if there is a next time, either bro to sis or sis to bro i will tell them both to stop, and have a convosation with them both about no hitting and that no means no,

earlier on today the same senario was reversed, DD1 wanted a Kiss off DS1, he said no, idont want one, no stop it, and i turned to them both and said "abbie, he said no, stop it, leave him be" she stoped. last night i must admit i was in cloud cookoo land tring to keep awake, not throw up and nurse the baby at the same time so i was not as on the ball.

i will be instituting a new rule, NO means NO, stop means stop, get off my head harrison means get off my head.

thanks again

kiz
post #33 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
No. That's not at all what I mean. I truly do not think he was doing anything innapropriate.

But, let's say the older brother is touching his sister's hair. She says "stop it". He doesn't stop it. She says "stop". He doesn't stop. (he's a brother after all... that's what siblings do, they annoy each other)

Sure, she SHOULD go tell on him. But, instead she swipes at him and hits his hand really hard.

"Stop" should always mean stop. It doesn't matter what it is. If he is sitting on her stomach, pulling her hair, or getting in her face. She has the right to her own space and say "Stop". If she doesn't have the right to defend "stop it" or "no" with her own brother, she won't feel like she has the right to defend her space with the next older kid who tries to get in her space. The next time, it might not be her brother. Her brother might not be there to defend her.

I am just saying that every kid has the right to defend their personal space.

He's learning something from this too. Now when she says "Knock it off" he might take her more seriously.

I wish I'd had the nerve to bop my brother when he was picking on me. I was NEVER allowed to win an argument with him. Now, I can't win an argument with my husband. I don't even try. He gets mad, I back down immediately. But, what if, when I was four, I had hit my brother when he was yanking my hair? What if, when I hit him, my Mom had backed ME up and said "Well, leave her alone". Would I be better equipped to defend myself now? (not physically, just in a typical argument)

Again, the big brother was being normal. Not out of line at all. I just don't think she was that far out of line either.
OK, for the sake of discussion (and not because I'm trying to pick a fight here, I'm genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on this,) would you agree then that if the situation was reversed that the brother would have been justified in hitting his sister when she refused to stop after he repeatedly told her to do so?

If you disagree that the brother would have justified in defending himself in that manner than why not? Because boys don't get to hurt girls that way?

I'm just not comfortable with that personally, which is why our house rule that nobody hits anyone, ever, for any reason. Because we believe that words should be used instead of fists or hands or feet or whatever.

Just curious to hear what you think.
post #34 of 123
Yeah, I have a serious "no means no" rule. I'm also big on "no hitting", just ftr.

I don't have 2 kids (yet...) but in the op's situation I have to imagine that I'd focus more on the unwanted kissing, and repeat the "no means no" rule. I'd be really serious, almost stern, about this.
Then, after that, I'd talk (not stern, more giving information) about not hitting, and other ways to defend yourself/get help, etc.

It's already been a discussion with ds (he asked) that you don't get in legal trouble if you hurt someone, and it's in self defense. (I went into detail about self defense, and doing what you reasonably have to do to defend yourself, etc).
post #35 of 123
I want to make sure that everyone who agreed that the girl was justified in hitting the boy would be fine with the reverse.

To sum up - you would be okay with a 4 year old boy slapping a 6 year old girl when she was trying to kiss him.


I'll sit back and wait on everyone to weigh in..........
post #36 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lab View Post
I want to make sure that everyone who agreed that the girl was justified in hitting the boy would be fine with the reverse.

To sum up - you would be okay with a 4 year old boy slapping a 6 year old girl when she was trying to kiss him.


I'll sit back and wait on everyone to weigh in..........
Yep! I have no issues with the boy vs girl thing here. I'm completely equal opportunity.

I'd probably be a little more upset if it was a six year old hitting a four year old. But, I would try to see both sides of it anyway. It would just bother be more if the oldest hit the youngest. I'm sure it's because I am the youngest in my family, and I see it more from the little sister's point of veiw.
post #37 of 123
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post #38 of 123
I would have higher expectations of the older dc. Girl or boy. I'd think, in general, an older child would be better able to control their impulses, and better be able to move away or find another way to stop the attempted kissing.
But, with only a 2 year difference (I'm thinking of my friend's kids, who are 3 and 5), I *think* I might deal with it close to the same way as I stated before- focus on the boundaries first, then move to the hitting. The only difference would be that if it were the older one hitting, I might have a more serious tone during the hitting talk than otherwise. Though thinking about it now, I'd probably have a serious/stern tone when talking about hitting in the first scenario as well.

(My kids will be 5yrs apart, so this is all in theory. I know that if my 9yo hit my 4yo, for any reason, THAT would NOT go over well with me!! Also, I only have experience with my ds, but talking to him about hitting is pretty much the only discipline that is necessary.)
post #39 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
is hitting a sibling ever acceptable?

acceptable? no. understandable? yes!
ITA. Hitting is not ok, but neither is forcefully giving someone a kiss. Both are equally wrong IMHO, although it is understandable that kids would act like that because they are learning boundaries.

I would talk to both of them about boundaries (no means no) and about coming to you if they're upset. I also wouldn't punish or scold either of them.
post #40 of 123
We allow a certain amount of self-defense in our home. Hitting is definitely not encouraged, nor is it "acceptable", in the sense that it's labeled an appropriate choice for retaliation, but sometimes, it happens. And in the OP's case, I wouldn't punish the slapper, but we would have a discussion on both sides about appropriate behaviors. My younger boy is much more aggressive and physical than my oldest. He will barrel into H's play to grab a toy, pull hair, bite, whatever it takes, to get the toy he wants. I've taught H that it's okay to grab B's hand, to physically stop him if B is hitting him, by pushing him away, etc.

While it's not okay for H to hit B, it's also not okay for H to allow himself to sit there and be a victim and cry and wait for someone else to sort it out. It's not fair to H to tell him that he just has to take it, because removing himself doesn't work either, B will follow him and continue to bother him physically, which is extremely upsetting to H. So, he is allowed to use physical contact, but they are absolutely not allowed or encouraged to smack each other. It happens, but not because we want it to.
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